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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
...and it was being emmitted by a CRT FP.


I must admit I was skeptical when Luca posted recently that CRT FP was so qualitatively better than digital projection. However, after helping a fellow forum member converge his new CRT FP last night I was forced to accept the fact that in a light controlled room CRT FP just plain ROCKS! In fact it Rocks so much that I am now offering my DLP and Panamorph in the classifieds section.


I have heard all the arguments about why digital projectors are more convienient and the wave of the future, but pure blacks and deeply saturated colors with no visible pixel structure (from five feet away) just can not be argued with. One thing I did notice was the CRT FPs are not very bright, but in a light-controlled room this just seemed a non-issue for me. So now I have to swallow my pride and go over to the *other* projector forum, where I always thought people were just a little too smug about their projector superiority, but I will always remember the helpful and fun people here in the Digital Projector Forum (sniff sniff) http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
 

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As always, what model CRT and screen width and gain did you see. So much depends on parameters here.


------------------

Jeff

Currently - Zenith 7" CRT, 80x60 1.3 gain screen


Soon to be - 107x60 1.3 gain...with whatever higher rez DLP gets its act together (finally)with Panamorph or B stock/etc 9" CRT
 

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Some of us need to be on the bleading edge of technology even if it looks worse, sounds worse, smells worse and costs more. Some day it will look better, sound better, smell better and cost less.



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--Bob
 

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Hi Brian,


Sorry about the 3-chip DLP and 3-panel D-ILA 'snobbish' comment. It wasn't meant to be so. I just wasn't aware of the existence of any 3-LCD projectors (that are not LCOS based).


By itself, LCD isn't a 'three separate primaries' technology, although it can have very good colors in its own right.


Unless the projector has three separate chips, a polarized beam splitter, dichroic lenses and other advanced optics, it probably can't have three separate primaries. I don't know of an LCD projector that uses these techniques.


Of course, single-chip DLP doesn't qualify, either, instead opting for a much cheaper (much, much cheaper) spinning color wheel.


Just my $0.02. Just so you know where I sit on this one...If I could get a 9" CRT in my home and installed and converged for the price of a digital projector, I would.
 

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Bob, does this mean you're holding out for smellovision? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


I've seen the same setup as Jim and Luca have and I have to agree. The only thing digital I though could keep up wit it was that (I think) M5000 demo that JVC did at CES. Neither are affordable for most of us. It's true the picture from the G90 setup far exceeds anything you'll see in the typical or even better movie theater.


Having seen the G90/Faroudja combo I still wouldnt' trade in my Boxlight38T/Grayhawk combo. Why? First, I don't care about HDTV. Obnoxious ads one right after another are just as obnoxious in super high res, widescreen perfect color. Broadcast TV stinks no matter what the resolution or screen aspect ratio.


For watching DVDs, I get the full measure of satisfaction and movie-like feeling from my Boxlight as I would from the G90. But without the constraints of light level and the Mercedes-Benz level costs.


These are not your father's LCDs. Coupled with the Grayhawk and the Quadscan, the picture is extremely movie-like and the system is easy to buy and live with. The projector sits on a little pedestal in the back of the room and has one (fat) cable running to it. I don't have to tweak it very often--I just turn it on and enjoy the show.


So Jim, before you abandon digital entirely, check out the new stuff, both DLP and LCD. The advancement of technology in just the last 6 months is mind-boggling.


Just my $0.02 http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


Dan

 

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Quote:
The bang for the buck in the used and B-stock CRT market is nothing short of phenomenal
You've got that right, Jim. I have a perfectly good CRT projector to sell and I can't even get $650 for it (less than half the cost of a big screen TV). No one wants to believe how much bang for the buck there is in AmPro (until they see it).


Bob


------------------

~ The Sultan of Cheap ~




[This message has been edited by RobertWood (edited 08-21-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by propeller_beach:


BTW, I never said that CRT front projection is "so much quantitatively better than digital."
I said QUALITATIVELY not quantitatively. A small difference, but I think at least roughly consistent with the spirit of your earlier post about the Sony G90. Besides if you misquote my misquote of you we are REALLY going to be in trouble http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


The point I maybe did not make sufficiently clear in my first post in this thread is that I was simply blown away that a projector with approximately 7,000 hours left on the tubes could cost only $1,500 and look so absolutely incredible.


I realized that the best looking projector I had ever seen was almost the least expensive. Again, the bang for the buck is absolutely incredible. Think about it, a 1,000 hour DILA lamp costs about $1,000, but this entire PROJECTOR with roughly 7,000 hours left on the tubes only cost $1,5000. Even assuming that the DILA looked as good as this CRT projetor I saw, it's BULB cost almost as much as the whole projector and only lasts 1/7 the time. That realization made me see that CRT projectors have the strange property of being for both the money-is-no-object-crowd and the best-bang-for-the-buck-crowd. So maybe a DILA or 3-chip DLP looks as good or a little better than that $1500 projector, but that projector absolutely obliterated the performance of any digital projector you could get for a comporable price.

 

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Quote:
Originally posted by milori:

Hi Brian,


Sorry about the 3-chip DLP and 3-panel D-ILA 'snobbish' comment. It wasn't meant to be so. I just wasn't aware of the existence of any 3-LCD projectors (that are not LCOS based).


By itself, LCD isn't a 'three separate primaries' technology, although it can have very good colors in its own right.


Unless the projector has three separate chips, a polarized beam splitter, dichroic lenses and other advanced optics, it probably can't have three separate primaries. I don't know of an LCD projector that uses these techniques.


B]

Perhaps I am missing something and you can correct my misunderstanding. I have a 10ht which I have opened up for cleaning dust. Inside I see what I thought were 3 separate lcd panels that surround a prism block. Isn't this a 3 panel configuration or am I making a bad assumption about what I am seeing?


BTW I hope you caught the http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif by the snob comment, it was meant toung in cheek, I truly thought that there a 3 separate lcd panles in the 10ht. Please correct me if I am wrong and if I am incorrect perhaps you could elaborate on how it works.


BTW here are the specs that I had based my assumptions upon:

Specifications

Projection System: 3 LCD Panels, 1 lens


LCD Panels: 1.35 inch polysilicone TFT LCD panels, 1366 x 768 pixels per panel (1,049,088 pixels x 3 panels for a total of 3,147,364 pixels)


Best regards,


Brian



[This message has been edited by btmoore (edited 08-21-2001).]
 

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Yes, every LCD pj that I know of is 3-chip with optics to separate the R, G, and B. Presumably this is why LCD's output a lot more lumens from the same bulb than 1-chip DLP.


------------------

Noah
 

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Comparisons at the high end (DILA/G90) are interesting but probably academic to the vast majority of us. A more mainstream comparison would be a Davis DL450 and a Barco 808s. It just so happens that this is exactly the comparison I'm trying to make now.


I’ve owned the DL450 for two years and I've been happy with it but curiosity finally got the best of me and I decided to try a CRT projector.


After two weeks of constant, after hours tweaking, there's no clear advantage either way. The 808s has somewhat better colors but it's also a much softer image.


Maybe I still have allot to learn about properly setting up a CRT projector but I've already put more time into setting it up then I’ve put into the DL450 in the two years that I've owned it.


If you want to talk about price; Used DL450s are going for under $1500 and I paid $2600 for the 808s. I'm fairly certain that there's nothing broken in the 808s as I bought it from Mr. Palmer himself.


My advice to DL450 owners who are thinking about the switch: Don’t do it. You probably don't have money to burn or you wouldn't be playing with the DL450 in the first place. So, unless you like staring at test patterns and constantly tweaking your HT, you’re probably better off springing for a panamorph.
 

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If we are talking apples to apples then lets throw in the cost factor. After I sold my LT150 because of the rainbows I quickly figured out my options. The absolute maximum I wanted to spend was $2500. Right then and there D-ila was out of the question especially with bulb cost. 3-chip DLP would be nice but about the best bargain I have seen is from AVS for $3500 and it's svga. Any XGA LCD projector with respectable CR is also going to be considerably more than $2500. I think if PQ is your main concern and you have the right space a 2nd hand/B-stock CRT is impossible to beat.


Of course to each his own and if the variable of cost was thrown out I would probably be sitting here with a panamorphed D-ILA, both for brightness and ease of use. But to play devils advocate to my own comment if cost was thrown out the window so is the convenience factor so I would probably have a G-90 http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


**as an edit, I made these comments before reading the entire thread**

Quote:
Originally posted by milori:
Jim,


I didn't see your DLP in the classifieds, so can't speak to what it is.


Just for argument's sake, if it's a single-chip DLP with a spinning color wheel, you're not seeing the best that digital has to offer, either.


IMO, you really need three separate primaries creating your color for best results. This only includes 3-chip DLP and D-ILA in the digital camp. All CRTs have this advantage natively.


Anyway, for apples-to-apples, make sure that the digital projector has separate (simultaneous) RGB primaries just like the CRT.
------------------

<A HREF="mailto http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif [email protected]">David R. Smith</A>


System info: NEC 9PG in progress, Dalite 60X80 Matte (I know), ATI Radeon 64mb VIVO, ATI 7.1 player w/DC's O IRE patch , WinME.


[This message has been edited by DRS (edited 08-21-2001).]
 

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Luis,


"After two weeks of constant, after hours tweaking, there's no clear advantage either way. The 808s has somewhat better

colors but it's also a much softer image."


Really? The blacks weren't a lot better on the CRT?


Also, I don't know what you're background is, but unless you have specific skill in setting up a CRT, there's no reason to think you've seen anywhere near its capabilities.


Any time I think about getting a CRT, I add $500 to the cost to get it professionally set up.


------------------

Noah
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Jim Tittle:
Mark I agree with you completely (my projector is a 1-chip DLP by the way).


So before this thread gets out of hand: I AM IN NO WAY TRYING TO ARGUE THAT crt PROJECTORS ARE BETTER THAN DIGITAL PROJECTORS.


I was simply describing my own "religious" conversion.

But I think most users with experience with both (I am a 3time former CRT owner) will pretty much agree that CRT has all of the best viewing characteristics except brightness. It's just that few are willing any longer to put up with CRT's size, weight, seasonal need for readjustment and tweaking in our homes...


Robert



------------------

Robert Clark

See our home theater (with very poor quality pics!)
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Album...874&a=12744078
 

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Quote:
But I think most users with experience with both (I am a 3time former CRT owner) will pretty much agree that CRT has all of the best viewing characteristics except brightness. It's just that few are willing any longer to put up with CRT's size, weight, seasonal need for readjustment and tweaking in our homes...
You know, there have been dozens of posts trying to compare CRT with digital. Every trivial thing has been said about this in the last few weeks. But IMO Robert Clark's two sentences above are about all that's really required to explain the difference.


Bob


------------------

~ The Sultan of Cheap ~


[This message has been edited by RobertWood (edited 08-21-2001).]
 

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It is interesting, it seems that those that start off with digital PJs find their way to CRT (and perhaps back again) and those that start off with CRT either have the means(1) to acquire the echelon of CRT or tire of these aforementioned means and sacrifice a bit of PQ for convenience.


Either way it's a great journey!



(1) Defining means to be monetary and/or maintenance concerns.



------------------

David R. Smith


System info: NEC 9PG in progress, Dalite 60X80 Matte (I know), ATI Radeon 64mb VIVO, ATI 7.1 player w/DC's O IRE patch , WinME.
 

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Jim,


I did misquote you, and I apologize for that. Yes, it is a small difference, but a significant one. You're absolutely right! The image from a G-90 was indeed much qualitatively better than my un-panamorphed calibrated Dila. Quantitatively, this difference was narrowed to to 10% at most, after my Panamorph was installed.


Cheers,

Luca


------------------

PICTURES OF MY THEATER
albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1659592&a=12715694&f=0


[This message has been edited by propeller_beach (edited 08-21-2001).]
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by RobertWood:
You know, there have been dozens of posts trying to compare CRT with digital. Every trivial thing has been said about this in the last few weeks. But IMO Robert Clark's two sentences above are about all that's really required to explain the difference.


Bob

You know Bob, I would bet that of all forum members you probably have the most experience with every type of projector in your home.

Sometime when you get a free weekend it would be great if you posted a rating of each one you have used and their strength/weakness!

Unless, of course you've already done this and I missed it http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif




------------------

Robert Clark

See our home theater (with very poor quality pics!)
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Album...874&a=12744078
 

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Robert,


I've owned a few projectors but in all honesty you're giving me way too much credit. A lot of these guys are career professionals (years and years of experience with all this). Compared to many who you read on these forums I'm still a relative newbie. And while I have an electronics background, very little of that has transfered over to this. I'm about as technically challenged by all this as one can be (mainly because I'm so new to PC technology).


You pegged it. A decent CRT projector still provides superior picture quality in most all ways except for the amount of light output. At least that's what my experience dictates. Of course keep in mind that I'm comparing what's affordable to most of us. It may be that a high quality 3DLP would prove otherwise (don't know). But that's a moot point for me.


I will say that my DILA would come pretty darn close if it wasn't for it's inability to make black which is crucial. Right now I'm putting all my hopes in Milorization to change that. If it does then (for me at least) the DILA's user friendliness will outweigh whatever slight PQ advantage my CRT projectors provide (in other words, I'm tired of screwing with them - which is the other point you made).


Bob


------------------

~ The Sultan of Cheap ~




[This message has been edited by RobertWood (edited 08-21-2001).]
 

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Jim,


I didn't see your DLP in the classifieds, so can't speak to what it is.


Just for argument's sake, if it's a single-chip DLP with a spinning color wheel, you're not seeing the best that digital has to offer, either.


IMO, you really need three separate primaries creating your color for best results. This only includes 3-chip DLP and D-ILA in the digital camp. All CRTs have this advantage natively.


Anyway, for apples-to-apples, make sure that the digital projector has separate (simultaneous) RGB primaries just like the CRT.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Smith:
As always, what model CRT and screen width and gain did you see


Jeff, it was a NEC 9PG on an 80 inch wide screen (same as mine) with 1.3 gain. (Far from CRT FP nirvana, but still looked very good) However I am not trying to convert anyone. I was just relaying my own "Road to Damascus" conversion as potentially interesting to other digital projector users. I still know that Digital projectors look good and are looking better all the time, and I also know the many things they have in their favor over their clunkier and larger CRT cousins.


My post was not intended as a "CRTs are better than Digital projectors troll." I was just trying to relate how I found in a CRT projector all the things I really wanted in my hometheater experiece, and I realized because of that I am willing to put up with CRT FPs many negatives.


 
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