[edgebsl]

I just got a HK 525 and I don't think its loud enough for my room/speakers!

I honestly had a sony 333es(80watt power rating?) and it actually ripped the harman side by side.(so much for harman's "honesty")

I also would like video upconversion. Is there anything in the sub$1000 price range that really pounds?


I'm looking at the sony 3000es and the pioneer 54tx as well as some good deals on the jvc dp20 thx refurbs.

 

[Artisn]

 http://img.shopping.com/cctool/PrdIm...c/22212604.JPG

You just need a little power.

Denon AVR-3805

 

[tubeguy44]

denon is NOT known for power..... just the opposite....


get an outboard amp.... either a multichannel amp or just start with a two channel for your mains and then add amps as you can afford it....


the pro amps from crown or qsc are your biggest bang for the buck right now

 

[craigsub]

I just hooked up a Denon 3805 tonight, and am running a Rocket 750 based 7.1 system in a 5700 ^3 foot room, and it kicks A$$ ... I had an H-K AVR-630 in the system prior to the 3805, and the Denon just plain trounces the H-K ...

 

[edgebsl]

I'm definitely considering the denon...it just may be towards the top end of my price range though. I liked the way my old sony sounded and i like its navigation and setup.I loathe the HK.no video upconversion.On screen menu only works through the s-video or composite out.Long dropouts from the unit's auto sensing formats and the sound is well....dull.Some people say HK sounds warm I just think its muddy.


If I thought it would be a great preamp I just get some 200w per channel pa amps and put em in the bassment in a rack.But I do despise just about everything about the 525.


Different level settings for dolby and dts? why?

That manual looks like a 5th grader typed it and printed it on his printer...what gives? Everything about the unit seems cheap except..its weight...which apparently doesnt do all that much good.


ok...enough bitching! lol

 

[craigsub]

Quote:

Originally posted by edgebsl ok...enough bitching! lol

Hey ... At least it was FUNNY bitching ! ...

 

[edgebsl]

you know...I also feel like for a street price of around$1000 ish....

Denon should have that unit full thx.Not that thx is a big selling point for me

but they do include it in their top models.I dont buy that they are trying to keep theur costs down to keep the price of the unit down for us.They just don't want george to cut into their profits! Look at pioneer and yamaha. They have thx and auto calibration on many models priced under the 3805.


i am curious how the pioneer and yamaha models deliver the db's.

 

[Artisn]

Quote:

Originally posted by edgebsl you know...I also feel like for a street price of around$1000 ish.... Denon should have that unit full thx.Not that thx is a big selling point for me but they do include it in their top models.I dont buy that they are trying to keep theur costs down to keep the price of the unit down for us.They just don't want george to cut into their profits! Look at pioneer and yamaha. They have thx and auto calibration on many models priced under the 3805. i am curious how the pioneer and yamaha models deliver the db's.

Yeah, but Yahama and Pioneer made compromises in other areas: features, connections, etc. You are trading a THX sticker for features and quality. THX sets the MINIMAL quality HT standards. That Denon VASTLY excedes them.


... and regarding tubeguy44s "not enough power" - [email protected] THAT! He obviously has not heard that unit connected to a decent set of 7.1 speakers.

 

[tubeguy44]

if you do a search on this forum and others.....


more than a few threads concerning the lack of denon power out there..... measured actual power output with all channels running was very disappointing......


i'll start looking..... but many people have experienced the lack of power with denon receivers.... it's on this forum as well as other forums....

 

[craigsub]

In the August, 2004 issue, Home Theater Mag. tested the 3805 at 5x125 WPC with 5 channels driven.

 

[Johnla]

Quote:

Originally posted by craigsub In the August, 2004 issue, Home Theater Mag. tested the 3805 at 5x125 WPC with 5 channels driven.

Yeah, and with a full 1 percent distortion.

If you are gonna throw their power test results around. At least use the 114.9 watts at 0.1% test results, and not the 125 watts at 1%



Or better yet.... Explain why Sound & Vision only got 107x5 and 93x7, when they tested the 3805....

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/ass...VR-3805lab.pdf

 

[dazbug]

Try the Sherwood Newcastle R965 if u want a real powerhorse. Just do a search. Weighs 27 kgs (Heavy power supply) and has a sound to die for !!!


And soon will incl paramatic EQ as an upgrade !

 

[tubeguy44]

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnla Yeah, and with a full 1 percent distortion. If you are gonna throw their power test results around. At least use the 114.9 watts at 0.1% test results, and not the 125 watts at 1% Or better yet.... Explain why Sound & Vision only got 107x5 and 93x7, when they tested the 3805.... http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/ass...VR-3805lab.pdf

something else to also remember about many receiver power ratings..... the 5 and/or 7 channel ratings are only at 1khz - NOT full bandwidth..... all of your separate outboard amplifiers are rated 20 to 20,000 hz....


from the above pdf file on the denon 3805....
Quote:

DOLBY DIGITAL PERFORMANCE Output at clipping (1 kHz, 8 ohms) 1 channel driven..................151 W (21.75 dBW) 2 channels driven..................139 W (21.5 dBW) 5 channels driven.....................107 W (20 dBW) 7 channels driven..................93 W (19.75 dBW)

cheers!

 

[craigsub]

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnla Yeah, and with a full 1 percent distortion. If you are gonna throw their power test results around. At least use the 114.9 watts at 0.1% test results, and not the 125 watts at 1% Or better yet.... Explain why Sound & Vision only got 107x5 and 93x7, when they tested the 3805.... http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/ass...VR-3805lab.pdf

OK Geniuses... Here Ya Go ... In the same test, using your 0.1 % distortion limit, the $1299 H-K AVR-630 puts out 5x79.7 WPC ... The $1700 Pioneer VSX-55 TI is 5 x 87.9 WPC ... The $1499 Sherwood R-865 is 5 x a WHOPPING 71.1 watts per channel.... and the $1199 Denon is 5 x 114.9 WPC ...


As for Sound and Vision... You want me to explain why they got inferior perfomance ? That is not my job...


And putting the 3805 into the IDENTICAL system has allowed us to achieve a clean 4 dB higher output over the AVR-630.


IT is measurably far superior "in system" to the AVR-630, and also measured only 1 dB below an Outlaw 750 in the same system and room.


The 3805 is a great value...

 

[tubeguy44]

receivers are ALL underpowered......


peak demands can easily demand 10 to 15 times the average listening level.... if you are using medium to low efficiency speakers and/or you have a large listening room you can easily be running 10 to 15 watts for average listening levels......


15 times 15 equals 225 watts on peak levels in dynamic music and dynamic movies.....


NONE of the receivers that you listed come even close to providing enough power..... not to even mention that if you are running 4 ohm speakers, you should not even consider trying to push them hard with ANY receiver that i am aware of.....


it is pretty simple..... get a multichannel outboard amplifier or a 2 channel amp to power your mains..... here are a couple of examples of real power.... not the pathetic power levels that you listed above...


sunfire cinema grand
Quote:

200 watts rms continuous per channel, all -channels driven into eight ohms from 20Hz to 20kHz with no more than 0.5% T.H.D. 400 watts rms per channel into four ohms 800 watts rms per channel into two ohms - time-limited basis

sherbourn 5/5210A
Quote:

Each of the 5 mono blocks is rated at 200 watts output at 8-ohms and 300 watts at 4-ohms with no more than 0.03% THD from 20-20,000 Hz... and that’s when all 5 are driven simultaneously!

gemstone blue diamond
Quote:

Power Output at 8 Ù 200 Watts Power Output at 4 Ù 400 Watts (Doubles Down) Frequency Response 10Hz - 90kHz +0/-3dB

all of the above examples run from about $1000 used or up to $2500 or so new.....


cheers!

 

[tubeguy44]

the following is a comparison chart of published vs real power of many different receivers..... it doesn't have the 3805 listed but it does have other denon models for comparison as well as h/k models.......


goes to show what many receivers can actually do....

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Holl...1/ratevsac.htm



cheers!

 

[craigsub]

Edgebsl asked for more power AND asked for suggestions for under $1000 ... That is what "sub $1000" means.


The Denon 3805 will, in a 5700^3 foot room, allow for over 105 dB peaks at the listening position. We have measured it.


For example, The Harmon Kardon AVR-630 shut down when hitting peaks of 101 dB.


The Outlaw Audio 750 was able to manage slightly over 106 dB.


I know of no amplifier that, for under $1000, will give to Edgebsl all the performance that the 3805 will.

 

[tubeguy44]

Quote:

Originally posted by craigsub Edgebsl asked for more power AND asked for suggestions for under $1000 ... That is what "sub $1000" means. The Denon 3805 will, in a 5700^3 foot room, allow for over 105 dB peaks at the listening position. We have measured it. For example, The Harmon Kardon AVR-630 shut down when hitting peaks of 101 dB. The Outlaw Audio 750 was able to manage slightly over 106 dB. I know of no amplifier that, for under $1000, will give to Edgebsl all the performance that the 3805 will.

one thing that you forgot to ask.....


what speakers is he running??.... if he is running 4 ohm speakers, the denon will be woefully underpowered.....


ANY receiver you've listed will not handle 4 ohm speakers well......


and since you dismiss anything but what you suggest, you totally disregarded my other suggestion..... using a low cost crown or qsc pro amp to power his mains will free up his current receiver to power the other channels......


for under $350 he can power his mains with over 200 watts per channel.....


in case you missed it - here is the thread in which many different forum members had the same problem.... not enough power and they put a pro amp on thier mains with great success.....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=418666


in fact, here's a quote from the very first post in that thread....
Quote:

Just purchased a pro amp, a Crown XLS-402A off Ebay for my Polk LSi speakers. I was driving them with approx 70-80wpc before with my HK AVR230 receiver in stereo mode. Hooked this baby up today and I couldn't believe my ears! She's rated at 400x2 at 4 ohms. Disgusting. I turned the gain all the way up on the Crown to see if any feedback or noise was audible and I could only hear it if I got extremely close to the speaker. It has dual fans which really aren't as bad as I thought they'd be. I can't believe you can get this much performance so cheap. It's almost like I stole the performance! ($250)

additionally - no matter what speakers the original poster has, these pro amps will power them with more than enough power in almost any size room - something that the denon may or may not be able to do....


and the denon solution still falls short on trying to meet peak power demands...
Quote:

peak demands can easily demand 10 to 15 times the average listening level.... if you are using medium to low efficiency speakers and/or you have a large listening room you can easily be running 10 to 15 watts for average listening levels...... 15 times 15 equals 225 watts on peak levels in dynamic music and dynamic movies.....

the denon 3805 might be the most powerful receiver in this price range.... but there are better ways to address his situation that will give him better and more power....




cheers!

 

[edgebsl]

ok, didnt mean to start a fight! lol

Well I'm sure the denon will meet might needs but a street price of 600-800 would be ideal if I can.And i havent seen the denon less than about 950.I have the sound and vision mag in question and I was ver impressed bythe 1% distortion ratings on the denon.. admirable.You cant hear 1 %. It outperformed the others no question. But since the sony is rated for 150 per channel even if they are fudging they have to at least drive 1 channel at 8ohms from 20 to 20 at that rating to get away with it.That still a lot of power and on par with the denon even if the power drops big time with all channels driven.


Oh and from what i saw the pioneer came close to the denon in the tests.


The denon is a last resort because its the most expensive of my considerations.

 

[Screamingelvises]

I have heard and recommended the Denon 3805 to several people. I think it is great for an under $1000 receiver. It certainly is not on par with many more expensive seperates, but it should meet your needs at the price you want to pay. I would also consider the Yamaha RXV2400 or RXV2500. All three units should be able to provide more juice than the HK or Sony unit. These may suit your needs depending on what type of speakers you are running, what are the dimensions of the room that you are in and if you have a subwoofer (to help with the bass).


Mark