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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Came back from a friend's house. Just bought a Sony Bravia 52". I already had several HDMI cables from Bluejeans and I spared him the "Monst"rosity at Best Buy. Originally went to watch the Leafs and Sens NHL game in HD but his box was acting up so we decided to watch Dark Knight on Blu-ray. I've never paid much attention to what 120hz does to movies. And I have seen some demos and it looked "too soap opera-ish for me". However, when you're immersed in the story, you just admire it.


The Imax scenes (especially the bank robbery looked AMAZING!). So much so that I was very jealous of his setup. Yea, my audio beats the living crap out of his tv speakers, but that picture looked stunning! And it really is a different experience. The whole Batpod chase sequence had a smoothness that I never saw and I can see why some love/hate 120hz. It isn't my cup of tea for conversation scenes, but the fast moving ones really make up for it. I hope this technology continues to improve.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by eightninesuited /forum/post/15452116


Came back from a friend's house. Just bought a Sony Bravia 52". I already had several HDMI cables from Bluejeans and I spared him the "Monst"rosity at Best Buy. Originally went to watch the Leafs and Sens NHL game in HD but his box was acting up so we decided to watch Dark Knight on Blu-ray. I've never paid much attention to what 120hz does to movies. And I have seen some demos and it looked "too soap opera-ish for me". However, when you're immersed in the story, you just admire it.


The Imax scenes (especially the bank robbery looked AMAZING!). So much so that I was very jealous of his setup. Yea, my audio beats the living crap out of his tv speakers, but that picture looked stunning! And it really is a different experience. The whole Batpod chase sequence had a smoothness that I never saw and I can see why some love/hate 120hz. It isn't my cup of tea for conversation scenes, but the fast moving ones really make up for it. I hope this technology continues to improve.

Glad you like the "look". However, i must correct you in that it's not the 120hz panel that is responsible, 120hz panels are primarily used to compensate for motion blur that is inherent to LCD's because the pixel refresh rate is slower than plasma and RPTV's. So these sets double the pixel refresh rate from 60hz sources.

What is responsible for your "stunning" remark is the video processor. More specifically frame interpolation . OEMS have their own name for it, but it smooths judder to eliminate the jerkyness of the camera panning etc. This is what creates the soap opera look depending on the strength of the setting. Some people think it makes film unatural looking, others feel it immerses you more like 3D. The good thing is it can be turned off or all the way up to high.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by lipcrkr /forum/post/15452364


Glad you like the "look". However, i must correct you in that it's not the 120hz panel that is responsible, 120hz panels are primarily used to compensate for motion blur that is inherent to LCD's because the pixel refresh rate is slower than plasma and RPTV's. So these sets double the pixel refresh rate from 60hz sources.

What is responsible for your "stunning" remark is the video processor. More specifically frame interpolation . OEMS have their own name for it, but it smooths judder to eliminate the jerkyness of the camera panning etc. This is what creates the soap opera look depending on the strength of the setting. Some people think it makes film unatural looking, others feel it immerses you more like 3D. The good thing is it can be turned off or all the way up to high.

Thank you. I'm a 720p projector guy so I just assumed it was the 120hz. Perhaps a little off topic, but who generally makes the best "frame interpolation" across their tv lines?
 

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I watched the bluray lastnight and again toight, on 24p. It was crisp.


The friends 120 set might have been selected to 24p, most owners do for blurays.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by eightninesuited /forum/post/15452529


Thank you. I'm a 720p projector guy so I just assumed it was the 120hz. Perhaps a little off topic, but who generally makes the best "frame interpolation" across their tv lines?

Well, after calibrating hundreds of Sammy 6, 7, and 8 series, i am partial to Samsung's AMP (auto motion plus) . But my primary reason for liking the Sammy 120hz displays over the Sony's are the UCP ultra clear panels . Yes, they are glossy, but if you can control the light in the room these panels will reward you with a more immersive experience compared to Sony's matte screen. IMO, matte screens look too digital, the UCP's gives you more depth, and depth is what makes people extracate the "wow" factor. Also, the gloss screen gives you more deeper blacks, not measurement wise, more of a perception. The 120hz Sony's are great sets, their frame interpolation is a little more subtle than Sammy (this could be good or bad depending on personal preference). I could never buy a matte display again, especially once the display is properly calibrated (like using b & w sources first). But the Sony is a great choice if you have light issues and prefer a tamer VP.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplemath /forum/post/15452669


I watched the bluray lastnight and again toight, on 24p. It was crisp.


The friends 120 set might have been selected to 24p, most owners do for blurays.

Yes, with the 120hz sets you can get the more natural 5:5 sequence because 24 x 5 = you guessed it....120hz.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lipcrkr /forum/post/15452726


Well, after calibrating hundreds of Sammy 6, 7, and 8 series, i am partial to Samsung's AMP (auto motion plus) . But my primary reason for liking the Sammy 120hz displays over the Sony's are the UCP ultra clear panels . Yes, they are glossy, but if you can control the light in the room these panels will reward you with a more immersive experience compared to Sony's matte screen. IMO, matte screens look too digital, the UCP's gives you more depth, and depth is what makes people extracate the "wow" factor. Also, the gloss screen gives you more deeper blacks, not measurement wise, more of a perception. The 120hz Sony's are great sets, their frame interpolation is a little more subtle than Sammy (this could be good or bad depending on personal preference). I could never buy a matte display again, especially once the display is properly calibrated (like using b & w sources first). But the Sony is a great choice if you have light issues and prefer a tamer VP.

I like AMP on low on my 950. You talked about AMP on high with a SM adjustment. I'm a little nervous about making the adjustment to see what it looks like. How would you compare AMP low vs your SM adjustment on high?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by omeletpants /forum/post/15452886


I like AMP on low on my 950. You talked about AMP on high with a SM adjustment. I'm a little nervous about making the adjustment to see what it looks like. How would you compare AMP low vs your SM adjustment on high?

Omeletpants, i rarely recommend using high. I have stated many times in the Sammy threads that the best balance is using low. Medium could be an option for Pixar type movies. But i do recommend low for BR and 1080i sources. I also never turn AMP off. Also, as far as calibration, i'm not in the calibration business. I don't use pro instruments or use the SM, i don't recommend using the SM to anyone.

I think everyone at home should calibrate in the standard/movie mode and bring it "up". What i mean is most people start off in dynamic or have the brightness etc on torch mode and then turn it down a notch. I'm not a big fan of calibration threads, it's too general. Each enviroment is different, and one click here or there can make or break a proper calibration. What i do is use a black & white HD source to set the proper black levels first. Having the deepest blacks possible without affecting the shadow detail is the best place to start because these settings are what makes or break the overall PQ. Once the backlight is set with the proper balance of black level then go on to the colors. As far as AMP, the low setting will blow people away because the correct black level, meaning the perfect balance of blacks, shadow detail, and whites, along with the clear panel, will, in essence, give you a stronger AMP setting "look" without the baggage like artifacts, vapours, TBE, etc.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by omeletpants /forum/post/15452886


I like AMP on low on my 950. You talked about AMP on high with a SM adjustment. I'm a little nervous about making the adjustment to see what it looks like. How would you compare AMP low vs your SM adjustment on high?

Why would you get nervous over a setting that can be readjusted?
 

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I must agree. I got the KDL-52XBR6 on Christmas eve and have been on the fence with motion flow but once I put in the Dark Knight I started to come around, everyone I show it to was blown away. Cannot wait to hook up my dads xbr6 when his arrives.
 

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AMP rules.
 

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Does Amp only have an effect on Blu Ray? I don't have a player yet and I've had my 40" 630 since November. During my research I read about Amp and the soap opera effect everywhere and continue to. But I haven't seen it yet and I've tried. I've ran amp on high, low, med, demo mode and off and can't tell a difference. I love the set but I'm curious as #### to see what people are talking about.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lipcrkr /forum/post/15452364


Glad you like the "look". However, i must correct you in that it's not the 120hz panel that is responsible, 120hz panels are primarily used to compensate for motion blur that is inherent to LCD's because the pixel refresh rate is slower than plasma and RPTV's. So these sets double the pixel refresh rate from 60hz sources.

What is responsible for your "stunning" remark is the video processor. More specifically frame interpolation . OEMS have their own name for it, but it smooths judder to eliminate the jerkyness of the camera panning etc. This is what creates the soap opera look depending on the strength of the setting. Some people think it makes film unatural looking, others feel it immerses you more like 3D. The good thing is it can be turned off or all the way up to high.

I know that this subject has been beat to death. I'm not totally disagreeing with you -- just want to clarify or expound upon it. Yes, 120 Hz can reduce motion blur even with no motion enhancement (interpolation). And yes, you can apply some motion enhancement even to a 60Hz set. Sony's Cinemation (set at level 2) did this on their older high end CRT sets that were 60 Hz.


However, with 120Hz, since you have twice the number of frames, that becomes an enabler for an improvement in motion enhancement. I'm just talking here of 60 fps material - like a live football game. In other words, it is hard to insert interpolated frames if there is no time to insert them.


Now, if I understand the motion enhancement correctly, when viewing 24 fps material, instead of just repeating the same frame 5 times in a row, you now have 4 interpolated frames in-between every 5th "real" frame. Each of those frames can be slightly different than each other.


Robert
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lipcrkr /forum/post/15453584


Omeletpants, i rarely recommend using high. I have stated many times in the Sammy threads that the best balance is using low. Medium could be an option for Pixar type movies. But i do recommend low for BR and 1080i sources. I also never turn AMP off. Also, as far as calibration, i'm not in the calibration business. I don't use pro instruments or use the SM, i don't recommend using the SM to anyone.

I think everyone at home should calibrate in the standard/movie mode and bring it "up". What i mean is most people start off in dynamic or have the brightness etc on torch mode and then turn it down a notch. I'm not a big fan of calibration threads, it's too general. Each enviroment is different, and one click here or there can make or break a proper calibration. What i do is use a black & white HD source to set the proper black levels first. Having the deepest blacks possible without affecting the shadow detail is the best place to start because these settings are what makes or break the overall PQ. Once the backlight is set with the proper balance of black level then go on to the colors. As far as AMP, the low setting will blow people away because the correct black level, meaning the perfect balance of blacks, shadow detail, and whites, along with the clear panel, will, in essence, give you a stronger AMP setting "look" without the baggage like artifacts, vapours, TBE, etc.

Thanks, I also agree on the Movie Mode as a start then raise up from there. But i previous threads I believe you talked about a SM mod for high AMP and I'm wondering with that adjustment how would you compare to low AMP?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakeman02 /forum/post/15454232


Does Amp only have an effect on Blu Ray? I don't have a player yet and I've had my 40" 630 since November. During my research I read about Amp and the soap opera effect everywhere and continue to. But I haven't seen it yet and I've tried. I've ran amp on high, low, med, demo mode and off and can't tell a difference. I love the set but I'm curious as #### to see what people are talking about.

I don't have one either -- yet. Just been doing a lot of research and reading. I have read other owners report that it does improve things like football games. Some who report hating the effect on movies say they like it on action sports.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by omeletpants /forum/post/15454407


I'm cautious anytime I go into the service menu

Strange. I didn't have to go to the service menu to change the AMP on the 750. Did they changed this?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek7300 /forum/post/15454403


I know that this subject has been beat to death. I'm not totally disagreeing with you -- just want to clarify or expound upon it. Yes, 120 Hz can reduce motion blur even with no motion enhancement (interpolation). And yes, you can apply some motion enhancement even to a 60Hz set. Sony's Cinemation (set at level 2) did this on their older high end CRT sets that were 60 Hz.


However, with 120Hz, since you have twice the number of frames, that becomes an enabler for an improvement in motion enhancement. I'm just talking here of 60 fps material - like a live football game. In other words, it is hard to insert interpolated frames if there is no time to insert them.


Now, if I understand the motion enhancement correctly, when viewing 24 fps material, instead of just repeating the same frame 5 times in a row, you now have 4 interpolated frames in-between every 5th "real" frame. Each of those frames can be slightly different than each other.


Robert

How can 120 Hz reduce LCD blur without frame interpolation or blank frame insertion?
 

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I'm curious, Will we ever see the Samsung Auto Motion Plus or Sony MotionFlow motion enhancement features on 720p TVs that are 60hz?


Since those modes contribute to the Soap Opera effect, It would be interesting if it they can be done on 720p TVs running at 60hz.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by vud911 /forum/post/15454519


Strange. I didn't have to go to the service menu to change the AMP on the 750. Did they changed this?

In the user menu there are 3 levels of AMP that you can adjust. But he found a setting in the SM where he could adjust the High AMP to make it very smooth. I'm trying to find out how that adjustment compares to AMP set a low on the user menu
 
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