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thought i might add my input into the CC talk.


When I first got into home audio I had a pair of Paradigm Atoms with a PDR-8 and ran a phantom center. Did i miss it at the time? not at all...in fact i barely noticed anything missing. However, shortly after i decided that I wanted to add a center as I could not get two rears going in my small apartment and wanted to add to the system


I was suprised at the difference it made as I felt like it really helped with the clarity of conversations and the sound stage...However i think the reason it helped more than anything it is made my Atoms more focused as not as much was trying to come through.


That said, if I was running something like what penngray is where he has the horns and speakers that would kick my little Atoms to kingdom come....i dont think i would feel the same way for adding a center...would it help? yes....but i dont see it as a neccesity
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran /forum/post/20912786


thought i might add my input into the CC talk.


When I first got into home audio I had a pair of Paradigm Atoms with a PDR-8 and ran a phantom center. Did i miss it at the time? not at all...in fact i barely noticed anything missing. However, shortly after i decided that I wanted to add a center as I could not get two rears going in my small apartment and wanted to add to the system


I was suprised at the difference it made as I felt like it really helped with the clarity of conversations and the sound stage...However i think the reason it helped more than anything it is made my Atoms more focused as not as much was trying to come through.


That said, if I was running something like what penngray is where he has the horns and speakers that would kick my little Atoms to kingdom come....i dont think i would feel the same way for adding a center...would it help? yes....but i dont see it as a neccesity

Same here, at first, and still at times (or some scenes in particular), I prefer a phantom center as mine cant come close to keeping up with the t-12's. All in all however, it all comes down to staging with me. It is MUCH improved with the center, as well as a little less noticable compression at times.
 

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Discussion Starter #24

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio /forum/post/20916168


Same here, at first, and still at times (or some scenes in particular), I prefer a phantom center as mine cant come close to keeping up with the t-12's. All in all however, it all comes down to staging with me. It is MUCH improved with the center, as well as a little less noticable compression at times.

Since you have the tripple 12s... can you review it? How does it compare to other speakers you have had?


Have you also heard the 4pis?
 

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Havent heard the 4pi's but I plan on building the cabs once it gets a little colder outside. I really want to spend the time to get them perfect, so I can hopefully stain or finish the exterior rather than paint em black for a little more appeal.


The triple 12's are spectacular. While my experience with listening to these types of pro-based speakers "in-home" Is limited, I have had some other guys from the forum over that were more than impressed by their smoothness. Both fellas are coming from klipsch-based system, one with Khorns, the other with lascalas. They both mentioned that the t12's really bring out the ambient soundtracks better than what they have, but dont have quite as much "zero to 100 type" sound. So far in my experience, these far exceed any other consumer based product I have ever heard, and ive heard plenty of those
It's not even fair to compare them!!


playing music or movies at reference level, I get zero distortion, its crazy, the speakers are giving you so much sound, yet the mids are barely even moving! Concerts on the system are silky, and female vocals are spot on. I probably do 50/50 music to movies and dont feel like ive left anything on the table with these for standard stereo listening.
 

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Phantom center can be just as good IMHO, but in situations where you may have many people scattered throughout the room at various listening positions the center speaker helps anchor the sound to the screen better when someone may be quite a bit closer to one main or the other. This is the sort of situation I have ocassionally so I run a center. If you have only a couple of main positions that are centered on the screen and equidistant with the mains, then phantom can work out much better.


Some recievers have non defeatable DRC with phantom center mode?
I had no idea. That would be a deal killer for me. I never engage DRC if it can be helped.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci /forum/post/20916456


Phantom center can be just as good IMHO, but in situations where you may have many people scattered throughout the room at various listening positions the center speaker helps anchor the sound to the screen better when someone may be quite a bit closer to one main or the other. This is the sort of situation I have ocassionally so I run a center. If you have only a couple of main positions that are centered on the screen and equidistant with the mains, then phantom can work out much better.


Some recievers have non defeatable DRC with phantom center mode?
I had no idea. That would be a deal killer for me. I never engage DRC if it can be helped.

Ricci -


If what you are saying is correct then this just made my day!


Phantom center sounds best in my small room/area but the DRC thing KILLED me...


Even PCM with the player handing decoding the volume/dynamics difference from DTS to Dolby was HUUUUUUGE when running a Phantom Center. Literally I had to stop watching all dolby based movies and when I looked into it my research confirmed that this was a dolby limiter that we can't get around.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek /forum/post/20911169


Thanks, I do intend to do this first.. if i am not satisfied with the center, then i'll see about building another 4pi, or, maybe a 2pis would do for a center??




Already going the upgraded driver route.. do you think it's important to upgrade the capacitors? that'll cost over $200 alone.. do you think it's worth it? or, get the $50 upgrade instead?




I am thinking of building 2, 3pi subs.. to be wired behind the two, 4pis i am going to build.. what do you think? if i need more base, then perhaps build another couple 3pis subs to be placed the back of the room, opposing to the first 2... would 4 of these be the equivalent of the uber LMS 5400?




I can get the Eminence LAB12.


Do you think building a sealed sub with that is better than the ported one as specified with the 3pi sub? Also, maybe instead of sealed or ported, use a radiator? I am still new at this.. .





I am definitely going the 4pi route.. Now, looking for a local carpenter to build the boxes and I just located the JBL distributor, who said they didn' have the 2226h drivers... and they need to ship it in, which'll cost me a bomb.. i may as well have wayne ship it direct to me via 'sea'...


you meantioned the tripple 8', what about the triple 12s? would they be far better than the 4pis?

Like the others have said, a phantom center can work well. I'd suggest trying that.


I would skip the upgraded caps. The difference is questionable in general and IMO not worth the money.


I don't know anything about the 3pi subwoofer. Do you know what driver it uses?


How big is your room? A single LMS 5400 might get the job done. It is very expensive and heavy though.


The LAB12 is a nice driver. You can probably also get the LAB15. These are likely best done in a ported alignment. Passive radiator is another option but you would need to source those too.


The toughest part with all of this is sourcing parts in your country.


The T12 will likely have better directivity control vs the T8 but still not on par with the 4pi. All three are excellent speakers designed by guys who know their stuff.
 

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DRC = Dynamic Range Compression, its some Dolby invention that makes Wives happy and all of us go nuts





We run "phantom Center" by going into the AVR setup and set the CC channel to "NONE". Its usually where we set the speaker to large or small.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray
DRC = Dynamic Range Compression, its some Dolby invention that makes Wives happy and all of us go nuts


Gah! No way I'll even bring up to my Wife that my receiver supports DRC/night mode. If anything I want DRE (dynamic range expansion)
That's the whole point of home theater!! Heck, "If you ain't jumpin', my theater needs sumpthin'!" (TM)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray
DRC = Dynamic Range Compression, its some Dolby invention that makes Wives happy and all of us go nuts





We run "phantom Center" by going into the AVR setup and set the CC channel to "NONE". Its usually where we set the speaker to large or small.
So penny - just want to confirm. You notice no difference from Dolby to DTS in terms of range/volume?


It was night and day for me when I didn't have a center - It is actually the reason I sold my quintuple 8's. I couldn't keep all 3 so I sold 1 and then the other 2 sounded soooo weak and compressed when watching Dolby so I just gave up and went with 3 cheap speakers
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher
So penny - just want to confirm. You notice no difference from Dolby to DTS in terms of range/volume?


It was night and day for me when I didn't have a center - It is actually the reason I sold my quintuple 8's. I couldn't keep all 3 so I sold 1 and then the other 2 sounded soooo weak and compressed when watching Dolby so I just gave up and went with 3 cheap speakers


Im saying that I put a BD in my PS3 and press play. I do send PCM (my PS3 has to send PCM to get HD audio) to my Pre/pro (Marantz AV7005) and I (or anyone else in my room) have a great movie experience.


There has never been a comment ever in my room about the CC not being there and there has never been lacking dynamics that is for sure. Dialog has always been incredible in that room.


I do not know the last time I even checked what format to tell you the truth. I insert disk and press play. I stopped fussing over formats many years ago since most default to what should be high quality format in the first place.


btw, its not "penny", penn or penngray
 

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Roger Dressler posted this a few years ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler
Downmixing in the DD chip turns on the DRC. But no self-respecting AV processor does the phantom mode inside the DD chip, since it would then not be available for all the other sources, like PCM, DTS, etc. The bass management stage is also where the "speaker management" is performed, thus easily avoiding DRC. If "many" means rarely, then I agree.
Since that time, there has been evidence that some receivers still use the DD chip for the phantom center. Blu-rays now almost exclusively use DTS-HD so this shouldn't be a problem for anyone going forward.


I use a phantom center with my HTPC doing the processing and love it. To me, a phantom center always sounds better when compared to a horizontal center. With a vertical center they sound the same. However, if they sound the same why use the center? The only time a phantom center sounds bad in my setup is if I am outside the space between my mains and too close to the mains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher
It was night and day for me when I didn't have a center - It is actually the reason I sold my quintuple 8's. I couldn't keep all 3 so I sold 1 and then the other 2 sounded soooo weak and compressed when watching Dolby so I just gave up and went with 3 cheap speakers
It would probably have been cheaper and sounded better to just get a different receiver.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome /forum/post/20917750


Roger Dressler posted this a few years ago:




Since that time, there has been evidence that some receivers still use the DD chip for the phantom center. Blu-rays now almost exclusively use DTS-HD so this shouldn't be a problem for anyone going forward.


I use a phantom center with my HTPC doing the processing and love it. To me, a phantom center always sounds better when compared to a horizontal center. With a vertical center they sound the same. However, if they sound the same why use the center? The only time a phantom center sounds bad in my setup is if I am outside the space between my mains and too close to the mains.


It would probably have been cheaper and sounded better to just get a different receiver.


It wasn't the reciever. I used PCM from the player and confirmed with others that they had tried the same but nothing works
 

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Discussion Starter #37

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio /forum/post/20916421


Havent heard the 4pi's but I plan on building the cabs once it gets a little colder outside. I really want to spend the time to get them perfect, so I can hopefully stain or finish the exterior rather than paint em black for a little more appeal.

Great, please write a comparison between the 4pis vs the 12s once you have them made. Apparently no one has both at the same time yet, so there's no real showdown... would be great to be able to compare the 4pis vs the catalysts as well..

Quote:
The triple 12's are spectacular. While my experience with listening to these types of pro-based speakers "in-home" Is limited, I have had some other guys from the forum over that were more than impressed by their smoothness. Both fellas are coming from klipsch-based system, one with Khorns, the other with lascalas. They both mentioned that the t12's really bring out the ambient soundtracks better than what they have, but dont have quite as much "zero to 100 type" sound. So far in my experience, these far exceed any other consumer based product I have ever heard, and ive heard plenty of those
It's not even fair to compare them!!

Great review... nice stuff... thanks, now, i know how much difference there is between pro audio and what you get commercially as 'hometheater speakers'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan /forum/post/20916783


I would skip the upgraded caps. The difference is questionable in general and IMO not worth the money.

Thanks... i may just do that and save a pretty penny (over $200/speaker).

Quote:
I don't know anything about the 3pi subwoofer. Do you know what driver it uses?

I think the LAB 12.

Quote:
How big is your room? A single LMS 5400 might get the job done. It is very expensive and heavy though.

I think I might go with the multiple 12 inchers instead of one giant 15 incher...

Quote:
The toughest part with all of this is sourcing parts in your country.

Exactly right.. I have been running around sourcing.. but not getting very lucky. Shipping these drivers from the US will cost way too much, unless I buy them in bulk and ship by sea and wait a couple months for them to arrive.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek
Great, please write a comparison between the 4pis vs the 12s once you have them made. Apparently no one has both at the same time yet, so there's no real showdown... would be great to be able to compare the 4pis vs the catalysts as well..




Great review... nice stuff... thanks, now, i know how much difference there is between pro audio and what you get commercially as 'hometheater speakers'.
It might be a while before I can get them done, I have a surround build to finish first and if I dont like them, I will probably ship one off to get some crossover tweaking done (Out of my league, I stick to wood
) and get them nice a dialed in first!! Im really lacking right now on the surround area.


Just so your 100% clear, while the pro-audio or controlled directivity/compression driver type boxes I feel are far superior to consumer based products, the klipsch systems my friends were comparing to are also their "pro-type" lines, definitely NOT the standard consumer klipsch line you see in BB. This just goes to prove my point regardless, that the triple 12's are a little smoother than other pro-type speakers, at least in their opinion.


It is just amazing to hear a soundtrack on a movie you are familiar with at high levels, with ZERO speaker compression or audible distortion. There just really is nothing like it. Either of these speaker systems will give you more than you could ever ask for.
 

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Discussion Starter #39

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio /forum/post/20921207


It is just amazing to hear a soundtrack on a movie you are familiar with at high levels, with ZERO speaker compression or audible distortion. There just really is nothing like it. Either of these speaker systems will give you more than you could ever ask for.

Now, I am really curious to read a review of a comparison between the tripple 12s, the Catalysts, and the 4pis... since these are the 3 most recommended... no one seems to want to review them in comparison of one another for some reasons.. i think perhaps no one wants to 'piss' off one or another of the makers.. haha..
 

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FWIW, after some long conversations with Wayne Parham from Pi Speakers. Its his 3Pi designs with the DE250/TD12S drivers that is the best horn design he has EVER heard.


I would go with the TD12 series woofers from www.aespeakers.com running that high over the JBL 2226 drivers 24/7....there is no doubt about their differences in my tests and I own both drivers.


As for the comparisons. The Catalysts are fully active designs and Mark Seaton is a another great designer. All three will give you something you have never had before so in the end all three will easily exceed your requirements. Since all three exceed your requirements then you should pick the one that is the most cost effect solution for you.
 
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