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Discussion Starter #1
Hi,


I am quite a newbie in DIY so please bear with me.. Recently I was informed that Pro speakers are far, far better than Home Theater speakers and I am sold on the idea. I was actually looking to buy completed speakers and then this forum has convinced me to take a look at DIY speakers, especially the 4pi kits. So, now I need more advice before embarking on this difficult journey (for me that is).


Basically, I am looking to build a HT room in the house i just bought and before the complete the renovation, i need to sort of figure out what sort of speaker systems to have (sizes, etc).


Ok, here are some questions.. I hope I can get some answers.


First, placements for my speakers:


- I intend to hide the speakers inside a purpose built cabinet (my room will be built by carpenters). I hope this would not distort the sounds.


1. What's the difference between the 4pis, and 7pis corner horn? as LR speakers? Do you have to place the 7pis in a corner or just anywhere (the name suggest that you need to place them in a corner)?


2. 4pis only goes up to 16khz, would this affect the normal playing of music? Or, would the JTR 12s be better option?


3. What sort of sub should i build to complement these speakers? Should I build the 12pi base horn, or say build one using the TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 18" DVC Subwoofer? Basically i don't know much about subwoofers and what i would need to complement these speakers..


4. Could I use a regular Receiver to power the 4pis (say if i use them as LCR, and the 2pis as surround?) or, do i need separete amps for them? If i use separate amps, how do i hook it up? do i still hook the source material to my receiver, and then output to the amps, and then output to the speakers? Wouldn't that be double amplification?


That's all i can think of for now..
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek
4pis only goes up to 16khz, would this affect the normal playing of music? Or, would the JTR 12s be better option?
Have you had your hearing tested lately?


I can't hear above 12khz. There are a number of on-line tests, google mosquito noise tests.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC
Have you had your hearing tested lately?


I can't hear above 12khz. There are a number of on-line tests, google mosquito noise tests.
I thought humans can hear up to 20khz? Anyways, you may be right, as we grow older we may not be able to hear the higher tones..
 

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Discussion Starter #4
i just tested.. i could hear 17khz quite well, then somehow the 18khz didn't appear.. i think it must be my tiny computer speakers not playing them..
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Ok, turned up the volume on my speakers.. i can now hear the highest frequency the test has which was 18khz quite well.. so, i think i could probably hear up to 20khz as well... not bad for this old guy!
 

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Now consider the frequencies (17-18k) and how much it contributes to the playback. The 4Pi will play to 20khz, just with a rolloff in output from 16khz on up.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Wayne Parham has replied to my thread on his forum and it's a pretty good one. So, i guess definitely go with the upgrade!

Quote:
All models with the (upgrade) DE250 compression driver reach 18kHz. They're smooth and extended, and offer the dynamics and low distortion that only a compression driver can provide. Other tweeters can hit 20kHz, and sometimes even more. But none can do it with the dynamics of a compression driver. I'd trade the dynamics for that last 2kHz any day
 

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If our theater speakers can't reach up to 20k, I'd doubt the little speakers from a computer are doing it. I'm sure you're hearing something, but wouldn't count on a computer speaker to be precise. In any case, I don't find that my ears appreciate extension up that high. Far too many other specs that do make a difference.
 

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Shrouding speakers in a cabinet can be very problematic, especially the ported variety. It sounds like you will have a dedicated space. That being the case, look at putting the speakers behind an AT screen. That's what theaters do.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrager
Shrouding speakers in a cabinet can be very problematic, especially the ported variety. It sounds like you will have a dedicated space. That being the case, look at putting the speakers behind an AT screen. That's what theaters do.
Well, I am still working out the problems of building my HT... you see, my HT is actually going to be my room...


I'll have to solve the problem of putting both a 65 inch LED tv and a Silver Screen at the same spot... (in front of my bed, which is where i will watch all my programming).


Now, my initial idea is this... build a very nice front stage, ie, the TV will be behind, near the wall, then a 'electronic roll down' silver screen of 12 feet (length) will roll down in front of the TV when i want to switch to watching Blu-Ray movies... can you imagine the setup? So, I can't put a speaker right behind the screen, because it'll be behind the TV too (which will block the sound)... I'll either use LR 4pis (as wayne said i prob don't need a center if the total length of the room is less than 20ft).. and if i need to use a center, then it'll below the screen, on the floor, behind the stage.. i'll use some carpentry wood like grills and black speaker cloth to hide the bottom of the stage... and the sides.. where i'll put the pi speakers.. basically the stage, or 'wall' would be about 3 feet from the front fall... so, you can walk behind it and it'll be a jumble of wires, receivers, etc, etc... from the front, it'll be very clean... i can't really explain it much.. maybe when i am done, i'll post up pics...
 

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I suggest a center for one big reason - it seems like all dolby sound has undefeatable drc when run without a center. It REALLY kills the sound bad!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher /forum/post/20908499


I suggest a center for one big reason - it seems like all dolby sound has undefeatable drc when run without a center. It REALLY kills the sound bad!

Subjectively I disagree 100% with "really kills the sound bad".


Since I never stop building speakers, I never get around to building a CC speaker and I always run phatom center. I fully understand it as a compromise but with controlled directivity designs there issue is not important to me.


Conclusion, I enjoy my waveguide setup in my HT room for many years now without a center. There has never been a moment where I thought having a phantom center "killed the sound bad"....not once. I have even thrown in an older waveguide design to check out the comparisons......the compromise to me isnt all that important at this time.


My recommendation is for the OP to build the L/R speakers first, listen, enjoy and if something is missing then build a CC.
 

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+1 post 12.


back when i was set up, a phantom placed the sound on the screen (mains about 1/3 up the screen height). maybe different folks have different sensitivity. with a center under the screen, i always thought it sounded fake and struggled to figured out why all the "wow" with center channel.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/20908949


Subjectively I disagree 100% with "really kills the sound bad".


Since I never stop building speakers, I never get around to building a CC speaker and I always run phatom center. I fully understand it as a compromise but with controlled directivity designs there issue is not important to me.


Conclusion, I enjoy my waveguide setup in my HT room for many years now without a center. There has never been a moment where I thought having a phantom center "killed the sound bad"....not once. I have even thrown in an older waveguide design to check out the comparisons......the compromise to me isnt all that important at this time.


My recommendation is for the OP to build the L/R speakers first, listen, enjoy and if something is missing then build a CC.

It destroys the volume I mean. the dynamics just go down the toilet. I like the sound but the bass and peaks just are ruined without a CC when you play in Dolby formats, there were long discussions on this.
 

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I know what you posted, I have read that many times actually but Im just saying it does not happen in my setup. The dynamics, the experience is still incredible using my old QSC clones or my new IWATA/TAD designs.



Maybe its depends more on the processor?? My pre/pros have been NAD T-175, Onkyo 885 and now the Marantz AV7005 and all of them gave me great performance with a phantom CC setup.


FWIW, I believe your experience to be true too....this is one of those subjective situations where everyone is right on the topic and the best thing the OP needs to do is actually test for himself.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/20909134


I know what you posted, I have read that many times actually but Im just saying it does not happen in my setup. The dynamics, the experience is still incredible using my old QSC clones or my new IWATA/TAD designs.



Maybe its depends more on the processor?? My pre/pros have been NAD T-175, Onkyo 885 and now the Marantz AV7005 and all of them gave me great performance with a phantom CC setup.


FWIW, I believe your experience to be true too....this is one of those subjective situations where everyone is right on the topic and the best thing the OP needs to do is actually test for himself.

I used an onkyo 805 and know the 05 85 series for sure has DRC with dolby and no center
 

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You will want the 4pi's, not the 7pis. The 7pi's require placement in corners so the room must conform to this. It doesn't sound like this will work for you. 4pi's are not far off in performance and are less expensive.


I would suggest going the upgraded driver route if you can. The DE250 and 2226H are great drivers.


Don't concern yourself with the 18khz dropoff. It is completely insignificant.


The 12pi sub is not really useful for home theater. It only extends to about 30-40hz I believe and it is enormous. It is intended for concert duty where you need 130-140db from 40hz and up.


Your other sub options really depend on budget and space. I'm a fan of sealed subs if you can afford it. The LMS 5400 is a great driver if you have a big budget and need huge output in a small box you can't beat it. If you have more space uber drivers like that aren't necessary.


It really depends on what drivers you can get in your country. If you can get an idea of that and the space you can allocate to boxes, coming up with something isn't hard. Subwoofers are pretty damn simple to be honest.


The 4pi can easily be driven by any HT receiver. They are far more efficient than a typical hifi speaker and they are an easy load.


JTR vs Pi? Well, I'd estimate that the upgraded Pi has more expensive and superior drivers. I also prefer the horn 2-way vs a coax setup. It will have superior directivity. They both sell direct fully built. The JTR T8 HT is $1100. The upgrade 4pi is $1380.


Given your location, if you can build a box, I'd go with the pi kit for sure. You will save a ton on shipping costs alone.
 

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Discussion Starter #18

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/20908949



My recommendation is for the OP to build the L/R speakers first, listen, enjoy and if something is missing then build a CC.

Thanks, I do intend to do this first.. if i am not satisfied with the center, then i'll see about building another 4pi, or, maybe a 2pis would do for a center??

Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan /forum/post/20910100


I would suggest going the upgraded driver route if you can. The DE250 and 2226H are great drivers.

Already going the upgraded driver route.. do you think it's important to upgrade the capacitors? that'll cost over $200 alone.. do you think it's worth it? or, get the $50 upgrade instead?

Quote:
Your other sub options really depend on budget and space. I'm a fan of sealed subs if you can afford it. The LMS 5400 is a great driver if you have a big budget and need huge output in a small box you can't beat it. If you have more space uber drivers like that aren't necessary.

I am thinking of building 2, 3pi subs.. to be wired behind the two, 4pis i am going to build.. what do you think? if i need more base, then perhaps build another couple 3pis subs to be placed the back of the room, opposing to the first 2... would 4 of these be the equivalent of the uber LMS 5400?

Quote:
It really depends on what drivers you can get in your country. If you can get an idea of that and the space you can allocate to boxes, coming up with something isn't hard. Subwoofers are pretty damn simple to be honest.

I can get the Eminence LAB12.


Do you think building a sealed sub with that is better than the ported one as specified with the 3pi sub? Also, maybe instead of sealed or ported, use a radiator? I am still new at this.. .


Quote:
JTR vs Pi? Well, I'd estimate that the upgraded Pi has more expensive and superior drivers. I also prefer the horn 2-way vs a coax setup. It will have superior directivity. They both sell direct fully built. The JTR T8 HT is $1100. The upgrade 4pi is $1380.


Given your location, if you can build a box, I'd go with the pi kit for sure. You will save a ton on shipping costs alone.

I am definitely going the 4pi route.. Now, looking for a local carpenter to build the boxes and I just located the JBL distributor, who said they didn' have the 2226h drivers... and they need to ship it in, which'll cost me a bomb.. i may as well have wayne ship it direct to me via 'sea'...


you meantioned the tripple 8', what about the triple 12s? would they be far better than the 4pis?
 

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Discussion Starter #20

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic1! /forum/post/20911202


Anyone else think these speakers are overkill for a bedroom?

Haha... yeah... i guess they may be..... but then if i hide them properly behind a properly crafted hometheater, it'll be great! I want BIG sound!


But then my bedroom is huge, 20'x30', the screen will be 12 feet across!
 
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