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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
i just wanted to give you an idea of what an ideal bass driver would look like.


for a 18" it would have a 500 pound neodymiu motor with about 20 pounds of neodymium in it. it would have a voice coil of roughly 12" in diameter and a voice coil 1" long in a magnetic gap that was 2.5" deep. with about 1.6T field in the gap.


it would have roughly 1" of xmax. its efficiency would be roughly 105db/watt and with EQ it would have in-room response flat to DC using an enclosure of about 1 cubic foot.


it would have a BL factor of about 40 with MMS of about 150 grams.


its 12" voice coil would weigh about half of what a typical 3" voice coil weights because it would be wound with hair thin ribbon.


it would have several pounds of copper in just the shorting sleeve and its frequency response would extend to about 10 khz.


now compare whatever driver you're buying today to this and you will see the kind of garbage you're paying for.


this driver could be built today and the only problem in building it would be that it'd cost about $10,000.


Kevin Haskins would produce a driver that was 20 times cheaper, required a box 10 times bigger and was 10 times less efficient and would state that in fact his driver is just as good because of Hoffman's law.


i think what you people need to realize is what the common denominator in this game is: the amount of neodymium in the motor.


the people making subwoofers will never admit this. they will come up with every sort of argument to make it seem as if you can get performance out of thin air but you cant. there will always be a tradeoff which they will try to obscure.


but the bottom line is you really do need tons and tons of neodymium in an enormous motor with an ultra light weight voice coil.


the ratio of conductor mass to neodymium mass in a ribbon tweeter is very very different from that in a subwoofer. a ribbon probably gets 1,000 times the neodymium for the same moving mass. when a subwoofer gets built the same way ( 100 gram moving mass with 1,000 pound neodymium motor ) then you will know what performance is !
 

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That's not a shot a Kevin

It's Vas's normal post bong water babble

Vas needs to learn how to manipulate a model from a reverse engineering POV

That is to say that you pick a few real attainable characteristics and forge ahead from there

Almost all of the assumptions above are very unrealistic
 

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I guess the soft spot in vas's heart for tc sounds drivers has been pushed aside for exodus. Its unnecessary.


The only problem Kevin has is selling all of his product (if that's even a problem). Vas, your driver sounds very good except for one bad thing. Its price. No one, or at least very very few would buy it. That why Kevin is going to keep going with his, in your mind, sub par drivers. He will be sitting back with a constant paycheck coming in while you get to say how well your driver performs. All the while you haven't sold a single driver.

"you can't think you have supreme executive power just because some watery tart lobbed a sword at you".


Time for some new threads...


"someone explain surrounds to me". Contents - how can we make surrounds more flexible and tough at the same time?


"August 20 vas's titanium law and seal fat and leather surround". Content - anyone not using seal fat and leather surrounds have horrible drivers. Kevin, this means you. I can make a surround that can accommodate 12" of linear one way excursion to play off of my granite former, one ton magnet, and 35" voice coil.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
i am trying to give you my children a framework within which to judge a driver's overall awesomeness


yes of course you can just model a driver but there are a lot of drivers and modeling is a pain in the ass


for example to know whether a car is good ultimately you need to test drive it. but test driving every car is impractical. you need to narrow it down to at least half a dozen first. how do you do that ? well you have metrics such as 0-60, quarter mile, slalom, MPG etc.


problem is with speakers you guys don't understand the significance of the most important parameters such as BL and MMS and my threads are intended to educate you about that

 

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I am surprised his "perfect" is so short sighted!

I want infinitely rigid massless piston

100% efficient

o% phase shift

0% distortion

0% IM

suspension to exactly damp the mass of the moving air

Requite no more space that what is needed to contain the air you want to move

Total decoupling from surround so it can be wall mounted

And so cheap as to be pocket change.


I am sure it can be modeled, but the supply of unobtanium is very limited as it degrades over time and was all used up in the manufacture of old British sports cars preventing us from finishing our restorations of them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek /forum/post/17007932


I am surprised his "perfect" is so short sighted!

I want infinitely rigid massless piston

100% efficient

o% phase shift

0% distortion

0% IM

suspension to exactly damp the mass of the moving air

Requite no more space that what is needed to contain the air you want to move

Total decoupling from surround so it can be wall mounted

And so cheap as to be pocket change.


I am sure it can be modeled, but the supply of unobtanium is very limited as it degrades over time and was all used up in the manufacture of old British sports cars preventing us from finishing our restorations of them.

i was talking about a regular driver that can be built with existing technology today somewhere in china.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasyachkin /forum/post/17008806


i was talking about a regular driver that can be built with existing technology today somewhere in china.

Oh. BIG difference. That takes all the sport out of it. "Everyone" has known what parameters they want. All you need do is read the AES circa 1950. The problem is materials. Always was, probably always will be. Pretty depressing to realize the very best driver today would look all to familiar to Mr's Rice and Kellogg.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek /forum/post/17008896


Oh. BIG difference. That takes all the sport out of it. "Everyone" has known what parameters they want. All you need do is read the AES circa 1950. The problem is materials. Always was, probably always will be. Pretty depressing to realize the very best driver today would look all to familiar to Mr's Rice and Kellogg.

"everyone" i am not so sure about. maybe 1% of DIYers know, AT BEST. trust me.


i made a Quiz so we will find out exactly how smart "everyone" is subwoofer wise.
 

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I can only encourage folks to do the basic research. Otherwise they are shooting in the dark and would have no valid understanding about the parameter tradeoffs. My "everyopne" is the 1% of whom you speak that are serious about speaker design from an engineering viewpoint, not a weekender who wants to use an established design and driver. The latter would not be making specifications but accepting that which is available. This is not a criticism of the second group, just pointing out there are more than one set of viewpoints and objectives.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasyachkin /forum/post/17009557


"everyone" i am not so sure about. maybe 1% of DIYers know, AT BEST. trust me.


i made a Quiz so we will find out exactly how smart "everyone" is subwoofer wise.

I can make a quiz and think I am correct. Doesn't mean I am because I probably am not. Unlike some people I don't wear the badge of "can't back my thoughts up" on my chest.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek /forum/post/17009651


I can only encourage folks to do the basic research. Otherwise they are shooting in the dark and would have no valid understanding about the parameter tradeoffs. My "everyopne" is the 1% of whom you speak that are serious about speaker design from an engineering viewpoint, not a weekender who wants to use an established design and driver. The latter would not be making specifications but accepting that which is available. This is not a criticism of the second group, just pointing out there are more than one set of viewpoints and objectives.

wow reading this stoned it seems so deep lol.


but then, still can't think of who these people are on here? aside from tom danley and kyle. no offense anybody.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgboy /forum/post/17007448


He's getting worse..

Not really, he has been completely out of touch on most his topic since he started on AVS.


What is amazing is that people are actually nice too the guy, I for one would never give him that until he starts to show RESPECT! He rips on successful driver builders and people who actually have successful companies constant but he has never built ONE driver, NOT one!! He has never owned or worked for any Audio company either.


Everyone should call out Vas and tell him that intelligence and respect comes from success not from babbling BS on Audio forums
His arrogance is very weird too, he has done nothing in the real world but yet he mocks those who have had good success. Really sad actually!


Do not mock until you have done it yourself. Walk a mile in their shoes so to speak.





btw, please quote me because VAS has me on ignore.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
you're plotting the wrong things Dan.


you are plotting stuff with respect to voltage. voltage is meaningless ! ! !


on a dry winter day you may have thousands of volts on you.


you need to plot with respect to POWER. of course your software doesnt do that leaving you essentially CRIPPLED in your logic.


by contrast i don't need to plot anything because i just know.
 

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Cool idea, tube amps and series filters for you now I see. Of course the sub amp would be a techron feild coil amp. I measure drivers with a constant current device.


After I posted the drawing up I realised I had misconfigured the suspension layout.


You may be all cracked out, but unraveling your mess sure gives me good ideas... LOL


Thanks!
 
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