AVS Forum banner
1 - 20 of 28 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
OK, so I am running the AE4000 in standard 16:9 mode and filling up a 113" 16:9 screen. What I want to do, is make a new screen that is the same height (55") but make a 2.35:1 screen.


The projector is hanging lower that the top of the screen at this point, so from what I read this makes things easier.


My problem is that if I switch to 2.35:1 mode on the projector, the image is being displayed about 8 inches below the top of the screen. When I zoom in to fill the screen, it zooms downwards and does not get any closer to the top.


NOW, do I have to use the vertical lens shift to get it to the top of the screen? If so, will I have to use the lens shift every time I go from 2.35:1 to 16:9??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,866 Posts
I used to have the AE3000, but as far as I know the AE4000 is similar. WShen you save your lens memory it includes a vertical position, horizontal position as well as focus and of course zoom. So long as your projector is physically below the top (or above the bottom) of the screen there should be enough range in these electronic controls.


You should set the 16:9 memory using the mechanical lens shift controls if neccesary, keeping the electronic postion controls at '0' and save this setting and name it 16:9 (or 1.78:1 if you like). Then zoom for 2.35:1 so that your screen height is filled (you can try this now with your existing screen just to see how it works) and adjust the postion controls and focus as required: DO NOT FURTHER ADJUST THE MECHANICAL LENS SHIFT CONTROLS at this point. Save this setting as 2.35:1.


You should now be good to go. The added feature you have over my old AE3000 is that you can use the automatic aspect switching so that the AE4000 will zoom for 2.35:1 when it detects the black bars and then zoom back to 16:9 when the bars go (like once you're back at the menu). I don't know how good/useful the auto feature is, but it's for you to try (I figure it might start zooming in and out at inappropriate times especially during the trailers of a disc).


I hope this helps you to go 2.35:1.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S /forum/post/18190814


I used to have the AE3000, but as far as I know the AE4000 is similar. WShen you save your lens memory it includes a vertical position, horizontal position as well as focus and of course zoom. So long as your projector is physically below the top (or above the bottom) of the screen there should be enough range in these electronic controls.


You should set the 16:9 memory using the mechanical lens shift controls if neccesary, keeping the electronic postion controls at '0' and save this setting and name it 16:9 (or 1.78:1 if you like). Then zoom for 2.35:1 so that your screen height is filled (you can try this now with your existing screen just to see how it works) and adjust the postion controls and focus as required: DO NOT FURTHER ADJUST THE MECHANICAL LENS SHIFT CONTROLS at this point. Save this setting as 2.35:1.


You should now be good to go. The added feature you have over my old AE3000 is that you can use the automatic aspect switching so that the AE4000 will zoom for 2.35:1 when it detects the black bars and then zoom back to 16:9 when the bars go (like once you're back at the menu). I don't know how good/useful the auto feature is, but it's for you to try (I figure it might start zooming in and out at inappropriate times especially during the trailers of a disc).


I hope this helps you to go 2.35:1.


Here is whats happening though. The top image is what it looks like in 16:9 mode. The bottom is what happens when I switch to 2.35:1 and zoom in. I have tried using the vertical (electronic) shift, but I cannot get it to the top of the screen...

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
131 Posts
What do you mean by “If I switch to 2.35 mode on the projector”?


If you have the projector set to fill your 16x9 screen, simply play a DVD/BD that is 2.35/2.40 AR and zoom the image out until the active 2.35 image is 55” high (height of your screen) by ~129" wide (width of 2.35 image at 55” height).


Now adjust the V-AREA POSITION under the LENS CONTROL menu and see if it will allow enough movement to get the top of the 2.35 image to the top of your screen. If it doesn’t allow enough range, then you have to use the manual vertical lens shift every time you switch from 16x9 to 2.35 and vice versa.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,866 Posts
If what ziptie says doesn't give enough range, you have a couple of options:


1. Apply some V-area position to your 16:9 setting, but in the opposite direction to your 2.35:1 setting. This will crop part of your 16:9 image to do this, but it might help and if it's from the top of the image (as my setup was) then it's usually liveable.


2. Apply a very slight tilt to the projector. I can't remember why this should work and it will cause some keystone issues as well, but if it's only a little bit then you might find that it will be taken up by your screen border.


3. Lower the projector or raise the screen until it does fit. Might not be possible, but if you're changing the screen anyway, worth considering having a shorter drop perhaps?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
131 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtousign /forum/post/18190869


Here is whats happening though. The top image is what it looks like in 16:9 mode. The bottom is what happens when I switch to 2.35:1 and zoom in. I have tried using the vertical (electronic) shift, but I cannot get it to the top of the screen...

Did any of our suggestions solve your issue?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ziptiecowboy /forum/post/18197924


Did any of our suggestions solve your issue?

Sorry, what I meant by switching to 2.35:1 mode was when I put on a movie recorded in that mode, I could not get the zoom/v-area adjustments to the top of the screen.


The only viable option I have would be to angle the projector and use the keystone adjustments which I do not want to use. I spent a lot of time setting the projector in the horizontal centre of the screen and using only vertical lens shift to adjust the image.


am going to stick with 16:9 I guess for now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
131 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtousign /forum/post/18198049


Sorry, what I meant by switching to 2.35:1 mode was when I put on a movie recorded in that mode, I could not get the zoom/v-area adjustments to the top of the screen.


The only viable option I have would be to angle the projector and use the keystone adjustments which I do not want to use. I spent a lot of time setting the projector in the horizontal centre of the screen and using only vertical lens shift to adjust the image.


am going to stick with 16:9 I guess for now.

I looked at your setup in THIS thread and from what I can tell, your projector looks like it should be low enough to do dual AR where your screen in mounted.


Is the center of the lens on your AE4k at or below the top of your screen (not the border)? Also make sure that when you are projecting a 16x9 image, all the electronic lens position settings are zeroed (including masking settings), set this as your 16x9 memory preset and then zoom to fill the 2.35 image. Then adjust the V-AREA POSITION and see if it will move the image to the top of your screen.


One other thing I just thought of, make sure you are adjusting the V-AREA POSITION under the LENS CONTROL menu and not the V-POSITION under the POSITION menuthere's a big difference between these controls and the V-AREA POSITION is the only one saved in the memory presets.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ziptiecowboy /forum/post/18198290


I looked at your setup in THIS thread and from what I can tell, your projector looks like it should be low enough to do dual AR where your screen in mounted.


Is the center of the lens on your AE4k at or below the top of your screen (not the border)? Also make sure that when you are projecting a 16x9 image, all the electronic lens position settings are zeroed (including masking settings), set this as your 16x9 memory preset and then zoom to fill the 2.35 image. Then adjust the V-AREA POSITION and see if it will move the image to the top of your screen.


One other thing I just thought of, make sure you are adjusting the V-AREA POSITION under the LENS CONTROL menu and not the V-POSITION under the POSITION menuthere's a big difference between these controls and the V-AREA POSITION is the only one saved in the memory presets.


I tried everything you have suggested. The image still will not hit the top of the screen. In fact, its about 8 inches below the top.


The projector does sit below the top of the screen.


Maybe what I need to do is adjust the 16:9 so that it uses V-Position and less vertical lens shift, then when I switch to 2.35:1 settings, I can lower the V-Position and everything will work just fine.


It seems to make sense in my head... does using V-Position degrade image quality?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
866 Posts
Your 16:9 image fits the screen perfectly and the projector lens in located below the top of the screen, correct?


For the same 16:9 image, what happens when you zoom out to 2.35 width (i.e. zoom out 1.33x) without adjusting any (physical or digital) vertical shift - does the top of the image over-spill the top of the screen?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
131 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtousign /forum/post/18202262


I tried everything you have suggested. The image still will not hit the top of the screen. In fact, its about 8 inches below the top.


The projector does sit below the top of the screen.


Maybe what I need to do is adjust the 16:9 so that it uses V-Position and less vertical lens shift, then when I switch to 2.35:1 settings, I can lower the V-Position and everything will work just fine.


It seems to make sense in my head... does using V-Position degrade image quality?

V-POSITION in the POSITION menu will not degrade the image, but it is a global setting and will affect position no matter where you set the zoom, so be certain it is set to zero. Get your 16x9 image aligned on the screen using the manual lens position adjustments and keep all the electronic image position controls at zero for your 16x9 setting and save to one of the LENS MEMORY presets. The only controls you should be messing with after zooming to 2.35 are in the LENS CONTROL menu.


Do you have the ASPECT set to 16:9? Make sure you’re not in ZOOM or V-FIT mode or something like that.


I don’t know what it is, but you’ve got something setup wrong. I did some experimenting with my setup yesterday just to confirm all this and I had no problem getting the dual AR to work at a fixed screen height as long as the lens was just below the top of the screen.


Now, my AE4k is ceiling mounted 15’ from my 122” wide 2.35 screen, with the lens 5” above the top of the active screen area, so I have to use manual lens shift whenever I go from 16x9 to 2.35 and vice versa, but I simulated raising my screen so that the top of the lens would be even with the top of the screen and I had no problem raising the 2.35 image with V-AREA POSITION to realign the image after zooming.


The active 2.35 image is dropped about 8” after the zoom and V-AREA POSITION raises it back up the 8”. I determined that with the center of the lens even with the top of the screen I was at the travel limit of V-AREA POSITION, so having the top of the lens even with the top of the screen works out well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilsiu /forum/post/18202430


Your 16:9 image fits the screen perfectly and the projector lens in located below the top of the screen, correct?


For the same 16:9 image, what happens when you zoom out to 2.35 width (i.e. zoom out 1.33x) without adjusting any (physical or digital) vertical shift - does the top of the image over-spill the top of the screen?

Nope. It stays right at the top of the screen and increases downwards.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I can take pictures tonight to show whats happening. Here is a diagram to show what happens if I zoom using a 16:9 source...

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
131 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtousign /forum/post/18203562


Nope. It stays right at the top of the screen and increases downwards.

Those illustrations got me thinking about this further, there must be a relationship between the degree of manual vertical lens shift and exactly how the image zooms, otherwise why would this dual AR thing be dependent on the relationship of the projector lens height to screen height, other than it requires more manual vertical lens shift if the projector is above or below the screen area.


So if the projector is centered to the screen vertically, does the zoomed image expand above and below the screen equally vs. expanding in a complete downward direction when the projector is near the top of the screen as shown above?


I'm just thinking out loud here rtousign. I have to mess around with this a bit more this evening, maybe I'm missing something.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ziptiecowboy /forum/post/18203664


Those illustrations got me thinking about this further, there must be a relationship between the degree of manual vertical lens shift and exactly how the image zooms, otherwise why would this dual AR thing be dependent on the relationship of the projector lens height to screen height, other than it requires more manual vertical lens shift if the projector is above or below the screen area.


So if the projector is centered to the screen vertically, does the zoomed image expand above and below the screen equally vs. expanding in a complete downward direction when the projector is near the top of the screen as shown above?


I'm just thinking out loud here rtousign. I have to mess around with this a bit more this evening, maybe I'm missing something.

Basically, if I zoom, it zooms down and out. It does not expand up. This is why I am thinking if I adjust for 2.35:1 first, it will be easier to play around. I am also thinking that the problem may be the way the image is projected from the unit.


You know if you sit a projector flat on a table, the image is projected upwards and you cannot lower it, so the exact oppostie happens when projected upside down from the ceiling. It seems I can only get the image height to be level with the height of the lens.


Maybe if I angled the projector up a bit I could get this to work... but then I would be introducing Keystone which I really really want to stay away from.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
131 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtousign /forum/post/18204558


Basically, if I zoom, it zooms down and out. It does not expand up.

Yes, mine reacts the same way, but I’m wondering if the lens were centered vertically with the screen, would the image expand equally up and down. If that’s the case, then as you move the lens further from the center of the screen on the vertical axis, the “geometry” of the zoom changes and that could limit if the V-AREA POSITION control has sufficient movement to readjust the 2.35 frame position.


Also, screen size and throw distance may factor in as well…lots of variables.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
508 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ziptiecowboy /forum/post/18204758


Yes, mine reacts the same way, but I'm wondering if the lens were centered vertically with the screen, would the image expand equally up and down.

That's the case. At dead vertical center, you zoom in, the image expand equi-distance at the top and bottom. As you move up the projector lens, starting enaging vertical lens shift, and zoom in, the top will expand by smaller and smaller distance, while the bottom expand bigger and bigger distance. When the projector lens is at the top of the screen, and you zoom, the top does not expand/move any more, with all increase in height came from the bottom of the image. If you move the lens further up, the top will start to be pushed down. Hence the mounting limitation, if one uses the zooming method of the Panny 4K. If they can manage to include motorized lens shift, then this will be much easier.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
508 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtousign /forum/post/18204558


Maybe if I angled the projector up a bit I could get this to work... but then I would be introducing Keystone which I really really want to stay away from.

If you angle it up, you'd have to use manual lens shift to get the 16:9 image onto the screen, and you are back to the same problem.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
508 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ziptiecowboy /forum/post/18202808


Do you have the ASPECT set to 16:9? Make sure you're not in ZOOM or V-FIT mode or something like that.


I don't know what it is, but you've got something setup wrong.

Went back and read the whole thread. I'd agree with ziptiecowboy. To start figuring out what's going on, it would be helpful if you can show the settings on your Picture, Position, Lens Control menus.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
131 Posts
Lets see if we can walk through this and figure it out. I just spent about an hour going through my setup and I can guarantee you that the dual AR works on the AE4k without using manual lens shift as long as the lens is not above the screen. Actually, while I was screwing around, I got my setup to work without manual lens shift and my lens is 5” above my screen…I just had to cheat the top of my 16x9 image about an inch and it works just fine.


Ok, you’ve already told us that your projector is level and the lens is below the top of your screen, so we’re good there.


Project some 16x9 material (your DVD menu will work), zoom to fill the height of your screen and focus, align the 16x9 image using the manual lens shift dials.


Go into the POSITION menu and make sure all values are set to zero and ASPECT is set to 16:9. Now go to the LENS CONTROL menu and set all values to zero. If any of the values are not zero, set them to zero and realign your 16x9 image using the manual lens shift. Now go to the LENS MEMORY SAVE and save these settings to LENS MEMORY 1 and label it 1.78 or 16:9 or whatever you want.


Put in a 2.35 AR DVD/BD. It should play on your 16x9 screen with ~6.5” high black letterbox bars above and below the active 2.35 frame. Good so far? Now, zoom the 2.35 image out until the active 2.35 frame (the actual picture) is 55” tall (your screen height) and refocus. The image should drop down as you’ve already experienced. Now, go into the LENS CONTROL menu and increase the V-AREA POSITION value until the top of the active 2.35 image reaches the top of your screen (mine is set to +33 to achieve this, max is +63).


See if you can get that far. If it works, save all those settings in LENS MEMORY 2 and label it 2.35 or whatever. If you can’t get that to work, you’ve got me stumped because I know it works on my AE4k.


Give it a shot and let us know.
 
1 - 20 of 28 Posts
Top