AVS Forum banner

1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
649 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
TV: 2 Samsung LN64A650s


I noticed most of the settings posted for the 650 LCD model have Brightness Low (lower 40s) while the Contrast is high (minimal 93+). I understand that even with the same brand and model the settings will be different, since there are many variables that come into play for proper calibration. Still, Brightness in the lower 40s seem to be for dark rooms while Contrast over 93+ seems excessive. Or is it just me?



For me I watch most of the TV at night with lights on. I typically use 60 or 100 watt bulbs (I'll purchase bulbs closer to 6500k soon). When I calibrate the TVs in pitch dark setting Brightness is between 43 and 44 while the Contrast is between 66 and 69. When I have the lights on the Brightness is 48 while the Contrast is 85 on my last adjustment.


So my question is, shouldn't I calibrate my TVs with the lights on (in normal viewing conditions)?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,842 Posts
You should always calibrate your screen under your normal viewing conditions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
649 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I thought so but I just wanted to make sure. Thanks, Kilgore.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
649 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Thanks GeorgeAB. I just read the article several times.
It's clear that the room environment plays an important role for picture quality.


In the article where it explains how to set Brightness using DVE said:

Quote:
The TV's picture controls should be set for dark room viewing, the test pattern is then displayed on the screen while observing the level of illumination on the wall behind the display.

If this is the case then I should be calibrating the TV in a dark room to minimize conflicts such as surrounding objects that affect the picture's colors? The reason I'm asking these questions is that a Brightness of 43 is signficantly different than at 48.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
650 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmo0ve /forum/post/14332033


If this is the case then I should be calibrating the TV in a dark room to minimize conflicts such as surrounding objects that affect the picture's colors? The reason I'm asking these questions is that a Brightness of 43 is signficantly different than at 48.

Since I think that you mentioned that you have an LCD, have you tried using the backlight control to vary overall light output between darkened room viewing and viewing when the lights are on? i.e. calibrate in a darkened room and then increase the backlight control a bit when viewing under increased ambient light conditions.


hope this helps,



--tom
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
649 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Yes. The Backlight does vary between darkened and lightened rooms by 1 or 2 levels decreased. In normal viewing conditions I have it comfortably at 5 (out of 10 being max). Though, the Backlight doesn't seem to help with the Brightness. At least to me, the Brightness still seem low.


I use the Pluge patterns in DVE to set the Brightness. When I calibrate in pitch black I can decrease the Brightness bar to 43. The 4% below black bar is invisible while the %2 above black bar is just viewable. However, when I calibrate with the lights on (normal viewing conditions) the Brightness bar has to be increased in order for me to see the 2% just above black bar.


When I compare the two Brightness settings in normal viewing condition at 48 the blacks are black and I can see the details and shadows. At 43 the blacks will crush and it'll look unnatural.


This is just for Brightness. Contrast is a whole other issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,857 Posts
Room lighting in most cases interferes with the image on the screen, as illustrated by the NIST example in the article. Therefore, the ISF has lobbied for displays to offer "Day and Night" presets for picture settings. Day settings for brighter ambient lighting simply offers the best compromise for picture settings that must compete with room lighting. Optimal imaging necessitates absolute control of ambient lighting conditions.


Critical viewing should always be done in a darkened viewing environment if an uncontaminated picture is valued. Higher ambient lighting simply compromises the image. To not provide calibration settings for dark viewing conditions ignores these realities. I propose that neglecting a calibrated dark conditions viewing mode, even if seldom used, diminishes display performance and value. The only exception would be if the viewer never performs critical viewing in an optimum viewing environment. In such a case, I question the goal of calibrating such a display.


Is not the effort and expense devoted to calibration for the purpose of achieving the best picture quality the display is capable of? It has been my observation that, more often than not, viewers have not had these important issues sufficiently emphasized to them. Most TV viewers seem to instinctively realize that their TV looks better when viewed in a darkened room.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
649 Posts
Discussion Starter #9

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB /forum/post/14332734


I propose that neglecting a calibrated dark conditions viewing mode, even if seldom used, diminishes display performance and value. The only exception would be if the viewer never performs critical viewing in an optimum viewing environment. In such a case, I question the goal of calibrating such a display.

I probably fall in this category. I don't have an optimum viewing environment (lights are on instead of off) and I don't consider myself a (critical) videophile. I do, however, want my TVs to look good in the environment they're in.


I stopped short of saying "Optimal" because if that were to happen I'll need to reconstruct my room (which is ideal for HT), invest in top-end equiptment and hire an efficient ISF calibrator. I'm not at that point, yet.
I'm still at the stage where I love to adjust the settings myself and watch the TV in lit rooms (far from the ideal setting).


What's contradictory is that I've been adjusting the Grayscale in pitch black. I have little experience here but I think the colors are coming along nicely.



I don't mind having different presets for different viewing conditions. The only issue I see is that I love to use the Movie Mode's Warm settings. I can only have one setting per preset. The Standard preset isn't bad but the Warm picture modes are grayed out (only available in Movie preset).


BTW, thanks GeorgeAB and everyone else for taking the time helping me.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,421 Posts
I would not begin to debate that the room enviroment is not part of the viewing experience and as thus, has to be taken into account.


Obviously, just like a day and night setting, the brightness would be impacted by external factors in the room. However, as the original question was calibrating brightness AND CONTRAST, how could someone argue that setting the Contrast should be done with the lights either off or on, as neither will have an impact on the white clipping level of the set's electronics?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
649 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
I don't know. That's why I'm asking these questions.
Brightness seems less subjective when adjusting.


Contrast is a whole other issue for me. At least with the Samsung A650 the Contrast can go very high without noticable clipping. What's clear is that the colors, especially the red, gets washed out as the Contrast hits in the 90s. Though, most of the settings shown in the threads have their Contrast at 90 or above except mine. I'm the only one who will attempt numbers like 69 and 71.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,723 Posts
Greetings


We call that the blind leading the blind. Brighter images = better images so let's clip the heck out of them.


Crush some blacks along the way to get "better" black levels.


Regards
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,857 Posts

Quote:
how could someone argue that setting the Contrast should be done with the lights either off or on, as neither will have an impact on the white clipping level of the set's electronics?

Clipping white levels isn't the only consequence of elevated contrast settings. It can affect other characteristics of image quality and display performance linearity.


Contrast can also be too high if set the same for dark and light room conditions. Human perceptual factors and viewing comfort can also be affected by too bright of an image when viewing in a darkened room.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
649 Posts
Discussion Starter #14

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV /forum/post/14339808



We call that the blind leading the blind. Brighter images = better images so let's clip the heck out of them.


Crush some blacks along the way to get "better" black levels.

I feel better after reading the above. I guess I'm not far off after all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
649 Posts
Discussion Starter #15

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB /forum/post/14339883


Clipping white levels isn't the only consequence of elevated contrast settings. It can affect other characteristics of image quality and display performance linearity.


Contrast can also be too high if set the same for dark and light room conditions. Human perceptual factors and viewing comfort can also be affected by too bright of an image when viewing in a darkened room.

From what I gathered Brightness and Contrast are two of the more critical settings to adjust. I adjust them first, before all other settings. I'm fairly content with the Brightness setting.


With Contrast, however, I think I'm adjusting the levels more subjectively than I should. Now I have it at 82 and after viewing 4 movies I think I'm finally on the right track. In the movie Jumper for example, I could see the many tones of sand and variance in whites in some of the scenes. At 82 it might be still high for a well lit room but the colors were pretty good. Though, it may have been because I adjusted the Grayscale.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,723 Posts
Greetings


Setting black levels on digital sets is easy compared to contrast. There is just that one set about the blacker than black bar. Make it go away and you are essentially where you are supposed to be.


Contrast has you keeping track of three things and one of them is really subjective, but also very important.


Regards
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
649 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
I think that's where I'm getting caught up. I think I'll feel much better in the end, at least for my effort, if I had a more objective way to set the Contrast. At least with Brightness I'm going about it correctly.


In audio, when we are listening critically there comes a point where we'll hit listening fatigue. So it is strongly advised to test for 15 minutes at a time max then rest. It seems that when we use the eye to calibrate a TV that same principle of doing it in short intervals applies. I say that because the longer I stare at the TV without taking breaks, my perception of what I see distorts. Do you find that too?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,421 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV /forum/post/14339808


Greetings


We call that the blind leading the blind. Brighter images = better images so let's clip the heck out of them.


Crush some blacks along the way to get "better" black levels.

Interesting as I see nothing in that post that recommends clipping the white to get better images. Perhaps you do calibrations with the room lights on - but for some reason I believe you prefer a darker room for calibration - and then adjust accordingly to fine tune to the viewing enviroment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB /forum/post/14339883


Clipping white levels isn't the only consequence of elevated contrast settings. It can affect other characteristics of image quality and display performance linearity.


Contrast can also be too high if set the same for dark and light room conditions. Human perceptual factors and viewing comfort can also be affected by too bright of an image when viewing in a darkened room.

Yes and if you set the contrast level properly so the set does not clip the whites, one can always turn down the contrast setting in a darkened room if the fl are too bright as to cause discomfort. So the set's clipping level will not vary regardless if no light is on in the room or if a 50,000 watt flood light is on in the room - of course seeing and adjusting that clipping level with the reflection of 50,000 watts off the screen might be a different thing.


The display's internal weaknesses are also there regardless of if the room lighting is off or on - so again, I am still wondering why one would recommend adjusting contrast with the room lights on - even if that is normal viewing for OP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmo0ve /forum/post/14339747


Brightness seems less subjective when adjusting.

It might just be my eyes, but I find it harder to see 0IRE and BTB on sets when room lighting is on - especially brighter - not to mention the glare. Thus I find that more critical, at least in my instance, to have the room darker.


As stated above, the white clips on a set whether room lights are on or not.


Maybe some people are "blind" and need glasses having better vision in lower or higher light. But as long as you get to the end result that is correct, the bottom line, whatever works for you to get there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,723 Posts
Greetings


All I can say is follow the threads. You've taken the statement completely out of context.


Calibrations are done based on lighting that people normally watch in. Makes sense.


Regards
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
649 Posts
Discussion Starter #20

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachComber /forum/post/14340736


It might just be my eyes, but I find it harder to see 0IRE and BTB on sets when room lighting is on - especially brighter - not to mention the glare. Thus I find that more critical, at least in my instance, to have the room darker.

I have lighting in my room but the environment itself is controlled and that helps.
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top