[gwsat]

Too many HD channels, HBO comes to mind, engage in the distressing practice of showing movies originally formatted at 2.35:1 at 1.78:1. I understand that this is usually accomplished by cropping the outer 25% from the horizontal aspect of the film but that sometimes there is no cropping because the film is shown open matte, that is there is enough image on the original film to allow opening up its vertical aspect so that it's unnecessary to crop its horizontal aspect.


My question is this: Is there a way to readily tell the difference between a 2.35:1 film that has been cropped to 1.78:1 and one that has been converted to open matte? Thanks.

 

[NetworkTV]



Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat /forum/post/0


Too many HD channels, HBO comes to mind, engage in the distressing practice of showing movies originally formatted at 2.35:1 at 1.78:1. I understand that this is usually accomplished by cropping the outer 25% from the horizontal aspect of the film but that sometimes there is no cropping because the film is shown open matte, that is there is enough image on the original film to allow opening up its vertical aspect so that it's unnecessary to crop its horizontal aspect.


My question is this: Is there a way to readily tell the difference between a 2.35:1 film that has been cropped to 1.78:1 and one that has been converted to open matte? Thanks.

As far as I know, not unless you're familiar with the movie or have the DVD to compare it to. I suppose the framing (cramped sides as opposed to extra headroom) or the appearance of the opening credits may be a clue.


If you're worried about it, HBO and other movie channels may not be the bet venue to view movies. On the other hand, if you can't readily tell (i.e. - things being obviously cut off on the edges), don't worry about it and enjoy the movie.

 

[gwsat]



Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV /forum/post/0


If you're worried about it, HBO and other movie channels may not be the bet venue to view movies. On the other hand, if you can't readily tell (i.e. - things being obviously cut off on the edges), don't worry about it and enjoy the movie.

Easy for you to say.

I can't help finding unforgivable cropping 25% of a movie's horizontal aspect. Thus the advice to don't worry about it and enjoy the movie doesn't really resonate with me. The difficulty, of course, is that it's impossible to see what has been taken from the image. It's not as bad as losing nearly half of the horizontal aspect of a film that has been cropped from 2.35:1 to 4:3, but it's still unforgivable. It will come as no surprise that a lot of folks agree on this point.

 

[oleus]

sometimes you can get a hint of whether it's open matte or not just by looking at the framing and watching for any weird zoom/pans...


also i find open matte transfers are usually much sharper than crop-jobs...


-oleus

 

[NetworkTV]



Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat /forum/post/0


Easy for you to say.

I can't help finding unforgivable cropping 25% of a movie's horizontal aspect. Thus the advice to don't worry about it and enjoy the movie doesn't really resonate with me. The difficulty, of course, is that it's impossible to see what has been taken from the image. It's not as bad as losing nearly half of the horizontal aspect of a film that has been cropped from 2.35:1 to 4:3, but it's still unforgivable. It will come as no surprise that a lot of folks agree on this point.

That's why I said what I said. If it bothers you, watching movies on a channel like HBO is not going to be satisfying. Sorry, but they are notorious for cropping movies. However, if you can't tell what they did, why worry? Sorry, but unless something is obviously wrong with the framing, there's no reason to sweat it.


We all want OAR all the time, but that's not going to happen with HBO.


HBO crops a lot of movies. They also open the mattes on others. Either way, it's not OAR. If you're going to be a purist, you can't accept one but not the other.


If watching movies on HBO brings you pleasure, than enjoy the movie. Otherwise, cancel and put that fee each month toward saving for a Bluray or HD-DVD player.


The "O" in HBO doesn't stand for "OAR". It stands for Office, which is where the descision was made to crop movies.

 

[Chad R]

Look up the film on imdb.com and click on technical specs. It will tell you the oar.

 

[NetworkTV]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad R /forum/post/0


Look up the film on imdb.com and click on technical specs. It will tell you the oar.

But it won't tell you if the presentation is open matte or cropped. That's the issue.

 

[Ken H]



Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV /forum/post/0


As far as I know, not unless you're familiar with the movie or have the DVD to compare it to.

Bing!

 

[gwsat]



Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV /forum/post/0


But it [a movie's Technical Specs listed on IMDb] won't tell you if the presentation is open matte or cropped. That's the issue.

That's right. My inability to be able divine from the IMDb's technical specs information whether a movie was cropped or shown open matte was why I asked the question. I feared that there wasn't a fast, reliable way to get the information but I thought if there were some magic place to look, somebody here would know where it was. Anyway, thanks to all for your responses.

 

[gwsat]

This just in: There may be a way to identify some films that are shown in 16:9 on TV that are uncropped open matte. First some background.


My question that kicked off this thread was precipitated by my curiosity about whether The Fifth Element, which TNT ran in full frame 16:9 and I recorded, was cropped or open matte. I read the DVD Verdict review of the film, which revealed that it was filmed in Super 35 format and that such movies are transferred to 16:9 by including the top and bottom of the image, which had been matted out for 2.35:1 presentation. Good stuff. Further research revealed that any film shot in Super 35 that you see shown at 16:9 is showing you the entire image of the original film, without cropping:

http://www.widescreen.org/aspect_ratios.shtml#OpenMatte


The IMDb's technical spec page for The Fifth Element does, indeed, reveal that it was shot in Super 35. There is a handy link to all the other films and TV shows that were shot in Super 35. Live and learn, I guess. If there is something wrong with this analysis, I am sure that someone will let me know.

 

[TVOD]

So does this mean that one needs to check the internet after they watched the film to determine if they enjoyed it or not?

 

[Mind Voyager]



Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat /forum/post/0


This just in: There may be a way to identify some films that are shown in 16:9 on TV that are uncropped open matte. First some background.

There is one big catch (there may be others) to this logic. Even if the movie was filmed in Super35, chances are the visual effects were done at the presentation aspect ratio. It doesn't make sense financially to render images for something you know is going to be cut off. In these cases, it means shots without any visual effects might be open matte, but anything with visual effects shots is probably going to be cropped. In the case of Fifth Element, I think there may have been a FEW visual effects shots ;-)

 

[oleus]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind Voyager /forum/post/0


There is one big catch (there may be others) to this logic. Even if the movie was filmed in Super35, chances are the visual effects were done at the presentation aspect ratio. It doesn't make sense financially to render images for something you know is going to be cut off. In these cases, it means shots without any visual effects might be open matte, but anything with visual effects shots is probably going to be cropped. In the case of Fifth Element, I think there may have been a FEW visual effects shots ;-)

unless the movie is KING KONG, where even the visual effects were rendered 16:9 and cropped for the theater....

 

[HDTV888]

Just be grateful you're not watching the pan & scan 4:3 version, in SD !!!

 

[gwsat]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind Voyager /forum/post/0


There is one big catch (there may be others) to this logic. Even if the movie was filmed in Super35, chances are the visual effects were done at the presentation aspect ratio. It doesn't make sense financially to render images for something you know is going to be cut off. In these cases, it means shots without any visual effects might be open matte, but anything with visual effects shots is probably going to be cropped. In the case of Fifth Element, I think there may have been a FEW visual effects shots ;-)

Any difference in the way special effects might have shot wouldn't worry me much. What I hate, hate, hate, though, are scenes, usually containing several people, in which those who were on the far left or far right side of the scene, are cropped out of the televised version. It appears you can be pretty sure that won't happen when a movie shot in Super 35 is shown 16:9. By the way, the version of The Fifth Element that I watched on TNT in 16:9 was visually stunning, special effects and all. Highly recommended.

 

[Chad R]



Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV /forum/post/0


But it won't tell you if the presentation is open matte or cropped. That's the issue.

Sure it will. It will tell you if the film was shot Super 35, which can have mattes opened up, or if it's shot in Panavision that doesn't have mattes.

 

[Kram Sacul]



Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat /forum/post/0


Further research revealed that any film shot in Super 35 that you see shown at 16:9 is showing you the entire image of the original film, without cropping

Not exactly. A lot of opened up Super-35 films are cropped on the sides, sometimes severely. It can vary from shot to shot. Even the open matte King Kong has some horizontal cropping going on.


The 16x9 version of The Fifth Element is a hybrid of cropped and opened up shots. All the visual effects shots were rendered at 2.35:1 so they are cropped.

 

[BoSoxMole]



Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD /forum/post/0


So does this mean that one needs to check the internet after they watched the film to determine if they enjoyed it or not?

HAHA


Just watch Starz, they have been pretty good lately when it comes to OAR.

 

[Netmaster]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul /forum/post/0


The 16x9 version of The Fifth Element is a hybrid of cropped and opened up shots. All the visual effects shots were rendered at 2.35:1 so they are cropped.

So that means just about the whole movie is cropped from 2.35:1, cause that whole movie is one large visual effect.

 

[wcaughey]

THe HDNet Movies channel is by far the best for maintaining OAR. I love DVR'ing stuff off of it and watching it on my 2.35:1 CIH setup in all its glory.