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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm new here on the AVS forums, and feel a bit out of place, but from what I've seen while searching for answers in older forum posts, if the people here can't help me out with my HDTV setup, then nobody can. I'm concerned that I'll either provide too much information, or too little, and am just hoping that you guys will understand if I go too far one way or the other.


Basically I upgraded my MB and my video card from an older NVIDIA AGP card that had the old handlers and supported routing all full screen overlays to the HDTV, to a 9600 GT, only to learn that the new handlers and cards no longer support this function. NVIDIA has verified that the feature is no longer supported. SO, unless there is a work around, I need to know what kind of video card I need to buy so that I *CAN* send my HD video to the HDTV as a full resolution (1080i) overlay the same way I use to do with my old NVIDIA card. If necessary I'll get an old MB that supports AGP and go back to my old video card and handlers, but I'd really rather keep the upgraded MB/CPU, and so on, IF I can get it to work as well as my old system did. As it is, the 9600GT is totally useless for time shifting OTA HD, because there is no way to view the video on the HDTV without the full screen overlay mode which is no longer supported.


If there isn't a work around for this, prospective NVIDIA customers need to be warned about the new cards and handlers limitations.


To recap: Is there a work-around?

If not, what do I need to do what I use to do with my old NVIDIA card?


Thanks in advance.
 

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What release of what operating system are you using?

What was the model of your AGP video card?

What happens when you go into full screen mode with 1080i to your HDTV now that did not happen with the AGP card.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by walford /forum/post/14296924


What release of what operating system are you using?

XP Professional SP3

Quote:
Originally Posted by walford /forum/post/14296924


What was the model of your AGP video card?

I believe it was a 7600, but ALL of the older NVIDIA cards/handlers allowed you to route all full screen video overlays to the secondary display when in dual view mode, and the feature is MISSING on ALL of the newer NVIDIA video cards (rendering them useless in an HTPC configuration as far as I can figure out).

Quote:
Originally Posted by walford /forum/post/14296924


What happens when you go into full screen mode with 1080i to your HDTV now that did not happen with the AGP card.

In order to view some .mpg files on the HDTV the old video card had to be in dual display mode (to get the full resolution of the HDTV) and the option to route all full screen video to the secondary monitor had to be enabled. Videos that would not play without this setting include all the native format OTA HDTV I capture from my PC based HDTV receiver. It wasn't a problem with the old card, once I found the page on their support site that explained that the fix for the problem was to set the full screen overlay opion. Without the option set, you get audio, but no video, to the HDTV. NOW, with the new card and handlers, we have the same problem, in that the same videos won't play on the HDTV, and the only fix is to put the card in the mode that routes full screen overlays to the HDTV, but that option is NO LONGER AVAILABLE in the new handlers. As a result, you simply cannot use the newer NVIDIA cards in an HTPC application, unless there is some way to enable options that NVIDIA has left out of their latest offerings.


It's pretty clear from talking to NVIDIA that their newer cards are not suitable for my application unless I upgrade to Vista, and buy "certain software" (not clearly identified what that software might be) that supports full screen video independently of their handler. Since that is neither practical nor acceptable to me, what I really need to know is whether or not ANY current cards work well at the tasks at which NVIDIA has now dropped the ball. If not my only choice is going to be a return to AGP and an older NVIDIA card and handlers.


If I'm not explaining the problem well enough, ask some more specific quesions and I'll give it my best shot. The short of it is that the new NVIDIA cards lack features that I've long since found indespensible, and I'm looking for something that will give me what I use to have before the so called "upgrade" to the 9600GT. In point of fact, this has turned out to be a major DOWNGRADE, but it's my own fault for not verifying that NVIDIA hadn'd eleminated one of the features that is critical in my setup.


If anyone is actually running a 9600 GT in dual monitor mode and able to show all formats of .mpg video (including "native HD"), then they're doing something I can't figure out how to do, and from what NVIDIA has told me, they're doing something that appears to be impossible. So, if it's being done, I'd really like to know, How?


Assuming that NVIDIA is telling me the truth, and that the new cards simply will not do what the old cards did, then what I need to know is what I sould by to replace the 9600 GT. I've made one mistake, in buying the 9600 without understanding about the disabled/cripled features, and I don't want to make another mistake. It's not so much the cost of the mistake as it is the aggrivation, though both do factor in.


Same "problem" with old card and new, but the older cards had an option that "fixed" the problem, and the new cards don't. It's really just that simple.


Any suggestions? I'm more than ready to part ways with NVIDIA and spend a little more to get back to where I was before the latest "upgrade."
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I have to make at leat three posts before I can include links in my posts, so this is just a "dummy post" so that I can make another post with some links to NVIDIA tech support. I think (and hope) that the links will help clear up the issue/problem with their newer cards.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Here's the information straight from NVIDIA.


Hopefully you won't have to be logged in to access these links.


With the old card, there as *this* problem: http://nvidia.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/n...96498048&p_sp=


That worked, and was a perfect solution. However, the story has changed with the newer NVIDIA cards, as the option needed is no longer available. Again, from NVIDIA:
http://nvidia.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/n...p?p_faqid=2011


If for any reason you can't access the links, the first one tells us how to get full screen overlay to work with all video formats, using the older cards. The second link tells us that the fix is no longer available with the newer cards, and is basically telling owners of new cards that they're spit out of luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 /forum/post/14297419


Why can't you just stick the player on the second display maximized?


And what's a "handler"?

LOL, it' not any harder, but when you do that, you get audio only, and no video. NVIDIA says to fix this by enabling full screen overlay mode, but the new handlers don't support that option, so the fix doesn't work with newer cards. There is only ONE WAY to get certain (not well defined) video formats to display video with an NVIDIA card, and that is to enable the overlay option, which no longer exists with the newer cards. Doesn't matter HOW you open the video. I can start playing a video file (for example, something I've captured from my PC based HDTV receiver) playing on my computer monitor, and it's fine, but when I drag it over to the HDTV display, the video stops playing and I just get audio. This has ALWAYS been an issue with the NVIDIA cards, but there use to be a fix for it, using the overlay option that they've now removed.


I really wish it was as simple as opening the video on the HDTV and going full screen, but that doesn't work either, unless you enable the no longer available option.


Hope this makes the problem a little clearer, becaue my links above are pointing to the Wrong place, and I need to go fix them.



Good idea, but sadly it won't help with this particular issue.


LOL, and thanks for asking a question that I can answer; It's nice to be a noob and still be able to explain something to someone.
A "handler" is code (or software) that controls a device. When you open the NVIDIA Control Panel, you are opening an application that sets up parameters for the handler, making it operate in certain ways. The "handler" is the software that does the actual control of the hardware. In this case, the new handlers don't offer all the features of the old handlers, and that's probably becaue the newer hardware doesn't have all the features of the older hardware. How that can be considered an upgrade is a water mystery.
 

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Or swap displays/ set the hdtv as primary.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I need to have the desktop on my computer monitor in order to be able to see what I'm doing. These old eyes aren't what they use to be.
 

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Your second display should be in extended desktop mode not clone mode so that it can have a diferent resolution then your primary display. Then I suggest that you copy the Icons you need to start your video from the primary display desktop to the secondary display desktop so that you can start the video using either display.
 

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No, he's got the problem right. This is not an issue of clone mode or extended desktop, "older" Nvidia cards (especially some of the FX and Quadro series) allow you to send an "unmutilated" but scaled full screen image to your secondary display, when you are playing Video. This works ONLY with Video, nothing else. The image on the secondary display is perfectly scaled to it's native resolution.


Newer cards (as yet) do not allow this. Not that I could find.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Kapone is correct.


Sadly, I have now heard the last word on this from NVIDIA, and it's not good. Here's the basis of the problem, a direct quote from NVIDIA tech support ...


"I am sorry for the inconvenience caused, but please note that the Full-screen video mirroring is not supported on graphics cards based on the GeForce 8 series and later GPUs. Compliance with Microsoft’s Certified Output Protection Protocol (COPP) for content protected media has prompted NVIDIA to remove this feature for all video."


IOW, Microsoft is requiring manufacturers to delete this feature from their video cards, so it can be deligated to the VISTA OS. People like me who would prefer to stick with XP are just out of luck. We either have to use older cards with older handlers, cave in and upgrade to Vista, or put up with the limitations of the newer cards. The lesson here is that if you want a card that works under XP in an HTPC application, you need a card and drivers that were produced before Microsoft started pushing COPP down our throats.


I'm going to try my old NVIDIA handlers with my new video card. Most likely result is probably a locked system and my having to reformat and reinstall the OS, but at this point I can't use the new video card and have the features I want unless it will somehow manage to work with the older drivers. I'll let you guys know if it works, and if I stop posting, it will probably be safe to assume that I've totally hosed my system and am involved in a rather lengthy rebuild process.


Booo to Microsoft.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by REDMX5 /forum/post/14297470


LOL, it' not any harder, but when you do that, you get audio only, and no video. NVIDIA says to fix this by enabling full screen overlay mode, but the new handlers don't support that option, so the fix doesn't work with newer cards. There is only ONE WAY to get certain (not well defined) video formats to display video with an NVIDIA card, and that is to enable the overlay option, which no longer exists with the newer cards. Doesn't matter HOW you open the video. I can start playing a video file (for example, something I've captured from my PC based HDTV receiver) playing on my computer monitor, and it's fine, but when I drag it over to the HDTV display, the video stops playing and I just get audio. This has ALWAYS been an issue with the NVIDIA cards, but there use to be a fix for it, using the overlay option that they've now removed.

Sounds like you need to change your video renderer. Overlay usually only works on the primary display, but VMR usually works on either.
Quote:
LOL, and thanks for asking a question that I can answer; It's nice to be a noob and still be able to explain something to someone.
A "handler" is code (or software) that controls a device. When you open the NVIDIA Control Panel, you are opening an application that sets up parameters for the handler, making it operate in certain ways. The "handler" is the software that does the actual control of the hardware. In this case, the new handlers don't offer all the features of the old handlers, and that's probably becaue the newer hardware doesn't have all the features of the older hardware. How that can be considered an upgrade is a water mystery.

I think that's what most of us call drivers


Quote:
Originally Posted by REDMX5 /forum/post/14298713


Kapone is correct.


Sadly, I have now heard the last word on this from NVIDIA, and it's not good. Here's the basis of the problem, a direct quote from NVIDIA tech support ...


"I am sorry for the inconvenience caused, but please note that the Full-screen video mirroring is not supported on graphics cards based on the GeForce 8 series and later GPUs. Compliance with Microsoft's Certified Output Protection Protocol (COPP) for content protected media has prompted NVIDIA to remove this feature for all video."


IOW, Microsoft is requiring manufacturers to delete this feature from their video cards, so it can be deligated to the VISTA OS. People like me who would prefer to stick with XP are just out of luck.

Actually that's not really Microsoft's fault, it's the content industry. COPP is Microsoft's way of complying with the robustness requirements set forth by the likes of AACS LA and CableLabs. It's what we get for asking for support of Blu-ray, Digital Cable and Satellite.

Quote:
We either have to use older cards with older handlers, cave in and upgrade to Vista, or put up with the limitations of the newer cards. The lesson here is that if you want a card that works under XP in an HTPC application, you need a card and drivers that were produced before Microsoft started pushing COPP down our throats.

Well you need COPP if you want to watch Blu-ray, Netflix, or any other copy protected video.
 

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I understrand that the specific feature that the OP wanted is no longer avaialble I was just trying to offer another solution that might provide him with the simiiar functionality.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by REDMX5 /forum/post/14297589


I need to have the desktop on my computer monitor in order to be able to see what I'm doing. These old eyes aren't what they use to be.

See what? Switch resolutions to see the desktop on your bigscreen, run a front end, or get a laptop, or rig a pass thru. I tell ya, these dual display guys are a pita
 

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I know this thread is a bit old but I found it by accident and there is much wrong info here.


Nvidia removed the feature from the cards to appease the MPAA and MS for vista.


Nvidia is a liar.


ATI cards still have this feature in vista as I am using it now. Its called theater mode. It functions the same as it did in XP.


Buy a ATI card and tell nvidia to piss off by never buying their product again.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentprice /forum/post/14441940


I know this thread is a bit old but I found it by accident and there is much wrong info here.


Nvidia removed the feature from the cards to appease the MPAA and MS for vista.


Nvidia is a liar.


ATI cards still have this feature in vista as I am using it now. Its called theater mode. It functions the same as it did in XP.


Buy a ATI card and tell nvidia to piss off by never buying their product again.

Hi Vince,


Thanks for taking the time to respond to this old thread. I'm actually still fighting the problem, and working around it rather than enjoying the nice easy to use PCTV setup I use to enjoy.


NVIDIA probably is lying, but I actually read the mandate from Microsoft, and NVIDIA is NOT lying about Microsoft mandating the change. IF I can verify that any given ATI (or any other) SLI Video card still supports the full screen routing capabilities, I'll order one IMMEDIATELY. Do you know of any way that I might be able to get some verification? How old is your ATI card, and what model is it? This "mandated change" to the handlers/drivers is very recent, having taken place (apparently) in just the last few months, so if your card is more than a few months old it may not have the same handlers that ATI is shipping now. I don't want to by yet another video card that turns out to be useless because of Microsoft mandates, and I can't find anywhere in ATI or NVIDIA specs where they state whether or not the feature is available (and the cards are too expensive to just keep buying different ones until I stumble across one that works.



Over the last month I have been able to determine that Microsoft also went out of their way to make it difficult, if not impossible, to control full screen overlay routing using their runtime librarly (the "NET Framework"). If you want that control now, it looks like it's VISTA or an older video card with older handlers (and an older motherboard with an AGP slot).


If you can positively identify a specific model of video card that still supports what I'm looking for, I absolutely WILL order one, and be forever in your debt.


Thanks again for responding to this old thread. The "problem report" is still open and unresolved.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by REDMX5 /forum/post/14707913


Hi Vince,


Thanks for taking the time to respond to this old thread. I'm actually still fighting the problem, and working around it rather than enjoying the nice easy to use PCTV setup I use to enjoy.


NVIDIA probably is lying, but I actually read the mandate from Microsoft, and NVIDIA is NOT lying about Microsoft mandating the change. IF I can verify that any given ATI (or any other) SLI Video card still supports the full screen routing capabilities, I'll order one IMMEDIATELY. Do you know of any way that I might be able to get some verification? How old is your ATI card, and what model is it? This "mandated change" to the handlers/drivers is very recent, having taken place (apparently) in just the last few months, so if your card is more than a few months old it may not have the same handlers that ATI is shipping now. I don't want to by yet another video card that turns out to be useless because of Microsoft mandates, and I can't find anywhere in ATI or NVIDIA specs where they state whether or not the feature is available (and the cards are too expensive to just keep buying different ones until I stumble across one that works.



Over the last month I have been able to determine that Microsoft also went out of their way to make it difficult, if not impossible, to control full screen overlay routing using their runtime librarly (the "NET Framework"). If you want that control now, it looks like it's VISTA or an older video card with older handlers (and an older motherboard with an AGP slot).


If you can positively identify a specific model of video card that still supports what I'm looking for, I absolutely WILL order one, and be forever in your debt.


Thanks again for responding to this old thread. The "problem report" is still open and unresolved.

He was using Vista, so what you are trying to do would probably work with your card, if you switched to Vista. As far as having it work in XP it is probably not going to happen. One thing you could do is somewhat like someone suggested before. Make your TV the main display, extend your desktop, and copy all of the icons you need to your "PC display" so to speak. It sounds like it is either that, buy Vista, or maybe you can do what you are trying to do in linux.... don't know, just a thought.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by LucidGoldfish /forum/post/14915748


He was using Vista, so what you are trying to do would probably work with your card, if you switched to Vista. As far as having it work in XP it is probably not going to happen. One thing you could do is somewhat like someone suggested before. Make your TV the main display, extend your desktop, and copy all of the icons you need to your "PC display" so to speak. It sounds like it is either that, buy Vista, or maybe you can do what you are trying to do in linux.... don't know, just a thought.

Thanks for the response. I'm still working around the problem, in a way similar to what you describe, and you're right about using Vista too. Sadly, Linux doesn't seem to be a way out, as the handler/driver is still crippled.


The thing that gets my goat about all this is that I can get what I use to enjoy by going with an older, outdated video card and MB, but can't get it with the newer cards unless I go to Vista. IN the end all I can say is this...


Gee, Microsoft, THANKS! (NOT!!!!!)



BTW, I even tried writing my own code to handle the problem through DirectX, and it just isn't possible (as far as I can ascertain) becaue MS has forced the video card manufacturers to cripple their handlers. BOOO MS.
 
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