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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi...


Is anyone using a Denon 2910 with their HT1000?


I just picked up a 2910 from my local tweeter, and will be hooking it into the system in the next day or so.


I am wondering if anyone has any setup up info they would like to share?


If not, I will be sure to post any tips I can share once I have had some play time.
 

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I just set up a 2910 over the weekend on my SP7205. I run it via DVI to the PJ. This player is an upgrade to my Sammy 931 I was running. Since my PJ is native 720 I set the 2910 to output 720 to match the PJ's native res. I was less than thrilled with the PQ. I was getting a lot of macro-blocking in dim scene's. I then switched to 1080 and noticed a sizable improvement to the PQ. This has me perplexed that 1080 going to a native rate 720 PJ would look better than 720. At 1080 the image is crisper and most of the macro-blocking disappears. While the image (outputting 1080 only) is an improvement over my 931 it is not night and day by any means. Outputting 720 the macro-blocking makes it worse than the 931. I have also noticed a slight green push with this player. The good news is, sound track is right on. The 931 had a terrible delay problem with DTS. Overall I had expected a bit more from a player in this price range.


I am curious to see what you think.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I have just gotten an hour or so with the 2910 hooked to the HT1000.


My first observation, the 720p/1080i resolution/clarity is easily double that of 480i/480p from the Panny RP-91 via component. The 2910 at 480p via DVI seems very similar to the RP-91 at 480i/480p.


The 2910 has a nice SETUP adjustment under the PICTURE MODE SET option, that allows switching to 0 IRE, which helps take the black level down. There is also a VIDEO SETUP for HDMI/DVI Black Level, with NORMAL and ENHANCED options. This choice expands the grayscale range from 16-235 to 0-246, and maybe the meant 0-256. Ssetting to Enhanced also lowers the black level on the DVI output.


Under the PICTURE MODE, there is a wide range of image adjustments. Some that work over DVI and others that do not. I'm not clear yet on what works and does not, but so far of those controls that do work over DVI, I am only changing the SET IRE mode to "0" from "7.5" The other controls are pretty impressive, but I have to figure out when they work.


I am not seeing any difference between 720P and 1080i. I have looked at complex images, zooming into the image as much as possible, and they appear identical. The only difference I have noticed, is in the ability to adjust over scan. The 1080i output automatically sets the HT1000 at 5%. The 720p setting allows me to drop overscvan down to 0%, which brings in just a tad more of the image.


I have not yet had a chance to look for macro-blocking, but I will try to check it out tonight.


The 2910 will not let me jump thru TITLE tracks on my homemade DVD-r discs, rather I have to go to the top menu and select the tracks if I want to advance or go back. The tracks will play thru ok, there is just no quick navigation with the remote.


I briefly played around with Color Temps, to dial in the Hi/Low cut offs, as well as adjust color temp to the eye. I have gotten to (2) settings where 0 IRE just disappears, and 99/100 IRE are just about to crush. The settings are very close to 6500 & 7800. I'll post those RGB brightness/contrast settings as soon as I feel they are close enough.


I did not notice a green shift, but then again I was not looking and I basically started from scratch once I was tweaking the RGB color temp settings.


I am thinking, the FLI-2310 is probably better than the FLI-23xx in my HT1000, and so I am thinking it might be best to run the 2910 at 720P, so the 2910 does all of the pixel management, rather than having the HT1000 deinterlace a 1080i image. However, if I find any MB issues at 720p, I'll see if they get resolved at 1080i.


So far, the image is a big improvement over the rp-91 in terms of resolution/clarity. As I said earlier, the HT1000 has a ZOOM feature, and an image zoomed to the max at 720p/1080i clearly has more bits of info to smooth jagged edges, over 480i/480p.


Feel free to hit me with questions I have not mentioned and I will see what I can do to get some feedback.


So far, I am digging the 2910. Because I bought it from tweeters locally, I have a little bit of time if I decide to take it back. But I figure I will give a good test drive period and maybe even a head to head with the Panny S97 if that hits the stores in my area any time soon.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytehoven
I am not seeing any difference between 720P and 1080i. I have looked at complex images, zooming into the image as much as possible, and they appear identical.


So far, the image is a big improvement over the rp-91 in terms of resolution/clarity.
I have the 3910/HT1000 combo.


My observations are pretty much the same as yours when it comes to the 720p/1080i differences (or lack there of).


I also had a RP91 (SDI modded) run thru a HTPC Holo II scaler and the 3910 puts out an equally outstanding picture which came as a bit of a surprise.


Whats really won me over with the 3910 is the audio portion. Nothing short of outstanding. SACD's are not over rated as I used to believe...or convinced myself.



Bill
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Biggles
I have the 3910/HT1000 combo.


My observations are pretty much the same as yours when it comes to the 720p/1080i differences (or lack there of).


I also had a RP91 (SDI modded) run thru a HTPC Holo II scaler and the 3910 puts out an equally outstanding picture which came as a bit of a surprise.


Whats really won me over with the 3910 is the audio portion. Nothing short of outstanding. SACD's are not over rated as I used to believe...or convinced myself.



Bill
Bill...


I would love to see some of your settings for the HT1000, for the 3910 image. It's my understanding, the 2910 is the same beast as the 3910 as far as the video section.


I assume the GAMMA adjustment capabilities of the 2910/3910 do not function under DVI? I only briefly tried to tweak the lower end of the scale, but did not see any affect.


I was just looking at 720p/1080i again, zooming on an image. 720p might just be a tad more rounded, if that is a fair term. I was looking at the tail section of a Star Destroyer as it headed to the Death Star in Star Wars.


While the 480p has jaggies, the 720p and 1080i are very smooth. However, it looks like the triangluar tail section tips at 720p might just be a touch smoother, as if there was just a very small amount of alaising in the 1080i image. I am talking a way small amount, probably not even worthy of a mention, but I did notice it in this one particular shot.


Again, I'd love to hear more about your settings.


RJ

...
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I just finished up some macroblock hunting, and I have yet to get any of the typical MB DVDs to produce MB.


I tried the opening of Monsters Inc, Dark City and the Day after Tomorrow. In the very beginning of Day After Tomorrow, as the titles transition from being on black to the tracking camera shot across the artic ice/water, they is a moment where I thought I was seing some MB. But it was probably the movement of the tracking shot fading in, which becomes evident right away.


If anyone has a favorite MB test scene, I'd be happy to give it a whirl and report.


I rewatched a bunch of scenes from Day After Tomorrow, and the 2910 is smokin' with the HT1000. Really sharp films are just awesome, like Blade II.


I have to try some older, less well mastered flicks like StarGate, to see how it translates.


Besides the pop in resolution/clarity, there is definitely somethine else happening with the overall Gamma. It's something I noticed in the Day After Tomorrow opening scenes. It felt like there was more dynamic range, the darks being darker and the whites being whiter, with a much more HD-esque spread in between.


I have no way of actually measuring, but it is a very similar experience to what I had when switching between DVI and Component while watching HBO-HD. The DVI connection offered the same "expanded" feeling.


To late to audition any more flicks, with a golf tournament tomorrow.


However, I'm pretty sure the 2910 is deserving of 2 thumbs up.
 

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Well your observations are promising. I am going to have to go back and play with the settings on my 2910 and 7205 and see what I come up with. To be fair I haven't had lot's of time to fine tune the combo and see what I come up with.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytehoven
Bill...


I would love to see some of your settings for the HT1000, for the 3910 image. ...
Hey RJ,


I'm still using the fLd filter with settings similar to those provided by Jmschnur posts and our off forum conversations. #'s are pretty much the same.


My HT bulb is on it's last leg so I've upped the RGB brightness levels.


I also just did the 3910 firmware upgrade and it is supposed to affect the DVI connection.



Bill
 

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I just got a new Denon 3910 DVD player on Tuesday night (2004/10/19) to use with my NEC HT1000 projector against a Draper Luma2 white screen.


I've been using the usual test DVDs (AVIA, DVE, etc), and using component with the brightness,contrast,colour,hue I've semi got the hang of.


But I want to use DVI and the HT1000 DVI controls are red,green,blue,cyan,magenta -- and I'm not sure what to do with those.

I'm open to suggestions/instructions.


Right now with 480p, enhanced, dvi, auto2 - the image is not right, both in colour and in grainyness. I've tried the set defaults (video, movie, sRGB, game) and movie isn't too bad. For User1 I've set all the colours to +-0, for which the image is not right, both in colour and in grainyness.



For the past year I've been using a computer as my DVD player, and set the HT1000 to the settings suggested here
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/videopr...43/index1.html

Quote:
All of the HT1000's operating and setup controls—even the White Balance and other color adjustments—are readily accessible in the user menus. This may be video Nirvana for the more technical user, but it can be intimidating to the beginner or technophobe. Unless you have sophisticated measurement and calibration tools, or you have the dealer or a calibration technician tweak your projector, you'll be best off using the factory defaults for Color Correction and the 6500K setting of the Color Temperature control. Of the other features, I had the best luck with the Overscan at "0%," the Gamma on Natural, the Video Filter and Noise Reduction Off, the Black Expansion set to Off or "3," and Contrast Enhancement at "0" or "–1." Use a setup DVD such as Video Essentials for adjusting the conventional video controls: Brightness, Contrast, Color, Tint, and Sharpness.
 

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Hey RJ,


Could you post your settings as I now have the same setup as you(except the 3910). I laugh every time I read your posts as it seems we are on the same page. Panamorph?, no panamorph, new DVD? old DVD is fine, well maybe I'll go back to Panamorph. When does it end?


Scott
 

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I've got something acceptable. I suspect that my grey level isn't quite right on 6500K, and there may be colour issues as well, but it's pretty good for first try winging it by eye without test equipment.


Let me tell you what I did.


Equipment:

a) Screen: Draper Luma2 matte white 1.0 gain 10'x8' pull down

b) DVD: Denon DVD-3910, with 2m (6') DVI-D 400 cable to projector

c) Projector: NEC HT1000 with 100 hours of lamp used.

d) DVDs: Digital Video Essentials, Wind, We Were Soldiers, Lost In Space, Henry V.


DVD-3910 Initial settings:

a) Select=DVI, Format=720p (controls on front of projector and on remote

top left)

b) Setup menu: HDMI/DVI Black Level=Enhanced (I tried 'Normal' but the black levels initially didn't look right. The image could probably be adjusted for Normal as well), TV-Aspect=Wide(16:9), TV-Type=MULTI, Video-Out=Progressive, ProgressiveMode=Auto1 (I tried 'Auto2' and it looked better for some things in Gladiator, but not as good in Wind), SqueezeMode=Off.


HT1000 Initial Settings:

a) DVI (on remote)

b) Basic Menu - Setup - Page 1 - LampMode=Normal

c) Picture Management = User1

d) Gamma Correction I used 'Natural' because of some experiments with the white t-shirt in chapter 2 of We Were Soldiers this showed the most wrinkles in the shirt.

e) Within PictureManagement SETTING button I deselected 'Color Temperature', which enables the White Balance button.


In goes the Digital Video Essentials disk. Menu - ProgramGuide - Reference Materials - 12 Display Setup Patterns - Play. This is showing the three black level bars on either side (blacker than black, +5%, +2%) and the contrast bars in the middle. With the HT1000 menu's White Balance button I set Brightness until I could just barely see the blacker than black. So I ended up with: Brightness R= -16, Brightness G = -16, Brightness B = -16.

I tried several contrast settings starting with 128 and then 215, but after going back and forth with various movie DVDs I settled on: Contrast R = 134, Contrast G = 134, Contrast B = 134.


Continuing with Digital Video Essentials, pushing PLAY four times, ends up on the new colour bar screen with the two big rows of six colours over a greyish background. The top bar is yellow, cyan, green, magenta, red, blue. On the HT1000's Color Correction button I used the DVE colour filters to adjust the colours: Red=0, Green=0, Blue=0, Yellow=0, Magenta= -7, Cyan= -1. I set the Color Gain to +20 for no particularly good reason.


Testing:

1) Henry V, chapter 2 is a dark film. I can see the paneling on the walls behind the priests. Other settings made that panneling clearer, but this was acceptable. In chapter 9 the moderator is wearing a black scarf over a black sweater under a charcol coat. If black levels are correct you should see the black sweater clearly different than the coat. I was able to also see the line that separates the scarf from the sweater in some spots.

2) Wind, chapter 19. This test is mostly about colour saturation. The red boat should be very red, and the blue pants should be very blue, and the yellow shirts should be very yellow. But you should also be able to see lots of clouds (contrast). It should not be grainy. Peoples faces should be good.

3) We Were Soldiers, chapter 2 baseball game, when the pilot is standing beside Too Tall talking to the colonel, I can clearly see the wrinkles in his shirt, and skin tones look ok. In chapter 9, the grass looks real, as do the faces and the weapons. Most importantly the fire in the explosions looks right. This is a very bright film, so if you have too much contrast it definately shows up here as an over white film.

4) Lost In Space, the opening chapter is 99% CGI with saturated vibrant colours. The colour space should be exciting. The fire should look like fire. If brightness is too high you'll see the optical cut outs around the ships. If contrast is too high you'll see sparkles.

5) Waterworld: first chapter with the catamaran chase. This is another bright film that's hard to get right. If the tan and skin and hair on the people doesn't look right, then it isn't right.


Let me know what settings you use please. I'll be watching !
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Here are some settings for the HT100 with a Hoya FL-Fay filter and the 2910.


DVI

Denon 2910 - 720p/1080i

Enhanced and 0 IRE


HT1000

Movie + Natural Gamma

Color Correction

R = -7 (AVIA recommends -15, my setting looks more natural)

G = 0

B = 3

Y = 0

M = 0

C = 0

CGain = 0

White Balance

BR = -13

BG = -19

BB = -14

CR = 160

CG = 140

CB = 160

________________________________________

Component

Denon 2910 - 480i - 0 IRE

Panny RP-91 - 480i - Darker - U Contrast (-1)


HT1000

Brightnerss = -2

Contrast = 35

Color = 37

Hue = 30

Sharpness = 0

Movie + Natural Gamma

ALL other picture goodies OFF

Color Correction

R = -6 (AVIA recommends -13, my setting looks more natural)

G = 0

B = 4

Y = 0

M = -3

C = 0

CGain = 0

White Balance

BR = 5

BG = 1

BB = 4

CR = 128

CG = 110

CB = 127

_____________________________________________________


The AVIA now shows spot of color decoding for all but RED, which is very close, but needs to run a little darker/higher to look natural.


Both the RP-91 and 2910 at 480i, reproduce the same range of signal so that no variation in color adjustment was needed. However, in order for the RP-91 to show the moving bars in the white area of the AVIA test patterns, either the Cinema Picture Mode or a "U" Contrast settings of (-1) or lower, has to be selected.


I have these HT1000 settings dialed in so a grayscale shows no colorization across the spectrum. Which means it is probably running a little blue and in the 7800K+ range, which I prefer to a strick "redish" 6500K.


Regarding the other picture goodies on the HT1000 at 480i...


SweetVision 1 & 2, Black Expansion 4 & Contrast Enhance -1 are nice alternate settings from OFF, especially for darker film material.


I would rate the 480i component video signal from the 2910 and RP-91 as equal to my eye. They both have near perfect video signals, especially regarding any Y/C delay. The 2910 via DVI 720p/1080i has noticibly better resolution/sharpness which is easily seen on a test pattern. But the 2910 has some Y/C delay issues which are apparent to my eye at 1080i. I'd say the delay is in the (-0.05) range and is not corrected by the latest Denon firmware update ESS-6720-4.


On balance, the 2910 provides a cleaner image at 720p.


My eyes are not good enough to notice any contrast boost in using the FL-Day filter, but I'll accept that it is there. And I said earlier, I appreciate the benefit of the reduced level of projector black, so watching in a totally dark environment is enhanced.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
***** SETTINGS UPDATE *****


If you wish to pass BTB, blacker than black signal, the Picture Mode SET munu needs to be set to 7.5 IRE. BTB is clipped with the 0 IRE setting.


Using the 7.5IRE requires the HT1000 brightness controls to be set a little darker, for the proper calibration of the BTB pluge.


On another note, the HDMI/DVI Black Level settings of NORMAL and ENHANCED both pass BTB pluge information.


I am now running the 2910 set to ENHANCED and 7.5 IRE.


***** That is All *****
 

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Am I reading you right when I think you are saying that the only way to adjust the overall brightness and contrast with DVI on the HT1K is by adjusting each individual colorsetting for brightness and contrast?


I have the same issues with my HT1K/3910 and up until now basically been thinking to forget dvi on the nec, never thought about the option to do all the colors individually.


/Michael
 

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Bytehoven...

Thanks for the numbers. I am going to try them with the Denon 1910. I bought the 1910 to replace my Bravo D1 to go with the HT1000 due to the problems with my D1. Picture quality from the Denon was very washed out, and i think the Denon lacks adjustable settings that your 2910 does.(I could be wrong, though) I haven't had time yet to run VE, so I went back to the D1 for the time being.


Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by LenVP
Bytehoven...

Thanks for the numbers. I am going to try them with the Denon 1910. I bought the 1910 to replace my Bravo D1 to go with the HT1000 due to the problems with my D1. Picture quality from the Denon was very washed out, and i think the Denon lacks adjustable settings that your 2910 does.(I could be wrong, though) I haven't had time yet to run VE, so I went back to the D1 for the time being.


Thanks
You might note, I have altered my setting posted above and I have also added an additional group of settings.


I now have HT settings for the 2910 set to ENHANCED and 0 IRE, as well as NORMAL and 7.5 IRE. The 2nd set of settings might work better for the 1910 if it does not have the black level and IRE setup adjustments of the 2910.


I have not been able to decide which range of settings provides the best overall image.


In theory, I am wondering if it is better to set the 2910 so that the HT1000 operates as close to factory defaults as possible? In general, I would npt want to BOOST an adjustment above factory defaults for proper calibration, but I'm not sure about going below.


I think I will post this topic and see what other folks have to say.
 

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Yes...I didn't see any options in the setup for adjusting black level or IRE. I did see your altered settings and hope to find time this weekend to switch it back to the 1910 and try them.


Thanks again...
 

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Len,

Did you turn off the black level ? Hit the mode button continuously until you see the black enhance is off (check the manual)

I got same felling when first hooked up to my HT1000 - picture was wash out.

Cheers

Thuan
 

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I just tried the settings posted by Bytehoven above.


Equipment:

b) DVD: Denon DVD-3910, with 2m (6') DVI-D 400 cable to projector

c) Projector: NEC HT1000 with 119 hours of lamp used.


ENHANCED

720P DVI 6500k approximate

MOVIE

Natural Gamma

R = 0

G = 0

B = 3

Y = 10

M = -15

C = -2

GAIN = 0

BR = 8

BG = -3

BB = 3

CR = 165

CG = 135

CB = 155



Testing (my old settings vs these new):

1) Henry V, chapter 3 is a dark film. The new settings are brigher and red-der. In chapter 9 the moderator I'm able to see the black scarf over a black sweater under a charcol coat on both old and new. The grass in the old looks green, whereas in the new it's very pale. In the new I can see wrinkles in the black sweater on his chest. The dark discussion scenes are easier to see because it's brighter.

2) Wind, chapter 19. The old settings are much prettier than the new ones. The old makes the movie much more exciting because everything is more beautiful.

3) We Were Soldiers, chapter 2 baseball game. Old green doesn't look real, but new green does. Old shows the wrinkles on his shirt better. Chapter 9 the grass and uniforms look like the wrong green in both old and new: the old has too much green and the new too little. The black weapons do not seem black enough, it's as if they have too much white in them. The new is a bit white everywhere for my taste, but everything is visible (unlike some projectors and settings I've seen) and not horribly whited out. Fire looks good in both, but the new has slightly better fire.

4) Lost In Space, the opening chapter: The new colours are not as exciting, and there's a glow around some of the ships (possibly the optical cut outs). The new fire doesn't look as good. This is a 2.35:1 film, and the letterbox black is brighter with the new, whereas with the old it's dark.

5) Waterworld: first chapter with the catamaran chase. Again the old greens and blues are more vibrant, whereas with the new it's reds and brighter. His tan doesn't look natural in the red, and overall the picture is less entertaining, but some of the water splashes seem clearer with the new and some of the metal seems clearer with the old.


Digital Video Essentials:

a) The first display setup pattern, with the blacker than black and 5% and 2% bars shows the blacker than black, and the whole 'black' screen is visible (not black)

b) On the dual 6 color bar: reds and blues are a little off (i.e. the corresponding filter doesn't show the same intensities), but greens are clearly wrong.
 
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