AVS Forum banner

41 - 60 of 89 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,837 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/20925682


FWIW, after some long conversations with Wayne Parham from Pi Speakers. Its his 3Pi designs with the DE250/TD12S drivers that is the best horn design he has EVER heard.


I would go with the TD12 series woofers from www.aespeakers.com running that high over the JBL 2226 drivers 24/7....there is no doubt about their differences in my tests and I own both drivers.


As for the comparisons. The Catalysts are fully active designs and Mark Seaton is a another great designer. All three will give you something you have never had before so in the end all three will easily exceed your requirements. Since all three exceed your requirements then you should pick the one that is the most cost effect solution for you.

Penn, so care to go a little further into your discussion with wayne parham on the 3pi and its benefits over the 4?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26,476 Posts
There is nothing technical about it. I never asked much about the 4 Pi. I do know that if the waveguide/CD is the same then the XO point on the 4Pi is too high for a 15" driver IMO . Wayne and others will disagree probably (Im okay with that!!
) but in the 2-way waveguide world where the XO point is >= 1KHz a 12" woofer is the sweet spot for SQ.


I really only asked about 3pi XOs because I have the DE250/TD12S drivers. He said I require the H290 horn (QSC would be too different) and his plans to ensure the XOs work. He commented about the DE250/H290/TD12S being his no cost horn performance design choice. I asked about the JBL K2 and he said while the K2 is a fine speaker. The AE drivers are special drivers. I definitely agree with him on the drivers, Im a huge fan of everything John J does at AESpeakers.com, Im also a HUGE fan of manufacturer/small business in America (or Canada)



From Wayne...
Quote:
Build as shown, and you have a

world-class, price-no-object loudspeaker. The three Pi with TD12S and

DE250/H290 is the best "waveguide" speaker I've ever heard or measured. No

warts, smooth, perfect pattern and excellent response. Sorry, that;s kind

of bragging, I know. But this one sets the standard. It's that good.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,957 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek /forum/post/20925222


Now, I am really curious to read a review of a comparison between the tripple 12s, the Catalysts, and the 4pis... since these are the 3 most recommended... no one seems to want to review them in comparison of one another for some reasons.. i think perhaps no one wants to 'piss' off one or another of the makers.. haha..

I'd guess that nobody has put all three side by side. Beyond that, they are all going to be more similar than different. The JTR and Seaton's are both very similar as they share the same core design. The Catalyst uses better drivers and built-in DSP. I think they cost 2-3x as much. I believe Seaton is actually involved in the design of the JTRs. I'd expect their performance to exceed the JTR's but probably have similar voicing.


There are fundamental differences between a horn 2-way and a coaxial MCM design. The coaxial avoids any vertical null issues, but sacrifices horizontal directivity control.


You might follow Penn's advice on the Pi3 with TD12S. I don't know how hard it would be to get the TD12S driver shipped. AE obviously has no distributor in Malaysia so the JBL might be a better route for you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26,476 Posts

Quote:
AE obviously has no distributor in Malaysia

I forgot to note where the OP was
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,618 Posts
Discussion Starter #45

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/20925682


FWIW, after some long conversations with Wayne Parham from Pi Speakers. Its his 3Pi designs with the DE250/TD12S drivers that is the best horn design he has EVER heard.

Damnit!!! Now, i can't decide whether i want to build the 4pis or the 3pis... I thought of the 4pis because they are bigger (thus better??) now, you have thrown a wrench into my thinking...


About exceeding my expectations.. Of course I want that.. but I also want 'the best'... so, that i don't need to think about upgrades a year down the road!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,618 Posts
Discussion Starter #46

Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan /forum/post/20925866


You might follow Penn's advice on the Pi3 with TD12S. I don't know how hard it would be to get the TD12S driver shipped. AE obviously has no distributor in Malaysia so the JBL might be a better route for you.

Yes, now you got me thinking about 3pi instead of the 4pi.. if it sounds better, and smaller, it's definitely preferable... The 3pi also looks better.


how much is the TD12S?


BTW: I found the JBL distributor in Malaysia but they didn't have the 2226H in stock either.. so they'll have to ship it in, which is the same thing as if I shipped it in myself.. .it'll cost just as much, so at this point any driver would mean i'll have to ship it in.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26,476 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,407 Posts
actually, the 3pi box is bigger than the 4pi, even though the 4pi uses 15" woof versus 12" woof in the 3pi.


i, too, at one point had a long (self) debate between the 3pi and 4pi but i think the smaller box of the 4pi edged out the 3pi.


also, one could go seal with the 3pi with a 2cf box and the TD12S/M driver.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,618 Posts
Discussion Starter #49
I just noticed something too:


Sensitivity 3pi = 96, 4pi = 98


Does this make a lot of difference?


If my listening distance is 5meters (15-17 feet). I heard someone said that reference level is 105 decibels?


So, let's say I am playing with the Onkyo receiver (top of the end), it'll give up to 145 watts/channel, so, potentially i can add about 7 decibels to the speakers.


3pi = 96+7 = 104 at 1 meter.


At 2 meter (minus 6) = 98

at 4 meter (minus another 6) = 92

at 5 meter, maybe left with 90 decibels (the 4pis would be 92)


would that be enough?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,618 Posts
Discussion Starter #50

Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz /forum/post/20926035


actually, the 3pi box is bigger than the 4pi, even though the 4pi uses 15" woof versus 12" woof in the 3pi.


i, too, at one point had a long (self) debate between the 3pi and 4pi but i think the smaller box of the 4pi edged out the 3pi.


also, one could go seal with the 3pi with a 2cf box and the TD12S/M driver.

So, have you built yours yet? If so, how does it sound? Did u use the upgraded kit?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,837 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek /forum/post/20925883


Damnit!!! Now, i can't decide whether i want to build the 4pis or the 3pis... I thought of the 4pis because they are bigger (thus better??) now, you have thrown a wrench into my thinking...


About exceeding my expectations.. Of course I want that.. but I also want 'the best'... so, that i don't need to think about upgrades a year down the road!

Good luck ever finding the bold statement above! haha IMO it is unattainable, theres always something!!


looks like i need to give Wayne a call myself regarding this issue, id love to pick his brain a little more
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,618 Posts
Discussion Starter #52
The fully upgraded 3pi cost $1020


BTW: There's another driver option: Woofer AE TD12S + Apollo (whatever Apollo is)


--


three π kit

- Compression driver B&C DE250

- Woofer AE TD12S + Apollo

- Inductors 15 guage

- Capacitors Audience AuriCaps

- Resistors Mills $320.00

+$75.00

+$350.00

+$20.00

+$225.00

+$30.00
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26,476 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek /forum/post/20926126


I just noticed something too:


Sensitivity 3pi = 96, 4pi = 98


Does this make a lot of difference?


If my listening distance is 5meters (15-17 feet). I heard someone said that reference level is 105 decibels?


So, let's say I am playing with the Onkyo receiver (top of the end), it'll give up to 145 watts/channel, so, potentially i can add about 7 decibels to the speakers.


3pi = 96+7 = 104 at 1 meter.


At 2 meter (minus 6) = 98

at 4 meter (minus another 6) = 92

at 5 meter, maybe left with 90 decibels (the 4pis would be 92)


would that be enough?


Either design plays very well way past 110dB. It comes down to needing 32Watts or 64Watts to get 114dB
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,618 Posts
Discussion Starter #54

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio /forum/post/20926132


Good luck ever finding the bold statement above! haha IMO it is unattainable, theres always something!!

LOL! You're right of course!


But no reason not to reach for the sky!


Oh, and after you picked more of Wayne's brains, please share!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26,476 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek /forum/post/20926150


The fully upgraded 3pi cost $1020


BTW: There's another driver option: Woofer AE TD12S + Apollo (whatever Apollo is)


--


three π kit

- Compression driver B&C DE250

- Woofer AE TD12S + Apollo

- Inductors 15 guage

- Capacitors Audience AuriCaps

- Resistors Mills $320.00

+$75.00

+$350.00

+$20.00

+$225.00

+$30.00

Do not waste $$$ on XO upgrades, IMO!! The $645 above is what the upgraded DE250/TD12S kit costs. I see zero scientific logic to spend more then that. If you can build a box, you will have a speaker worth $3 to $4K (DIY costs * 4 or 5 is what the value comes out to usually). The drivers/measurements will be better then the JTR design and similar to that of the Catalyst.





Also "Apollo" upgrade just means the TD12S will take a beating better. Its completely usless upgrade in an home environment. TD12S apollo drivers are usefull if very high SPL is needed for live events.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,618 Posts
Discussion Starter #56

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/20926151


Either design plays very well way past 110dB. It comes down to needing 32Watts or 64Watts to get 114dB

Ok, i think I calculated wrongly.. can you break down how you get to 114db?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,407 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek /forum/post/20926130


So, have you built yours yet? If so, how does it sound? Did u use the upgraded kit?

not yet. ran out of funds. built too much recently.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,837 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek /forum/post/20926152


LOL! You're right of course!


But no reason not to reach for the sky!


Oh, and after you picked more of Wayne's brains, please share!

You know I will, im sure he may be getting slightly frustrated with all my waffling though


Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/20926166


Do not waste $$$ on XO upgrades, IMO!! The $645 above is what the upgraded DE250/TD12S kit costs. I see zero scientific logic to spend more then that. If you can build a box, you will have a speaker worth $3 to $4K (DIY costs * 4 or 5 is what the value comes out to usually). The drivers/measurements will be better then the JTR design and similar to that of the Catalyst.





Also "Apollo" upgrade just means the TD12S will take a beating better. Its completely usless upgrade in an home environment. TD12S apollo drivers are usefull if very high SPL is needed for live events.

agreed on the xover upgrades, wayne has even expressed as much, he just makes available for those that care enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz /forum/post/20926172


not yet. ran out of funds. built too much recently.


Yea I hear ya on that!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,618 Posts
Discussion Starter #59
Ok, looks like this thread has turned into everything Pi speakers, I may as well as this other question that's still nagging at me..


I am thinking of also getting the 3pi subwoofers... so, here are some questions:


1. It's a passive sub, and wayne suggested building 2, each hooked up to one of the 4pi (or 3pi) and placed right behind.. now, how do you hook it up to a main speaker? I mean, it's a passive subwoofer, so it needs an additional amp to power it.. so, let's say your 'out' from the receiver, to the 3pi, then how to go from there to the amp to the subwoofer? Plus, do I need to get additional crossovers for it? All quite confusing.


2. Can I turn the 3pi subwoofer into a 'powered sub'? If so, what plate amp would you suggest and what modifications need to make to the 3pi design?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26,476 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek /forum/post/20926167


Ok, i think I calculated wrongly.. can you break down how you get to 114db?


32Watts is +15dB

Pi4 will be playing at 113dB

pi3 will be playing at 111dB


64Watts is +18dB

Pi4 will be playing at 116dB

pi3 will be playing at 114dB
 
41 - 60 of 89 Posts
Top