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How will Samsung respond in 2020 ? Market disruption

1445 Views 28 Replies 13 Participants Last post by Panson, Aug 22, 2019

Ice Cold

Discussion Starter · Aug 20, 2019

Samsung the biggest player on the market is facing serious competition from Hisense and TCL both vertically integrated Chinese state supported giants IMO China is out to destabilize Samsung with Hisense on the low to middle tiers and TCL on the higher end tier of the market.
A fan and forum favorite the Samsung Q8FN or Q80R have 40-48 Dimming Zones TCL and Hisense have SKUs on the market for half Samsung’s pricepoint and 100 to 132 Zones. We can all see where this is heading.

My question for everyone is what does Samsung do in your opinion ?

P.S. we already know Samsung is selling off it’s LCDs Fabs in favor of newer OLED 10th Gen Fabs that’s one indicator.

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KD8118

· #2 · Aug 20, 2019

Ice Cold said:
Samsung the biggest player on the market is facing serious competition from Hisense and TCL both vertically integrated Chinese state supported giants IMO China is out to destabilize Samsung with Hisense on the low to middle tiers and TCL on the higher end tier of the market.
A fan and forum favorite the Samsung Q8FN or Q80R have 40-48 Dimming Zones TCL and Hisense have SKUs on the market for half Samsungâ€™️s pricepoint and 100 to 132 Zones. We can all see where this is heading.

My question for everyone is what does Samsung do in your opinion ?

P.S. we already know Samsung is selling off itâ€™️s LCDs Fabs in favor of newer OLED 10th Gen Fabs thatâ€™️s one indicator.

They can’t and won’t do anything in the short term. Lucky for them some people make worshipping them their religion! Next years flagship will be either slightly better or slightly worse than this years and they will still get away with selling it at a premium price. They still have a year or two left until the mainstream realizes they are really overpaying.

Kudos to them for taking decade old technology out of the trash heap and selling it for more than oled! They are so ahead of the game but it wasn’t destined to last. These companies simply don’t care, they started abandoning fald to make even more profits until oled came around and forced them to bring it back just like the Chinese are forcing them now.

They suddenly revived their quantum dot oled which was pretty much reported dead and they will take a turn at that in the upcoming years. Hopefully it is way more resilient to burn in and at least you will be getting a true flagship device to match the price!

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VA_DaveB

· #3 · Aug 20, 2019

Ice Cold said:
Samsung the biggest player on the market is facing serious competition from Hisense and TCL both vertically integrated Chinese state supported giants IMO China is out to destabilize Samsung with Hisense on the low to middle tiers and TCL on the higher end tier of the market.

This is how China operates. They can subsidize quasi companies like Hisense and TCL to take over market share, not just from Samsung, but from Sony and LG too. But, unlike Samsung, Sony and LG, they have no need to make a profit until they've taken over the market. Then they can raise prices as they like without competition. They've been doing this in so called "free trade" for years.

KD8118

· #4 · Aug 20, 2019

VA_DaveB said:
This is how China operates. They can subsidize quasi companies like Hisense and TCL to take over market share, not just from Samsung, but from Sony and LG too. But, unlike Samsung, Sony and LG, they have no need to make a profit until they've taken over the market. Then they can raise prices as they like without competition. They've been doing this in so called "free trade" for years.

And if they raise prices to a very "profitable" point Samsung and Sony will respond accordingly!

VA_DaveB

· #5 · Aug 20, 2019

KD8118 said:
And if they raise prices to a very "profitable" point Samsung and Sony will respond accordingly!

China won't raise prices that high. When they take over a market, they don't let it go. Remember, they also manufacture most of the LCD panels and ICs so they really don't need anybody else and can subsidize all levels of production.

WRXpilot

· #6 · Aug 20, 2019 (Edited)

You think Samsung didn't/doesn't have state support from the S. Korean government? Google 'Chaebol', and you'll see that Korea's economy through modernization is and has been largely driven by several, government favored, megaconglomerates. They are anything but laissez-faire capitalists over there.

The US's private capitalism system is not the only economic philosophy in the world, and other countries aren't obligated to play by our (made up) rules. If their systems result in better outcomes, why shouldn't they? Americans practically view our capitalist system as a religion, the one platonic 'ideal', but modern globalization is revealing its inherent weaknesses. Namely, that it values labor at basically nothing - which hasn't worked out well for the American worker (and subsequently middle class). Going any further would make this into a political post, but let's just say I'm not shedding any tears for Samsung.

The market disruption of cheap, good, FALD caused Samsung to get back into that game after heading in the dead-end direction of bright edge-lit mediocrity. They'll iterate on it, increasing zone count modestly, but I think they're really relying on exclusive features like anti-reflection and wide angle viewing to sell their high end sets for the typical home environment. Those are things home theater enthusiasts hardly ever give a thought to, but are crucially important in the average (or above average

) living room where these sets will actually live.

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KD8118

· #7 · Aug 20, 2019

VA_DaveB said:
China won't raise prices that high. When they take over a market, they don't let it go. Remember, they also manufacture most of the LCD panels and ICs so they really don't need anybody else and can subsidize all levels of production.

So they will basically offer us a good product for a reasonable price!!!!

! I don't want to get into the politics of this whole issue but I am definitely ok with what they are doing. A product that heavily competes with a top tier Samsung for 3x less. In addition they are pushing innovation so not only are they competing they shortly will be surpassing! Samsung has literally been recycling decades old technology for very premium prices.

I am all for creating a level playing field but Samsung wasn't charging the prices they were charging because they were at disadvantage. They were selling old but good technology at a very high premium.

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VA_DaveB

· #8 · Aug 20, 2019

WRXpilot said:
You think Samsung didn't/doesn't have state support from the S. Korean government? Google 'Chaebol', and you'll see that Korea's economy through modernization is and has been largely driven by several, government favored, megaconglomerates. They are anything but laissez-faire capitalists over there.

The US's private capitalism system is not the only economic philosophy in the world, and other countries aren't obligated to play by our (made up) rules. If their systems result in better outcomes, why shouldn't they? Americans practically view our capitalist system as a religion, the one platonic 'ideal', but modern globalization is revealing its inherent weaknesses. Namely, that it values labor at basically nothing - which hasn't worked out well for the American worker (and subsequently middle class). Going any further would make this into a political post, but let's just say I'm not shedding any tears for Samsung.

The market disruption of cheap, good, FALD caused Samsung to get back into that game after heading in the dead-end direction of bright edge-lit mediocrity. They'll iterate on it, increasing zone count modestly, but I think they're really relying on exclusive features like anti-reflection and wide angle viewing to sell their high end sets for the typical home environment. Those are things home theater enthusiasts hardly ever give a thought to, but are crucially important in the average (or above average ) living room where these sets will actually live.

I don't care about politics. What those who think like you need to do is see how the vast majority of the Chinese live compared to Americans and south Koreans - most Chinese (over 1 billion of them) are extremely poor peasants. Money that should be used to make their lives better is spent subsidizing the making cheap Hisense and TCL TVs among other products. Today's anti-capitalists don't acknowledge how poorly these other systems work for the common people. Anyway, I'm ending my participation in this thread before the moderators jump in. Like religion, political discussions are complete waste of time as nobody ever changes their mind.

So please, no more politics! Please agree to do the same before the hammer comes down!

mack73

· #9 · Aug 20, 2019 (Edited)

Samsung (as of yesterday) has responded by discontinuing QLED from their Korean factories (moving it all ot china factories, pushing QLEDs down the pecking order) and going all in on QD-OLEDs

https://www.digitaltrends.com/home-...um-oled-could-create-better-cheaper-oled-tvs/
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20190818000183

picturequality

· #10 · Aug 20, 2019

High end enthusiasts are not stupid that is why last year the lg c8 outsold the q9fn. At the end of the day Samsung is good at one thing marketing they take their average tvs and promote it like its the second coming of christ with gimmicks like qled and inflated prices, some people fall for it but when it comes to overall picture quality they still cant make a tv as good as Sony and Panasonic.

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KD8118

· #11 · Aug 20, 2019

mack73 said:
Samsung (as of yesterday) has responded by discontinuing QLED from their Korean factories (moving it all ot china factories, pushing QLEDs down the pecking order) and going all in on QD-OLEDs

https://www.digitaltrends.com/home-...um-oled-could-create-better-cheaper-oled-tvs/
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20190818000183

This is exciting that merits its own thread! What can we expect out of QD Oled? I remember reading once it will be less prone to burn in because it will be 4x more efficient. DOes this still hold true?

Ice Cold

Discussion Starter · #12 · Aug 21, 2019

VA_DaveB said:
This is how China operates. They can subsidize quasi companies like Hisense and TCL to take over market share, not just from Samsung, but from Sony and LG too. But, unlike Samsung, Sony and LG, they have no need to make a profit until they've taken over the market. Then they can raise prices as they like without competition. They've been doing this in so called "free trade" for years.

Yes and in the cellphone market China is backing Huawei.

Back to Samsung here’s more LCD issues.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1474...nding-south-korea-lcd-plant-due-to-oversupply

On a side note for everyone. All these for new 2019 Laptop have a 15” OLED Display

Gigabyte 15.6" AERO 15 OLED Gaming Laptop
Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Extreme 15” OLED
HP Spectre x360 15” OLED Laptop
Razer Blade 15” OLED
Alienware m15 OLED
Dell XPS 15 7590

I may have left 1 brand out but that’s ALOT of OLED Laptops and they are all using a variation of the same 15” OLED Display made by Samsung either 4K or 1080p or Touchscreen.

Samsung is definitely going full OLED. And they out priced LG to corner the 15” OLED market mainly as a play for an Apple order in hopes Apple goes with an OLED Display in its 15” MacBook Pro.

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LunaP

· #13 · Aug 21, 2019

Any potential issues w/ QD-OLED's based on current information or is it to new to tell currently? Personally I love the QLED line for PC Gaming and art so when I hear OLED first thing I think of is burn in possibilities which I've had/seen others get on other models as well as from seeing returns at Fry's due to the same, I just hope the tech is in a better state is all. Serious question though, as I'm stiill researching myself, but love hearing feedback from others.

I really do hope that future TV lines start implementing the option of DP though, like a single port since no iirc there's no licensing costs to it.

Ice Cold

Discussion Starter · #14 · Aug 21, 2019

LunaP said:
Any potential issues w/ QD-OLED's based on current information or is it to new to tell currently? Personally I love the QLED line for PC Gaming and art so when I hear OLED first thing I think of is burn in possibilities which I've had/seen others get on other models as well as from seeing returns at Fry's due to the same, I just hope the tech is in a better state is all. Serious question though, as I'm stiill researching myself, but love hearing feedback from others.

I really do hope that future TV lines start implementing the option of DP though, like a single port since no iirc there's no licensing costs to it.

No way TV manufacturers with HDMI 2.1 adoption and extra cost. Will spend all the R&D and effort and costs to add a 5th DP 1.4 Port I wish they would.

turnne1

· #15 · Aug 21, 2019

picturequality said:
High end enthusiasts are not stupid that is why last year the lg c8 outsold the q9fn. At the end of the day Samsung is good at one thing marketing they take their average tvs and promote it like its the second coming of christ with gimmicks like qled and inflated prices, some people fall for it but when it comes to overall picture quality they still cant make a tv as good as Sony and Panasonic.

But...the C8 outsold the Sony A9, as well, and the Sony is a better TV
So..price has something to do with driving sales volume and you didn't mention that

Warren

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turnne1

· #16 · Aug 21, 2019

mack73 said:
Samsung (as of yesterday) has responded by discontinuing QLED from their Korean factories (moving it all ot china factories, pushing QLEDs down the pecking order) and going all in on QD-OLEDs

https://www.digitaltrends.com/home-...um-oled-could-create-better-cheaper-oled-tvs/
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20190818000183

You can bet if that QD-OLED is any good Samsung will put a significant premium on its pricing...

Warren

picturequality

· #17 · Aug 21, 2019

turnne1 said:
But...the C8 outsold the Sony A9, as well, and the Sony is a better TV
So..price has something to do with driving sales volume and you didn't mention that

Warren

Because there is a thing called cost to benefits ratio the Sony and the LG are vertically identical if you decide to nit pick and pull hairs then the Sony would be slightly better but not enough to justify the price difference. Sony finally came to their senses so this year the c9 and the a9g are going for the same price.

dfa973

· #18 · Aug 21, 2019

Samsung needs to pour A LOT of money into QD-OLED before they even get to the same level as the LGs WOLED.

Sonia Chen of Samsung Display Company was asked if there will there be QD-OLED production in 2020. Her answer: "Optimistically, yeah."

"According to a new report from China, Samsung will indeed go ahead with its QD-OLED production plans, but at a slower pace than was first estimated. Samsung will only begin trial production towards the end of 2020, with real mass production on a new 10-Gen line only at around 2023.

source

We will have a long time to wait until Samsung delivers its OLED TV's..., and the price will be... interesting to see...

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KD8118

· #19 · Aug 21, 2019

picturequality said:
High end enthusiasts are not stupid that is why last year the lg c8 outsold the q9fn. At the end of the day Samsung is good at one thing marketing they take their average tvs and promote it like its the second coming of christ with gimmicks like qled and inflated prices, some people fall for it but when it comes to overall picture quality they still cant make a tv as good as Sony and Panasonic.

In my opinion the sale of a C8 Oled vs Q9fn Lcd means nothing. This is greatly oversimplifying the metric. You gotta keep in Mind the C8 is a high end television and their mainstream model. The Q9fn was a model released very late in the season and it was what I would call an "enthusiast niche model." Most people bought one of the other thousand models of "QLED" or thousand models of other LCD brands. You also have to keep in mind that basically any OLED is going to be a higher end product when that isnt the case for LCD at all. Meaning that you can buy an entry level OLED and it will rival and outperform any LCD on the market, Same cant be said for cheap LCD. I would say a more accurate metric would be to combine all the high performing LCD's across all brands vs all OLED's this would give you a more accurate picture. I dont know the answer to this but I would be shocked if OLED is killing LCD. I feel like the general consumer is not reflective of whats being discussed on these forums.

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BRAC

· #20 · Aug 21, 2019

KD8118 said:
In my opinion the sale of a C8 Oled vs Q9fn Lcd means nothing. This is greatly oversimplifying the metric. You gotta keep in Mind the C8 is a high end television and their mainstream model. The Q9fn was a model released very late in the season and it was what I would call an "enthusiast niche model." Most people bought one of the other thousand models of "QLED" or thousand models of other LCD brands. You also have to keep in mind that basically any OLED is going to be a higher end product when that isnt the case for LCD at all. Meaning that you can buy an entry level OLED and it will rival and outperform any LCD on the market, Same cant be said for cheap LCD. I would say a more accurate metric would be to combine all the high performing LCD's across all brands vs all OLED's this would give you a more accurate picture. I dont know the answer to this but I would be shocked if OLED is killing LCD. I feel like the general consumer is not reflective of whats being discussed on these forums.

Well said.

I agree, the high end enthusiast market is very likely less than 1%.

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