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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi, everybody, I'm new here and I just thought I would post this here. I'm looking to finally upgrade my CRT TV to a LED tv. However I have no clue where to start researching. Today is LED technology the best for the price? Also does anybody have any recommendations for a 55-60 inch tv? I'm looking for good performance for a good price range. Nothing too extreme. Are there any particular brands that tend to be better then others? If anybody could help me along my journey to finding the perfect tv for my family room it would be much appreciated.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Oh and audio performance isn't much of an issue as I'll be upgrading my audio system as well. I went looking today and saw the Sharp LC-60LE832U and LC-60LE633U. Does anybody have any opinions about Sharp and their Quattron technology?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by yuuko
Hi, everybody, I'm new here and I just thought I would post this here. I'm looking to finally upgrade my CRT TV to a LED tv. However I have no clue where to start researching. Today is LED technology the best for the price? Also does anybody have any recommendations for a 55-60 inch tv? I'm looking for good performance for a good price range. Nothing too extreme. Are there any particular brands that tend to be better then others? If anybody could help me along my journey to finding the perfect tv for my family room it would be much appreciated.
If you are looking into 3D I would say look into the LG 55LW5600. I recently bought this TV and couldn't be happier. I saw your other post on the Sharp. I considered this tv and even had it as my "buy" tv but I changed my mind when I saw some pics of sone horrible flashlighting and clouding. Also I think the quattron is a waste because there is not one single broadcaster that uses a RGBY signal. I don't know how the TV itself uses that forth pixel but I know nobody is directly telling the tv to turn that pixel on and leave the red and green pixels off.


Anyway yeah I looked at MANY MANY tvs before I settled on the LG. But I mainly got the LG because I wanted 3D and I needed passive and the other two passives I saw (Toshiba and Vizio) just didn't appeal to me.


I haven't calibrated my tv yet but after owning it for a little less than a month and using it with out og the box setting it's a damn good tv for the little money I paid for it.
 

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3D may not interest you but its going to be a feature included on many TV's. It was restricted more or less to the high end models but has now filtered to the middle range models.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Does anybody have any expeirence with the Sony BRAVIA XBR55HX92? Or similar line? I see that is has local dimming and a full array? How much of a difference will this make? Also how much are these models affected by color shift?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by yuuko
Does anybody have any expeirence with the Sony BRAVIA XBR55HX92? Or similar line? I see that is has local dimming and a full array? How much of a difference will this make?
Quite a large difference actually. This is not always the case, but: a rule of thumb is an LED backlit full array lighting system will usually have better uniformity and black level control vs. the edge lit. Edge lit sets really have no benefit vs the traditional LCDs besides them being able to be very very thin.


However, that doesn't mean the other aspects of the tv's performance will be better.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thank redwolf4k. The thickness of the TV doesn't isn't an issue for me. I wouldn't want to sacrifice performance for aesthetics. And since I will not be buying another TV for a long long time, I just really want to make sure that I'm headed down the right path. The only problem that is it's in a different price range lol, but I guess you get what you pay for. Does anybody have any recommendations for TVs worth investigating? There are so many choices now it's hard to know where to start.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by yuuko
Hi, everybody, I'm new here and I just thought I would post this here. I'm looking to finally upgrade my CRT TV to a LED tv. However I have no clue where to start researching. Today is LED technology the best for the price? Also does anybody have any recommendations for a 55-60 inch tv? I'm looking for good performance for a good price range. Nothing too extreme. Are there any particular brands that tend to be better then others? If anybody could help me along my journey to finding the perfect tv for my family room it would be much appreciated.
LED is LCD with a different light source. To (over) simplify an LCD panel consists of individual pixels, each one of which acts as a sort of light filter that allows light to pass through it in different colors and at different levels of brightness. By itself it can't produce any light so a "backlight" is required. Since an lcd produces black by blocking light, and no lcd panel can do this perfectly, all sets will automatically dim the backlighting during dark scenes to enhance black levels.


Conventional LCDs use a Cold Cathode Flourescent (CCFL) tube array behind the lcd panel. LED sets use Light Emitting Diodes. The vast majority of led models have the leds at the edges of the screen with light channelling diffuser to channel the light inward toward the center and outward thru the lcd panel. These are notorious for uneven screen illumination. A very few led models have the leds actually mounted behind the lcd panel and most of these allow for independent dimming in different zones behind the lcd panel to further enhance the difference between bright and dark objects on the screen. These "local dimming" sets have generally better screen illumination uniformity.


So if even screen illumination of an lcd set is a high priority you either have to get a ccfl model (usually among the least expensive) or a local dimming LED (always among the most expensive). That's not to say that edge lit led is a no-go. They are by far the most common lcd sets around now and different people have different levels of sensitivity to flashlighting and clouding effects, depending on ambient room light and picture content (bright rooms and bright content minimize the problems).


An LED set will be thinner, very slightly brighter, usually have deeper blacks because leds can be dimmed more than ccfl tubes, be lighter in weight and use slightly less electricity. They don't, imho, represent the best value for money. The few remaining ccfl sets are a better choice for a no-frills (no internet apps, no 3D) set as far as value for money. Specifically look for a Sony KDL55EX500 (check the owner's thread here). If you're not a plasmaphobe some models of those offer better pq for the buck. The two Sharps you mention also represent good value for money--they do offer more features like built-in WiFi and internet apps and are less prone to uneven illumination than some other brands, particularly Samsung.


As for LCD brands you're pretty safe with Sharp, Sony, Samsung, LG, in no particular order. Lots of people like Vizio but I consider them a second tier product with lousy customer support once the warranty expires. Some of them have really nice pq, but don't get one without an extended warranty with a replacement provision because they have lousy parts availability.
 

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Yuuko,


You haven't provided an important piece of information - the type of room and lighting environment you're putting your new TV in.


If it's a darkened basement, the best bang for buck today is in plasma. The new line of Samsungs is pretty much the top of the line in terms of review scores. Plasmas tend to be rather power hungry and run hot, and don't get as bright as LCD sets. So they're good for a basement-style environment in which ambient heat is less of an issue and where light can be controlled easily.


If it's a living room with variable lighting, LCD will be able to produce brightness that competes with sunlight and room lighting. The more matte the screen, the better, since a shiny screen will give you lots of distracting reflections.


The question of whether LED back- or edge-lighting provides the best price/performance ratio is more complicated than "yes" or "no."


An edge-lit LED set (like my own Sony 52EX700) doesn't really offer performance benefits over a CCFL backlit set. But it offers much more efficient power usage (many times 1/2 to 1/3 of the power), much less ambient heating of a room (a big deal in the summer), and at least potentially longer life.


An LED back-lit set with local dimming does offer performance benefits, specifically deeper possible black levels. On the other hand, many local dimming sets suffer from blooming issues on small, bright images surrounded by dark areas (such as movie credits, or stars in a night sky) because the number of dimmable LED zones (in the backlight) is nowhere near the number of pixels (in the image). So they have pros and cons. You can of course turn off the local dimming to avoid these issues, but then you may as well have gotten an edge-lit set. In my opinion, LED back-lit sets with local dimming are not quite priced at a level commensurate with the performance gains. For instance, If you compare the Sony 55HX929 to the Sony 55HX729, there is a $1000 premium, essentially only for the backlight. Most Sony and Samsung edge-lit panels have very deep baseline black levels anyway, and the difference would only be apparent in the darkest rooms.


As far as disliking 3D goes, I'm with you, but if you want the best-performing, fullest-featured 2D sets that Sony, Samsung, or LG have to offer, you'll probably be looking at models that feature 3D anyway. It's kind of unavoidable at this point, and there isn't a big price premium for 3D anymore. So just buy one and stick the 3D glasses on the shelf.


So in summary - buy a set that fits your room environment. If you're looking for future-proof features, you're going to have to go with 3D anyway at this point. If you can manage it, actually compare sets with an in-person viewing. If price is no object, the sure, go for a local dimmer. But if "bang for buck" is in play, consider plasma or an edge-lit set (depending on room environment).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve S /forum/post/20792622

all sets will automatically dim the backlighting during dark scenes to enhance black levels.

Not all sets do this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Thanks mweflen for the informative post. The room is a fairly large room with high ceilings. Plenty of light during the day time, but we like to watch movies at night as well. So basically an all around TV. I will go to the store soon to checkout both of the sony models you mentioned to see if I can see a difference but at this point I don't think the $1000 price difference justifies the local dimming full array at this point, I would much rather put that extra cash towards my sound system.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by yuuko /forum/post/20794930


Thanks mweflen for the informative post. The room is a fairly large room with high ceilings. Plenty of light during the day time, but we like to watch movies at night as well. So basically an all around TV. I will go to the store soon to checkout both of the sony models you mentioned to see if I can see a difference but at this point I don't think the $1000 price difference justifies the local dimming full array at this point, I would much rather put that extra cash towards my sound system.

As the owner of an edge-lit Sony set (52EX700) I can tell you that their implementation of the technology is sound. Although the edge-light can show uniformity issues at higher backlight levels on a black screen (i.e. slightly lighter patches called "flashlighting"), if you have your set tuned well, (i.e. have the backlight turned down to a reasonable level) it's really not noticeable at all on any normal programming. It is just as good as a CCFL set, in my estimation. If you're looking for bang-for-buck in an edge-lit set, the 55EX720 might be a nice pick.

http://www.televisioninfo.com/conten...DTV-Review.htm


It has a great black level, accurate color, and a semi-matte screen. Current MSRP is 1799, which means you'll likely find it around 14-1500 at a brick and mortar store. Sony's sets also have comprehensive streaming features, and the 720 has 3D just in case. It would be my pick for the best "bang for buck" all-around performing LCD.


Keep in mind, I'm not trying to steer you to Sony exclusively. Samsung and LG make nice, comparable sets. But I do like Sony' menu system, streaming options, and physical chassis better than the other two. Samsung has some weird issues with calibration (HDMI lag sue to processing, ghosting out certain options for certain inputs), and LG sets generally don't have black levels as deep.
 

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Basicly the top of the line LCd of a manufacturer - often the Local Dimming - has the best allround performance.


When you watch a lot of tv in the dark or nearly dark room a top (full array Local Dimming) LCd or a Plasma would be the best choice, in all other cases a decent middle of the road performer ( LCd ) would be the right choice.


Keep in mind that CRT and Plasma are more alike.
 

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You should always check sets out in person just to judge for yourself, but personally I think the extra cost of a full-array LCD is definitely worth it. To my eyes, the performance gains aren't small. Blooming is a problem, but to me it's a better problem to have than trying to watch the uneven, often murky blacks I see in edge-lit sets. Everybody has their own threshold, but I really can't stand the uniformity issues that edge-lit LED sets inherently possess. The Sony HX929 is the all-around best performing LED-LCD available currently because it is backlit. Sharp also has a forthcoming 60" LED-backlit, locally dimmed set coming out this month, the PRO-60X5FD, and LG has a forthcoming 55" (The LW9800, I believe? not quite sure) coming out soon.


If you don't care about 3D, you can still find one of the best local dimming LCDs ever made - the LG 55LHX (55", 240Hz, matte finish; 2009 model) heavily discounted online.


If you don't want to spend on a locally-dimmed model, an edge-lit LED with "pseudo-local" dimming is a good midway point. These models can use software to break the edgelight up into large "zones" across the panel (usually not exceeding 12-16 zones) to control the contrast and distribution of the light. This can introduce some artifacting within itself, but these edge-lit models usually have better dark-room/movie watching performing and are more adept at displaying dark scenes. Examples of this type of LED are the LG LW5600, LG LW6500, Sony NX720/HX729/HX820, and Samsung D6900/D7000/D8000
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatuglyguy /forum/post/20796134


Blooming is a problem, but to me it's a better problem to have than trying to watch the uneven, often murky blacks I see in edge-lit sets.

I dunno. I wonder if the sets you've viewed were tuned well. The diffusers on edge-lit sets aren't perfect, to be sure. But most sets are so bright that you can set the backlight level to minimum and still get a very punchy image. At the minimum setting, most good edge-lit sets won't show any flashlighting except on a completely black screen in a darkened room.


The difference in black level between current gen Samsung and Sony LED edge- and back-lit sets is on the order of 0.06 vs. 0.03 cd/m2, respectively. Not very noticeable in anything but totally dark conditions, with totally black screens.
 

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I have tweaked many an edge-lit set inside a Magnolia showroom. Not totally, completely dark, but not very bright either. These rooms are meant to emulate a "home" environment. Ones that I remember well were sets such as the Sony XBR10, Sony LX900, and Sharp LE920/925UN. To be sure, yes, turning the backlight down does indeed lessen the severity of clouding and flashlighting to sometimes, perhaps, even negligible levels. I have found, however, that it does not eliminate it completely, which I find maddening. I guess I'm one of the few people who actually love watching movies at night in a completely darkened room. In other words, this is when and how I do my most "critical" viewing. It is in this environment that full-array sets with local dimming excel.


Back when I was purchasing an LCD, I originally purchased a CCFL-backlit model, a Toshiba XV645. After I took it home and adjusted it accordingly, I found the picture great in the daytime, but disappointing at night - e.g. when watching movies in the dark. It was not so much that the black levels were not good or (relatively) deep, it was that the backlight was not uniform, even when the brightness was low. This is the problem that I have with edge-lit sets; it's not so much that they have poor black levels, because they certainly don't. It's because they simply aren't and can't be UNIFORM because all the light is coming from the edge. This is especially apparent in larger-sized panels, e.g. 55", 60" panels. Aside from higher potential light output and reduced cabinet depth, LED edge-lit models produce no real discernible performance advantage over the heavyweights of CCFL when they were still being produced - like the Samsung A850, B/C 750, Sony Z5100/XBR9. It's also seemed that with the introduction and domination of edge lit sets uniformity has gotten worse than old fluorescent-based sets. The real improved performance has always come from LED-backlit models, and one of the main benefits-aside from deeper blacks (which are definitely discernible to anyone planning on doing any remotely critical viewing) is near-perfect uniformity, which helps as panels get larger.


To address blooming - I have found that the amount of annoyance it presents is relative to your distance from the screen. The LG LX9500 looked horrible close up. When I sat down at a normal distance from the panel, the blooming was just about negligible. Most LCD-based TV sets are an exercise in compromise in one way or another, but reading these forums or reading reviews, a universally shared opinion is that backlit, LD LCDs offer the best performance and least compromise when compared to, say, a plasma.
 

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I agree that LED edge-lighting does not offer image quality performance benefits over CCFL. I stated so above. I just think, based on personal experience, that uniformity issues on a decent edge-lit set can generally be mitigated by turning down the backlight. And, you know, not watching a blank screen
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
It's been a while since I've posted, and I thank you all for your valuable input. At this point I'm looking and leaning toward the Sony KDL60NX720 edge-lit with local dimming. I was wondering if anybody has had any input on this particular model or has suggestions to other similar models (particularly the blacks and black quality).


I believe the best bang for the buck without going full array lies somewhere in the edge list with local dimming. Also, I read that the configuration settings on this set is somewhat more simple compared to some other models out there. Has anybody noticed this to be a problem of any sort when calibrating or does it still do just fine.


I was also able to check out the Elite series both the 60 and 70 inch and they are very nice, but I just can't justify the $$$.
 
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