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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just received my Epson 6100 in the mail. I was excited, though the retailer was bumbling and confused, and even made some misrepresentations. However, all would be well if the projector was what I hoped it would be.


I just sold my Panasonic AE-900U which had 2600 hours on it and still had the original bulb as bright as ever. I thought I would be making a big improvement due to the brightness, 1080p resolution, better contrast, etc. of the Epson.


I spent the entire evening on the phone with Epson tech support and finally realized that the Panny 720p simply has a sharper picture, better color, and more film-like image. I am totally bummed.


Also, the Epson would not allow for some of my HD channels to show as 16:9. The projector will not allow an HD aspect ratio to be changed, so I had side bars on HD channels that were 16:9 on my Panny and are 16:9 on my other TVs. Tech said there is no way around this.


Some of the HD channels even had horizontal bars. It varied from channel to channel...some HD had no bars, some had horiontal bars, and some had vertical bars, with varying width.


The Epson struggled with blacks and concert lighting on the state-of-the-art Rush Live blu-ray disc, while the Panny handled these much, much better.


It blows my mind that the Panny was sharper on most scenes than the Epson on blu-ray despite the resolution difference!


I'm now afraid the dealer is going to hit me with a re-stocking fee since he changed or reneged on everything he told me to get the sale. He even told me on the phone that my Panny didn't have lense shift, only keystone correction. I'm a novice, but I'm almost certain that what I was doing with the Panny was lense shifting, not keystone.


Anyway, as I said, I couldn't be more disappointed in the mediocre sharpness of the Epson. I am shocked that there isn't an improvement on blu-ray going from 720p to 1080p after a 3 year advancement in technology. Not only do I have the unpleasant experience of negotiating a return with an unsrupulous dealer, but I also have to go back to the drawing board to replace a projector that I'm now realizing was far from obsolete based on what I will apparently have to spend to see an improvement.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by davoran /forum/post/15469615


I just received my Epson 6100 in the mail. I was excited, though the retailer was bumbling and confused, and even made some misrepresentations. However, all would be well if the projector was what I hoped it would be.


I just sold my Panasonic AE-900U which had 2600 hours on it and still had the original bulb as bright as ever. I thought I would be making a big improvement due to the brightness, 1080p resolution, better contrast, etc. of the Epson.


I spent the entire evening on the phone with Epson tech support and finally realized that the Panny 720p simply has a sharper picture, better color, and more film-like image. I am totally bummed.


Also, the Epson would not allow for some of my HD channels to show as 16:9. The projector will not allow an HD aspect ratio to be changed, so I had side bars on HD channels that were 16:9 on my Panny and are 16:9 on my other TVs. Tech said there is no way around this.


Some of the HD channels even had horizontal bars. It varied from channel to channel...some HD had no bars, some had horiontal bars, and some had vertical bars, with varying width.


The Epson struggled with blacks and concert lighting on the state-of-the-art Rush Live blu-ray disc, while the Panny handled these much, much better.


It blows my mind that the Panny was sharper on most scenes than the Epson on blu-ray despite the resolution difference!


I'm now afraid the dealer is going to hit me with a re-stocking fee since he changed or reneged on everything he told me to get the sale. He even told me on the phone that my Panny didn't have lense shift, only keystone correction. I'm a novice, but I'm almost certain that what I was doing with the Panny was lense shifting, not keystone.


Anyway, as I said, I couldn't be more disappointed in the mediocre sharpness of the Epson. I am shocked that there isn't an improvement on blu-ray going from 720p to 1080p after a 3 year advancement in technology. Not only do I have the unpleasant experience of negotiating a return with an unsrupulous dealer, but I also have to go back to the drawing board to replace a projector that I'm now realizing was far from obsolete based on what I will apparently have to spend to see an improvement.

Davoran, the Panny most assuredly has lens shifting (horizontal and vertical), as does the Epson. Too bad about your experience with the dealer; sounds like a bad apple. But the Epson by all accounts should be a noticeable step up from the Panny. Somethin's not right.
 

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You sure you have the bluray player outputting 1080p? If its still set to 720p, then having to resample to a higher res would make it appear noticeably duller.

Also, unless you're the calibrator type (which i would recommend), then i'd go through some of the presets and see if one looks better than another. Black levels and contrast can be destroyed on any projector if it is not setup right.
 

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I just bought a 6100 tonight and swaped out my Sony HS51 (I know its been a while). Thay Sony is an amazing projector (thats why I had it for almost 4 years) but the 6100 is eye popping, right out of the box. The lens shift and leveler feet are great and set up was easiest ever for me for a PJ. Almost looks 3D on Video HD feeds. I have not even adjusted (calibrated) it yet at all (I'll be up late tonight).


I agree something must be wrong with the Epson to not notice a big picture upgrade. Maybe you can swap it out with the retailer? Try different pic settings, the menu is simple to use. If you wear glasses you should put them on!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrod1937 /forum/post/15470004


You sure you have the bluray player outputting 1080p? If its still set to 720p, then having to resample to a higher res would make it appear noticeably duller.

Also, unless you're the calibrator type (which i would recommend), then i'd go through some of the presets and see if one looks better than another. Black levels and contrast can be destroyed on any projector if it is not setup right.

Yes, the blu-ray is doing a 1080p output. In defense of the Epson, my cable company only does 720p or 1080i, no 1080p. However, the 720p on the Panny looks better than 1080i on the Epson, no matter what I set the output on the cable box to.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by davoran /forum/post/15469615


Also, the Epson would not allow for some of my HD channels to show as 16:9. The projector will not allow an HD aspect ratio to be changed, so I had side bars on HD channels that were 16:9 on my Panny and are 16:9 on my other TVs. Tech said there is no way around this.


Some of the HD channels even had horizontal bars. It varied from channel to channel...some HD had no bars, some had horiontal bars, and some had vertical bars, with varying width.

If I understand you correctly, your Epson is probably displaying those channels correctly.
 

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Never seen an the Panasonic you have, but the 6100 is incredible to my eyes. Just hooked up the FiOS TV HD PVR to this puppy for some HDNet Movies. Amazing... and all I have is a sheet and a room with blinds. Looks great with lights on in the room, too.


I have to say lower res content looks soft and ugly in some of the high brightness modes. Theater Black 1 looks best.


While I was writing this response, I was watching Falling Down on my new 6100, Theater Black 1, out of the box to a sheet, 110" image size. From FiOS HD PVR recorded from HDNet Movies. Shows as 1080i.




-comix
 

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There is no comparison between those two models regarding sharpness (unless you have a defective 6100) , the 6100 is much sharper than the AE900 . I think you just adjusted to the smoothscreen tech in the AE900 and the digital look of the 6100 is bothering you
.


- Jason
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Is there an inexpensive way to calibrate? I'm clearly doing something wrong.


If I can't get this thing to look better than the Panny on blu-ray and HD, it is going back. It is definitely brighter and more digital looking, but the sharpness is mediocre. I just can't believe this is how this projector is supposed to look. Also, on some images with alot of white, it struggles to provide any definition, and it also does this with big blocks of black. On one dark blue image, a jacket, the jacket looked digitized and the color was blotchy and the blotching moved some...like bad digital.


What am I doing wrong???????
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by davoran /forum/post/15471806


Is there an inexpensive way to calibrate? I'm clearly doing something wrong.


If I can't get this thing to look better than the Panny on blu-ray and HD, it is going back. It is definitely brighter and more digital looking, but the sharpness is mediocre. I just can't believe this is how this projector is supposed to look. Also, on some images with alot of white, it struggles to provide any definition, and it also does this with big blocks of black. On one dark blue image, a jacket, the jacket looked digitized and the color was blotchy and the blotching moved some...like bad digital.


What am I doing wrong???????

Its difficult to say what you are doing wrong, but there is no way a non-defective 6100 will look worse then the Panny 700. Are you using HDMI or component cable?


Actually I had a similar experience 2 years ago when I upgraded from the Infocus X1 to the Panny ax100u. I just got the new PJ and connected to my existing setup (a non-upconverting Sony dvd changer using component out) and was shocked to see the PQ. Even though it was brighter and had more vivid colors, there was just so much digital noise it looked like a poor TV transmission. Basically the Panny was uncovering the limitations of the source which the X1 hid. But then I upgraded to an upconverting DVD player using HDMI output and what a difference it made.


Now in your case you are already using a BD player so the source is not the problem. If you are not very tech savvy, may be get some friend of yours who could help in figuring out what the problem might be.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by davoran /forum/post/15471806


Is there an inexpensive way to calibrate? I'm clearly doing something wrong.


If I can't get this thing to look better than the Panny on blu-ray and HD, it is going back. It is definitely brighter and more digital looking, but the sharpness is mediocre. I just can't believe this is how this projector is supposed to look. Also, on some images with alot of white, it struggles to provide any definition, and it also does this with big blocks of black. On one dark blue image, a jacket, the jacket looked digitized and the color was blotchy and the blotching moved some...like bad digital.


What am I doing wrong???????

Why don't we assume you aren't doing something wrong? This isn't your first projector. An inexpensive way of calibrating is to use the DVE Video Essentials disc, but it sounds to me that you problems you have with the 6100 go beyond what a simple calibration can do.


I read the review of your old PJ at projectorcentral.com, and this phrase jumped out at me:


"You will find that the AE900 shines in color accuracy, color saturation, and a smooth, filmlike image that is totally lacking in pixelation."


From Art's blog at projectorreviews.com comes this quote in regards to the 6100:


"While, like other Epson's I don't consider it the most film-like it is good, and the trade-off is a nicely dynamic image - a bit more wow and pop than most of the competition offers."


Now, on paper, the Epson should be WAY better than the Panasonic. That said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The Epson may be technically better than the Panny, but the image provided may not ba as pleasing to you. The Epson may be able to show exactly what the Director of the film had in mind, but if you prefer the Panny's picture - even if it is "wrong" - then you stick with the Panny.


Every projector displays a slightly different image. My HD80 looks great to me, but I'm sure someone will say their Marantz VP4001 looks way better. Again - it is all in the eye of the beholder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy /forum/post/15470469


If I understand you correctly, your Epson is probably displaying those channels correctly.

This is a pet peave of mine. Sometimes showing the incorrect thing looks better. When watching HD Television broadcasts, any display should have the ability to alter the image AS WELL as being able to show the native aspect ratio. If a program happens to be shot in 2.35:1 there should be a way of altering that to show it as 1.78:1 (standard 16:9) if the viewer chooses to do so. I know it is not the videophile way of doing things, but it should at least be an option.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hayneskr /forum/post/15473634



This is a pet peave of mine. Sometimes showing the incorrect thing looks better. When watching HD Television broadcasts, any display should have the ability to alter the image AS WELL as being able to show the native aspect ratio. If a program happens to be shot in 2.35:1 there should be a way of altering that to show it as 1.78:1 (standard 16:9) if the viewer chooses to do so. I know it is not the videophile way of doing things, but it should at least be an option.

I totally agree with you. Allowing to change the aspect ratio is a pretty basic feature that all widescreen devices should have. It beats me that why some manufacturers choose to ignore it. A watch a lot material downloaded from the internet (not the kind you are thinking :) and a lot of times they are encoded with the wrong AR. My panny ax100u allows changing the AR to any of the supported ones while the samsung lcd doesn't allow to do that (at least with the HDMI input) which is very frustrating.


I hope the Epson is not as limiting as the Samsung, otherwise I'll have to consider returning it.
 

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> It beats me that why some manufacturers choose to ignore it


Could it be related to some weird HDCP rule that forbids to mess with the picture? My 720p Epson does it, too, but I can change everthing on the HTPC side. Otherwise, I'd be quite upset about Epson greying out aspect/zoom options for HDMI connections.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by davoran /forum/post/15470370


Yes, the blu-ray is doing a 1080p output. In defense of the Epson, my cable company only does 720p or 1080i, no 1080p. However, the 720p on the Panny looks better than 1080i on the Epson, no matter what I set the output on the cable box to.

I had a very similar experience moving from the AE900u to the epson HC720 - no matter how I set my satellite output box, I got a less-than-sharp picture and was thinking of sending it back ...


I then discovered Epson's 1:1 pixel-matching mode -- i.e. doesn't do any scaling, map the input to the display 1:1 ... it's under the 'Aspect' settings and is called 'Through'. hit the 'aspect' button on the epson remote.


[ even though the DVR was set to output 720p the epson was doing some scaling until I set it to 'through'.]


The HC720 is native 720 -lines; I set my Dish DVR to output 720p; using 'Through' aspect I got the clarity back and am really happy.


This introduced a secondary 'issue' -- I zoomed / lens-shifted my DVR picture to fill my fixed screen - which was then too large for how the epson wanted to display DVDs @ 480p ... I finally ended up w/ the HD-DVR picture showing some overscan, which I then shifted up to clear the top of the display ...


which is a long-winded way of saying - check your screen size/shape against all your inputs -- BUT use Through mode for your HD sources and set those sources to output 1080.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I'm feeling better. The retailer is taking it back. I am buying the Panasonic 3000, which uses an improved version of the design I already own. The price difference is modest (around $500 street price between the Ep 6100 and the Pan 3000).


I should have the Panny by the weekend.


Thanks for all of the thoughts and suggestions. This reminds me of when I traded in my Martin Logan Ascents. Everyone said I was crazy, but those speakers were so difficult to place, the sweet spot was narrow, and they were very unforgiving of the mastering of 80% of the popular music released.


While trading in the Epson 6100 for the Panasonic 3000 might sound silly to some, I think it will be best based on my personal tastes and needs.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by davoran /forum/post/15478616



While trading in the Epson 6100 for the Panasonic 3000 might sound silly to some, I think it will be best based on my personal tastes and needs.

Um, the AE3000 is better than the Epson 6100 in virtually everyway. Yes, the Epson is brighter, but the Panasonic is bright enough. I think you made the right purchase.
 

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Davaron

I am not second guessing you or your ability to setup a projector but are you sure you had the sharpness set right and the throw distance set right?


I ask because at first I was not happy either with the sharpness on the 6100 nor the picture quality. Is your room light controled or a lot of ambient light?


Reading Art's page and stating the new Epsons are in the upper range of sharpness I figured I did not have it set right.


I did research, talked to a few friends and purchased the DVE bluray.


I am shocked at HOW far off I was honestly. I just watched transformers and it was like watching a completely new movie I had never seen.


The terms used as "WOW" and "POP" in arts reviews of Epsons I understand now. It was almost 3D like. The color was amazing and the sharpness, well hard to explain.


I would note that I found out I had my projector to far from the screen based on some local "experts" advice and he was DEAD on right. I remounted the project to the distance he listed. Reset everything with the DVE Bluray and now all I want to do is re watch every movie I own.


Hey look at it this way you may be getting one the best projectors out this year with the new Panny.


Hope it all works out for you.
 
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