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Discussion Starter #1
I was at my local Home Theater store the other day and saw an upconverted DVD (via the Sony Digital Reality Creation upconverter that is built into their KD-34XBR2 High Definition set) and the picture looked as good as HDTV. I was skeptical at first (I thought the feed was from one of those Senacore HDTV players), but the salesman showed me it was through the Sony DVD player that was sitting next to the HDTV set. I was able to pause and stop the DVD for myself. The same DVD feed was going to 2 other WEGA sets in the room and it looked about like VHS quality next to the upconverted picture on the KD-34XBR2. Has anyone is the forum witnessed this before?


Dave
 

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Sony's DRC circuit has received its share of praise since debuting about 2 years back. I've seen it really shine on Sony's 4x3 WEGA line.


Sony's megapriced G90 front projector has DRC as well, so at least the low level models are in good company if that makes you feel better.


I am of the opinion that integrated signal processing techniques included in most HDTV's and progressive scan DVD players, most notably line doubling techniques, have their place and can be effective at times. Would I buy a TV just because of this added bonus, a year ago yes, today a more knowledgeable no would be my answer.
 

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I've had a 34XBR2 for about a month now. I would have a hard time telling the difference between the 480i source and 720p, although probably some of the more dicerning eyes here could. When the source is 1080i though, such as with some of the better PBS HDTV demos, the detail is just mind blowing. Very noticeable.

Fred
 

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I haven't seen this technology in detail, but the tricks that manufactuers use to make an image look better are very impressive. If I had the extra cash to go with a Sony instead of my Pioneer, I think I may have done so.


OUT
 

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Re: RDave's comment about a DVD showing on a 34XBR2, I experienced the same thing in a store this weekend. The picture quality on the 34XBR2 was excellent, and significantly sharper than the same DVD signal fed to a 40XBR700.


Re: fred_richmond's comment that he could not tell much difference between 480 and 720p, I suspect that is because Sony says that the built-in receiver down-converts 720p to 480p instead of upconverting it to 1080i as most other units do. I know that's not what Twice reports in its monitor survey, but I was assured by a Sony technical rep that it worked that way.


Now, that being said, the set's picture quality at 480p may be sufficient that it doesn't matter all that much.
 

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DVD has alot less pixels and datarate than true HDTV.


Most people who think that DVD is as good as HDTV haven't seen a display capable of showing HDTV in its full glory.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
PVR,


that is the point of this post, I have seen HDTV in "it's full glory", and the upconverted DVD is comparable. I went back to my Home Theater store yesteday and had them put the upconverted DVD (which is a Sony produced demo DVD) along side the Senacore HDTV demo hard disc feed (via Sony's "picture on picture"), and the images were comparable.


Dave
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by RDave
(via Sony's "picture on picture")
Dave,


I have the Sony 34xbr2 and am very happy with it. However, I have noticed that when using Sony's side by side picture, that the picture on the left is always better then the picture on the right even then they come from the same source.


Mike
 

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Don't let Jack Valenti find out about this!:D
 

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>> PVR,

>> that is the point of this post,

>> I have seen HDTV in "it's full glory",


No - I don't think you have.


My point was that those of you who argue that

DVD looks as good as HDTV have not seen

a proper HDTV source paired to a high quality

HDTV display capable of showing the full 1080i

picture.


Many home theater shops will show you

many "so called" HDTV displays that do

not have the capability of showing more

than approx 1300x800 worth of resolution.


Probably most of the HDTVs sold already cannot

show all the detail of a true 1080i HDTV source.


If you look harder to find a very high end

specialty home theater shop which has a $30,000+

display device (like a Sony G90 for instance)

properly calibrated and hooked to a good

HDTV source (like HDnet live sports) then you

will know that DVDs are not capable of showing

that kind of realism and quality.
 

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i agree size has a lot to do with it. When i was shopping the small sets always looked superior in picture to the larger sets in general. Stuff like satellite compression artifacts were easier to spot on a big screen then a small direct view. Even when i shopped for my 57HW40 i noticed the smaller version (51HW40) had a noticable better picture when showing the same satellite content.
 

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I sometimes use a 19" computer monitor to watch HDTV and upconverted DVD. Even though the screen is relatively small, it displays nearly all the resolution of an HDTV signal. When I compare the best HDTV signal to the best upconverted DVD signal, it is obvious to me that HDTV has much more detail.
 

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I ran a test where I had about 10 people look at HDTV (on a Sony 10HT) and the same clip downconverted to 480p. I ran them sequentially, starting with 480p. Only two immediately noticed the HDTV was better. I then when back to 480p. Several more noticed that it got "worse". Even after going back and forth a couple times, a couple people didn't see the difference until I pointed out specific areas of the clip to watch.

I've spent a lot of time watching football in digital broadcast, upconverted and true HDTV. HDTV wins by a mile, but I've spent a lot of time studying it.

What's this all mean? If you're an experienced watcher and sit close enough, HDTV is clearly better if it's done right. However, there's a lot of not very good HDTV (including some of the Sencore clips), so that even experienced viewers may not see the difference.

For me, HDTV is the way to go, because when it's right, it's awesome! I believe that as it gets more widespread, the quality will be more consistent. However, if you sit more than about 2 screen widths away, or your eyesight isn't real good, or you're not at least a bit of a videophile, then good upconverted stuff is probably a more cost effective solution.
 

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Look at the Specs for the Sony 10HT.

It is not full 1080i resolution.

Something like 1365x768.


You are missing alot of the 1920x1080 signal.
 

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Top HD content is so much better than the best scaled DVDs, at least on anything less than a Teranex I guess, that its not even funny, particularly if its HD-Video based content. A couple who live in the apartment complex here invited me over for a dinner a few nights ago. The guy helped me mount my projector when I got it, since I needed a helping hand not because he's an expert :) They aren't HT'ophiles at all.


So they'd come over and see a DVD on my system, which is HTPC based and provides about as good scaling as you can get for DVD. They thought it looked very good of course. That was probably almost a year ago. When they came back over after dinner a few days ago to watch another DVD, I had some HD-Net content up. I didn't even have to mention what it was. They both went "wow, that looks amazing!". I told them it was HD and they were quite impressed.


The thing is that my HTPC is set up to output optimal resolution for my projector (1280x720), but the 1080i HDTV content has considerably greater resolution than my projector can actually display. So even with only resolving say 11/16ths of the HD signal, it is still glaringly obvious which is better.

Quote:
I went back to my Home Theater store yesteday and had them put the upconverted DVD (which is a Sony produced demo DVD) along side the Senacore HDTV demo hard disc feed (via Sony's "picture on picture"), and the images were comparable.
Do you mean some sort of image on top of an image? If so, then that's a completely irrelevant comparison. The whole point of HD content is its greater resolution, which you will obviously not see if you put up in some little popup window. The only valid comparison is when you display them such that they each are shown reasonably close to their available resolution. And if the set can't resolve much more than DVD resolution anyway, then of couse it won't look better because you can't get a higher resolution image than the display can show you, no matter how good the source content is.
 

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Dave,

PVR is absolutely right about the difference between DVD & HD. Anyone that feels they look the same is either viewing it on a device that in not even close to showing the true resolution of HD or watching it on a screen that is so small, it couldn't begin to show the detail clearly. HD has about 3-4x times the picture information of DVD. Aside from that the color palette is far greater in HD than DVD. There is no "digital reality creation" that can derive detail that simply isn't there. I suggest there is something radically wrong with the setup you viewed. I know the Sony is not capable of displaying all the detail in a high definition picture, but it certainly is capable of showing a distinct difference between DVD and HD. Don't be fooled!!!
 

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Quote:
Look at the Specs for the Sony 10HT.

It is not full 1080i resolution.

Something like 1365x768.


You are missing alot of the 1920x1080 signal.
I really don't think you are. Any detail above that resolution is either not present at all or the contrast is low enough as to be virtually inperceptable.


Frank
 

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I beleive the resolution of HD materail depends on the processing it has gone thur; I have read that sometimes video processing can reduce the hoz resolution down to about 1400.


I find a reason people arent impressed with hdtv is their eye sight. Even alittle loss of sight can make a noticible difference.


I fact in my case my sight loss was so small I didnt even realize I had any till a free eye exam. And after I got glasses the hdtv picture got a very percevable amount better, yet dvd and sd tv didnt improve much. And importantly as I said before my eye sight was not that bad, I did not, and do not even need glasses to pass my drivers license eye exam.


A friend of mine didnt see a great difference in hdtv from dvd till he got his glasses either. Yet he was getting along fine without glasses, so his eye sight was not bad either, tho worse then mine.


Anyway just a thought as to why some peolpe dont see alot of improvement in PQ with hdtv.


tony
 

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Quote:
I beleive the resolution of HD materail depends on the processing it has gone thur; I have read that sometimes video processing can reduce the hoz resolution down to about 1400.
True enough. And lower still after receiver filtering. But rather than repeat myself I'll cite this recent thread (my 11/6 post and its sublinks). -- John
 
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