[panfist]

I have no clue how the high cost of this stuff is justified.


If someone had told me in college that you could pawn off $30 worth of electronics parts as a sophisticated $300 controller, I would have done things a little differently. I took a fair amount of electrical engineering credits, and mostly designed guitar effects and amplifiers for my projects; however, I should have been designing home automation, and I'd be a friggin millionaire! Unfortunately, now I have bills and a day job, and I don't have the time to tinker with circuit design.


How the hell can anyone justify $300 for a thermostat , when for less than the cost of the thermostat I can buy a netbook and USB thermometer and relay, stick it to my wall and have a cheaper thermostat that also plays porn, minesweeper and beethoven.

 

[bigpapa]

Yep, everyone who buys one of those is getting raped, or they have more money than bwainz!

 

[panfist]



Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpapa /forum/post/16880570


Yep, everyone who buys one of those is getting raped, or they have more money than bwainz!

Well, are there any reasonably priced alternatives? I understand that there is a fair bit of design work that goes into making a nice product, and the market isn't very large so they have don't have a lot of customers over which to spread that initial design cost. On the other hand, I refuse to shell out such an obscene amount of money, because it's only me and ten other rich guys that are interested in the market.

 

[Neurorad]

You sound like my wife. Of course it's not justified, it's an electronic toy. It's fun to play with.


I agree, it's not cheap. But there are a handful of people willing, so the cost is justified. If they didn't sell a single one, then the price would drop.

 

[panfist]

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_elasticity_of_demand


The cost isn't really "justified" in the sense that the product deserves to command such a high price (in my opinion), but it is "justified" in the sense that it allows vendors to maximize profits and minimize work. Hypothetical: you drop your profit margin by 50% and that results in doubling your revenue. Why would you do that if you can make the same amount of profit doing half the work? Not to mention that the demand for home automation probably isn't great at any price.


I think, however, that the market is so small that it's hard to get an accurate reading on the elasticity. Additionally, this being a relatively new market, consumers really need to learn about the product before they can really get a demand for it, and that won't happen unless there is a large marketing drive.


I'm interested in home automation primarily to get the most out of energy usage, and second for a little convenience. If I decide to go to happy hour after work instead of go home, it'd be nice to remotely adjust my thermostat. For me, it's not a toy. I have a million other toys higher on my wish list (that I also can't afford, yet

).

 

[AceCannon]



Quote:
Originally Posted by panfist /forum/post/16880417


How the hell can anyone justify $300 for a thermostat , when for less than the cost of the thermostat I can buy a netbook and USB thermometer and relay, stick it to my wall and have a cheaper thermostat that also plays porn, minesweeper and beethoven.

It also pays to be patient and thorough: I picked up FOUR new Aprilaire 8870's, their distribution module, and a protocol converter all for just over $300.


Ebay.

 

[panfist]



Quote:
Originally Posted by AceCannon /forum/post/16882390


It also pays to be patient and thorough: I picked up FOUR new Aprilaire 8870's, their distribution module, and a protocol converter all for just over $300.


Ebay.

No offense to anyone who makes a living peddling this stuff, but I'm sort of so disgusted by the whole market that I don't think I could stomach the process of actually researching all the different brands, products, etc; not to mention that it seems like 90% of this stuff is meant to be installed by partners and not users.


I think what could really turn me on is a truly DIY home automation scene, where people would share schematics for devices that you could buy and install for tens of dollars instead of hundreds or thousands of dollars.


Maybe I'm being arrogant but I think that with 40 hours of time in a community college electronics/digital circuits lab, I could design and prototype ethernet thermostat and lighting controls, then probably order all the parts (related to the actual automation circuits) for under $100.


In college, for a "hydroponic" project (wink, wink) my roommate and I designed a homeostatic device that would control the pH and dissolved solute PPM of our plant food solution to within 1% of optimal values. Control of lighting and HVAC would be a walk in the park in comparison.


edit: I think I'm starting to sound like a troll so I should probably just quit bothering you guys and come back when I'm not broke. I very much appreciate the discussion.

 

[WayneDB123]



Quote:
Originally Posted by panfist /forum/post/16882487


I think what could really turn me on is a truly DIY home automation scene, where people would share schematics for devices that you could buy and install for tens of dollars instead of hundreds or thousands of dollars.

Maybe this site might interest you.
http://openremote.org/display/HOME/OpenRemote

 

[QQQ]

I'm rather angry that I can't afford a Gulfstream G650. There's no way there's more than a few hundred thousand in parts in those things. Those damn price gougers!

 

[Syphon Filter]



Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ /forum/post/16883512


I'm rather angry that I can't afford a Gulfstream G650. There's no way there's more than a few hundred thousand in parts in those things. Those damn price gougers!

This is the only comment I can take seriously in this thread...

 

[David Richardson]

Everyone has a different view of what is expensive. Please respect others and QQQ counting pennies saving for that Gulfstream.

 

[IVB]

If you really think you could build a controller for $30 in parts, well, go ahead and create a company and build it. Assuming you put in a 50% profit margin and sell this for $45, you'll crush the $300 competition.


You do realize there's 1 wire $5 heat sensors, right? Look up Qkits QK011 temperature sensors, here's a post about it. So now all you have to do is figure out how to solder that to a device that can control your furnace, and you're done.


Let me know when you have that $45 thermostat that is also IP controllable, i'm sure we can drum up business for you.

 

[amirm]



Quote:
Originally Posted by panfist /forum/post/16882487


Maybe I'm being arrogant but I think that with 40 hours of time in a community college electronics/digital circuits lab, I could design and prototype ethernet thermostat and lighting controls, then probably order all the parts (related to the actual automation circuits) for under $100.

Let's do the math. Seeing how this is low volume business, the typical manufacturer margin would be about 50% for you to make a decent living. That gets you to $200. Then you have to provide margin to retailer. There, let's use the common 33% and you are up to $270 MSRP.

PCs are commonly sold at 5% margin (or less) due to very high volume so you can't compare the two.

Quote:
edit: I think I'm starting to sound like a troll so I should probably just quit bothering you guys and come back when I'm not broke. I very much appreciate the discussion.

Well, your larger point is kind of correct. If we can find more ways to take advantage of PC technology and its scale, we can save a lot of money.


This technology does need to come down in pricing to make it more accessible to people. As it is, even a small system costs thousands of dollars when it is said and done.

 

[39CentStamp]



Quote:
Originally Posted by panfist /forum/post/16880417


I have no clue how the high cost of this stuff is justified.


If someone had told me in college that you could pawn off $30 worth of electronics parts as a sophisticated $300 controller, I would have done things a little differently. I took a fair amount of electrical engineering credits, and mostly designed guitar effects and amplifiers for my projects; however, I should have been designing home automation, and I'd be a friggin millionaire! Unfortunately, now I have bills and a day job, and I don't have the time to tinker with circuit design.


How the hell can anyone justify $300 for a thermostat , when for less than the cost of the thermostat I can buy a netbook and USB thermometer and relay, stick it to my wall and have a cheaper thermostat that also plays porn, minesweeper and beethoven.

I had the same problem in Amsterdam. I couldn't believe how much they wanted for the attractive prostitutes when the ugly ones would have been just as good.

 

[panfist]



Quote:
Originally Posted by 39CentStamp /forum/post/16884958


I had the same problem in Amsterdam. I couldn't believe how much they wanted for the attractive prostitutes when the ugly ones would have been just as good.

Sorry, I have to respond to this one post because since I've said I started to sound like a troll, it's like it gave everyone free license to bash me. So, here goes:


Yeah, because taking a netbook screen off a hinge, and hiding the body and four wires behind a wall next to it is that difficult. Which one's the ugly prostitute?

or

http://imgur.com/PkXaFl.png%5B/IMG%5D

The eee maybe missing buttons, but that's a minor inconvenience when compared to the fact that there's a pretty highres screen, wireless adapter, ethernet, USB hub, hard drive and fully programmable x86 processor in there. And you could find a 7" eee for under $200 or even under $150.


I know that I would love that rock solid, heart touching panel (lol) in my wall. All kidding aside, how can you possibly deny that this wouldn't make a superior thermostat? Is there anything that's designed to be a home automation product that could be competitive on price? The only disadvantage that I can see with the eee PC is increased power consumption...but it doesn't really consume that much, you can get it to do other things as well and/or it can sleep for intervals.


If home automation is supposed to be a "toy," then the only fun I could possibly derive from it is in building something ten times better for the same price, or just as good for 1/10th the price. The ten times better for the same price is looking like the easier option and something that I could possibly implement within a year. Like I said, I'll come back when I'm not broke.

 

[QQQ]

You are quite right that there's a hell of a lot more that goes into a netbook than that thermostat. And if you knew much about economics or business you'd know that's about as relevant as a hill of beans. How much do you make an hour and how the hell can you justify it when there are people working in Africa for $20 a week. Your pay is outrageous!


You might want to look up the term "economies of scale". It's part of the answer. Then go into business and decide to make a product that there is limited demand for, pay rent and insurance and salaries, and learn that even if you have that product manufactured in low quantities there's a $25,000 fee for the molding costs on the product, and then let's see you sell it for $50 and stay in business.


The odds are that the guy who owns that company is more likely to be taking in a 5 figure salary than he is to be making the "millions" you mentioned in your first post.

 

[39CentStamp]



Quote:
Originally Posted by panfist /forum/post/16885159


Sorry, I have to respond to this one post because since I've said I started to sound like a troll, it's like it gave everyone free license to bash me. So, here goes:


Yeah, because taking a netbook screen off a hinge, and hiding the body and four wires behind a wall next to it is that difficult. Which one's the ugly prostitute?

or

http://imgur.com/PkXaFl.png%5B/IMG%5D

The eee maybe missing buttons, but that's a minor inconvenience when compared to the fact that there's a pretty highres screen, wireless adapter, ethernet, USB hub, hard drive and fully programmable x86 processor in there. And you could find a 7" eee for under $200 or even under $150.


I know that I would love that rock solid, heart touching panel (lol) in my wall. All kidding aside, how can you possibly deny that this wouldn't make a superior thermostat? Is there anything that's designed to be a home automation product that could be competitive on price? The only disadvantage that I can see with the eee PC is increased power consumption...but it doesn't really consume that much, you can get it to do other things as well and/or it can sleep for intervals.


If home automation is supposed to be a "toy," then the only fun I could possibly derive from it is in building something ten times better for the same price, or just as good for 1/10th the price. The ten times better for the same price is looking like the easier option and something that I could possibly implement within a year. Like I said, I'll come back when I'm not broke.

You cant control the HVAC equpiment with an eee PC. So the thermostat wins hands down if your asking which one makes a better um.. thermostat.


You realize that there are people out there laughing at you right now for wanting to spend $200 for automation right? "get off your lazy @ss and push a button". Just like there are guys who are willing to spend $200 but think $2000 is 'insane' and those guys think $20000 is 'crazy' and so on and so forth.


I have heard this haterism BS nonsense forever. Billionaire clients who spend $50k in drapes think a $5000 TV is ludicrous. So when you pop into the automation board telling people they are fools your asking to be flamed. Plus im out of town and bored so..

 

[IVB]



Quote:
Originally Posted by 39CentStamp /forum/post/16885337


I have heard this haterism BS nonsense forever. Billionaire clients who spend $50k in drapes think a $5000 TV is ludicrous. So when you pop into the automation board telling people they are fools your asking to be flamed. Plus im out of town and bored so..

God, you know what's really a stupid waste of $$? Clothing/etc. $600 or more on a purse, or $150 shoes. Sneakers over $75, jeans over $40.


The parts on all of those is perhaps $15, why would you ever spend more


Don't even get me started on food. A bottle of wine that costs >$12, or $3 each for fancy chocolate truffles.


No 6 pack of beer should be more than $8. It's just some damn hops & sugar that's sat for a while! WTF!


Get your grimy hands off my Tangueray, though. That is worth it.

 

[Syphon Filter]

I think the OP would fall off his chair if he knew the scale of jobs some custom installers do.


I've personally worked on residences where the AV & Integration services were well over the £400,000 mark (approx. $650,000).


Then there are the guys who are doing super-yachts which dwarf just about all residential jobs I've seen, except maybe some palaces in the Middle-East. We're talking 90+ zone systems with full AV, HVAC, lighting and shed loads of other stuff (windows, blinds, monitoring systems etc) all integrated.


It's all well and good talking about replacing automation controllers with PCs and the theory is sound but I am pretty sure there would be more realiability issues with them than you see with fully embedded control systems.


The automation hardware that custom installers use (I'm thinking about the Crestron, AMX and possibly even HAI style products) are very specifically built for the tasks they do. There's a lot of support provided by the companies too, Crestron (and AMX) have libraries of modules and IR drivers and code modules that support a MASSIVE amount of 3rd party equipment, be it a projector, plasma, dvd player, HVAC interface etc. We're talking thousands upon thousands of products here not just a few hundred.


All this support and not to mention development of new, better products costs money. It's not just the hardware they develop either, what about all the software and programming tools? Crestron and AMX have a whole bunch of software tools to cater for a wide number of tasks such as GUI design, drag and drop programming, procedural programming, programming wizards (not a fan of these) and diagnostics software.


Then on top of that you have the training and business development costs associated with setting up authorised dealers...what about training programmers so that the kit can actually be made to do something without falling over on it's arse every 5 minutes?


I think the OP and others need to take a step back and think about why the costs are so high rather than just looking at the $ price of a product.


Then add the dealer margins.


Then add consultancy and programming rates.


Also, the market is not as small as you might imagine, there are plenty of wealthy people out there who will happily pay for the services offered by CIs.

 

[QQQ]



Quote:
Originally Posted by IVB /forum/post/16885391


God, you know what's really a stupid waste of $$? Clothing/etc. $600 or more on a purse, or $150 shoes. Sneakers over $75, jeans over $40.


The parts on all of those is perhaps $15, why would you ever spend more


Don't even get me started on food. A bottle of wine that costs >$12, or $3 each for fancy chocolate truffles.


No 6 pack of beer should be more than $8. It's just some damn hops & sugar that's sat for a while! WTF!


Get your grimy hands off my Tangueray, though. That is worth it.

One of my favorite humorous recollections is a very nice lady I did quite large system for many years ago. She spent about 500K, and if I recall correctly the house had about 40 pairs of speakers (among other things). Somehow she discovered I was doing a much larger job for someone else and would occasionally quiz me about about it and I sensed a little jealousy. One day she asked me how large the other house was. I told her the square footage which was about twice the size of hers and she said "that's ridiculous, no one needs that much space". Her spending 500K on A/V and automation was "reasonable" but someone else spending more and having a bigger house was "just ridiculous". I always thought that was funny as hell.