[midiboy]

Hi guys,


after a lot of testing I have found that I cannot right now get the HT300 Plus to work properly at either one of the NTSC film ( multiple of 23,976 or if you use reclock 24 frames/s ) refresh rates although it is very easy to set up using the DVI port and it will sync very well at those settings. Those are my problems, maybe you have similar problems or can help me with exact Powerstrip timings that will help.


At 72Hz or 120Hz, the HT300Plus will sync fine without any problems but then, during playback I see tearing all over the place. I ran the reclock tearing test but even without it I can see heavy tearing all the time.


This does not happen at 50 or 60Hz .... those timings really work very well with the HT300 Plus.


At 48Hz tearing is not an issue so I should be happy BUT .... unfortunately at this refresh rate I see horizontal wavy lines in darker areas of the picture. It looks like flickering which caused me headaches at first but after careful experimentation I found out that this flickering only occurs between 47,5 and 48,5 Hz refresh rate. Playing around with the other porch settings did not help at all.


One can see this flickering by using the 20IRE grey test pattern on the AVIA disc or by setting the Windows XP background color to a dark grey (on the scale from 0 to 240 it would be 38 in my case)


This flickering is VERY visible in Lord of the Rings for instance which has a lot of dark areas.


As of now I don´t know if this flickering is caused by the videocard or the HT300Plus, the tearing is definitely an issue with the HT300+ although maybe it could be influenced by using different Powerstrip settings ?


I have written Sim2 tech support, but maybe you can help also. As for the flickering issue ... I will try another video card soon just to make sure.


My system configuration:


Sapphire Atlantis 9000 Radeon card

Catalyst 3.2 drives

DVI out to HT300+

HT300+ Version 2.13


Thanks for your help !

midiboy

 

[ShePearl]

not a Sim2 owner, but this thread might help. Ask Alan or Christoph as well.

 

[midiboy]

Hi ShePearl !


I have written Christoph about it and updated the old thread again. Thanks for your help !


midiboy

 

[clehner]

Hi guys,


here is the story, as short as possible:


I am working as a consultant for SIM2 for a while now and they asked me to provide them with a Kino-PC (my sort of HTPC) to get to the grounds of the problem.


First: The HT300+ only works in a range between about 47 to 65 Hz, all other refresh rates are transformed by default to 60Hz.


Due to certain limitations by the TI-standard firmware/software there are problems around 48Hz. I am not entirely sure how much I am authorized to disclose so please forgive me if I am not getting into all the details.


Fact is: SIM2 has solved the problem and in case there is a customer who wants to do 48 Hz, I am sure something can be arranged with the dealer and SIM2 service.



Regards

Christoph

 

[midiboy]

Hi Christoph,


all in all thats great news though ! So is this a hardware fix or software update ? I will tell my dealer then I guess ....


Have you sent in your HT300+ ?

Thanks,

midiboy

 

[clehner]

Quote:

Originally posted by midiboy all in all thats great news though !

Yes, indeed, it shows quite clearly that SIM2 cares about ALL their customers, even about those with very special requirements


Quote:

Originally posted by midiboy So is this a hardware fix or software update ?

It is both. The Service station in Germany as well of course as SIM2 headquarters are very aware of the problem by now.


Regards

Christoph

 

[midiboy]

Hi !


Just a follow up and a workaround for those who are interested. Sim2 exchanged the driver board for me but unfortunately this did not help on my machine. Lets see what Sim2 will come up with next to solve this. I really hope they will. Pleeeeeaaaaase ?


In the meantime I have found a workaround for those of you using reclock. Here it is:


I have started conversation with Ogo, creator of Reclock to maybe find a workaround until Sim2 can really solve the problem. My idea was this ...


Since this problem only occurs between approx. 47,7 and 48,35 Hz and since reclock works by synchronising and speeding up a 23.976 frames/s movie to a multiple of 24 my idea was that reclock could maybe also work at a not so exact multiple of 24, namely 48,350 or 48,50 Hz. This would speed up audio/video a little bit more but since we are in PAL country where everything is running at 25f/s that should not be a big problem.


To make matters short, it works perfectly. What you have to do is this:


Set up a refresh rat of 48,350Hz in Powerstrip or any other above 48Hz that will not show that noise in the picture anymore. On my system that is 48,350Hz. Then start a 23.976 frames/s movie using reclock. You will see that the icon will turn green. reclock reports the refresh rate as 48Hz. Ogo said that up to 0,5 Hz more or less is integrated into the correction applied to the clock.


Ogo states that during the first movie played the correction to the system clock showing in the reclock properties page will still be very high. In our case this will be even higher because the correction to adapt to 48,350Hz has to be accounted for. It will also take much longer for Reclock to finally find the correct correction so the ppm figure in this dialog will remain very high at first.


On my system it took me more than 2 hours of watching a movie until the ppm parameter reached low values again and the stuttering disappeared.


To see whats going on, there is a trick: Turn on VSync monitor, then while the movie is running turn on "Show Vsync on screen" and "enable Vsync correction".


This will show you a few dots and a horizontal bar on the left side of the picture. At first those dots will wander all over the picture disappearing on one side and reappearing on the other. Ogo explained that this means that the right correction has not been found yet. After 2 hours of playing my first movies at a refresh rate of 48,350Hz those dots and the bar pretty much stayed in one place.


This is a sign that reclock has found the right correction and that it is working right. From now on this is stored in the registry and the next movie will start with perfect correction from the start.


This trick, to display Vsync on screen is really handy. You can see if reclock is working right or not. Also the tearing test and the Vsync position in the control panel should be mentioned but this is all explained in Ogo´s readme file that comes with reclock. It really helps to understand how reclock is working.


So until Sim2 and other manufacturerers have found a way to really solve the noise problem @48Hz on all their machines we have a perfect workaround to playback NTSC movies. Great, huh ? I will send Ogo some money, he really deserves it !


Hope this helps,

best wishes,

Alex

 

[midiboy]

Just a short follow up message.


Ogo just sent me a new version of reclock to try out that can now find the correct clock correction value MUCH quicker than the last version. Doesn´t take 2 hours anymore just a few minutes even with 48,350Hz.


I guess this version will be released soon.


Best wishes,

midiboy

 

[clehner]

Hi midiboy,


very exciting, thanks for your efforts.


Guess what: I suggested the solution you found to ogo myself a couple of months ago but dropped the issues as I have a version of the HT300 that works perfectly at 48Hz now.


Ogo is a genius, you all should send him some donation for his marvelous work.


I will try to talk to SIM2 tomorrow and find out what will happen with the versions of the HT300+ that still have problems. I am pretty sure they will tackle the problem, they always have in the past (in contrast to some other companies I don't want to mention now ).


Regards

Christoph

 

[midiboy]

Quote:

I will try to talk to SIM2 tomorrow and find out what will happen with the versions of the HT300+ that still have problems.

Please do so. You are free to use my name as an example of someone who needs help !!


After talking to Ogo some more, it turned out that my workaround solution is just a temporary one because I use Reclock with AC3out over SPDIF. In this setting, reclock will simply drop audio samples to keep up with the accelerated video since speeding up AC3 audio is not possible or very hard to do. I would need to decode AC3 inside the computer to not loose any audio samples and speed up audio as well but unfortunately this is not possible in my configuration right now so the better longterm solution would be for Sim2 to fix the problem around 48Hz.


By the way ... during my talk with Ogo it turned out that a refresh rate of 47,952 is still the best choice for NTSC film even with reclock. It will show 48Hz but will use the exact refresh rate internally.


By using an exact double of the NTSC frame rate and not 48Hz, the need to drop samples in an AC3 pass through situation would be reduced even more compared to an exact 48Hz setting.


Best wishes,

midiboy

 

[Alan Gouger]

I tried 48hz and it takes a few seconds for the projector to lock onto it. Once it stabilizes I get this weired banding that appears and sometimes posteurization around bright objects in dark scenes.

I assume I need this upgrade.

 

[midiboy]

Hi !


Just wanted to keep this thread up maybe for Sim2 to respond.


I have also recently found out that the greyscale is seriously altered around 48Hz compared to 50 or 60 Hz meaning that if you tune the colors to show a perfect greyscale at 50/60Hz, those same settings will show a non linear greycale at 48 or 48,5 Hz. Maybe those problems are related somehow.


Any response from Sim2 on this maybe ?

Thanks,

midiboy

 

[Alan Gouger]

My 300+ cannot do 48HZ

Seleco does have an upgrade. It requires you send in your machine. Its hardware based, they replace the driver board.

Ill be sending mine in next week.


Thanks to those responsible for getting Sim2 to give us this feature.

 

[midiboy]

Hey guys !





I am soooo happy again! Just got my HT300+ back again from my Austrian Sim2 service center.


Finally, the 48Hz problem is gone now. It works perfectly now at 47,952Hz and even the greyscale problem I had at 48,5Hz before is gone now.


So I can definitely say that the Sim2 HT300+ is working at 48Hz now. In case it doesn´t, one is supposed to contact Sim2 service center, they will know how to solve the problem.


Thanks A LOT (!!!!!!!!!!!) to Christoph Lehner who managed to locate the problem and who set me on the right track. Also thanks A LOT (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) to Alberto @ Sim2, to Sim2 in general and to the Austrian support team for agreeing to exchange the necessary parts and for this great service !


Gonna watch a few NTSC DVD´s now.

Take care,

midiboy

 

[clehner]

Midiboy,


you are very welcome


Now: Have fun with your perfect HT300+


The next step has to be a 3-chip I think


Cheers

Christoph


BTW: Please check your PMs in case you haven't done so yet.

 

[midiboy]

Quote:

The next step has to be a 3-chip I think

Mhh, not if it is 3 times as expensive as a 1 chipper.

What I am wondering though is, why the supposed contrast ratio of the HT300 link is so much higher than on the HT300+ although they seem to use the same HD 2 chip. At least thats what I read on another thread in this forum. If this is only due to improved software, then maybe us HT300+ users could also enjoy this "update" ?


Sim2 has such a great service, it should definitely offer upgrades to make it easier for us to keep up with technology. Not everyone is able to shell out that much cash for a new machine every few months. High end audio manufactorers have long had this tradition of letting the user enjoy upgrades at reduced prices. I think Sim2 should offer this too. This would definitely set them apart from any other projector manufacturer to date (as far as I know) and would certainly result in a broader userbase me thinks.


midiboy