[Cooper0103]

Looking through some older threads I have come across a few people stating they like X speaker for music but would prefer X speaker for HT.


What is the deal with that? I've always assumed that if a speaker was great for music it would be great for HT....right? wrong? who knows? What would make a good music speaker perform less for HT use?

 

[filecat13]

You'll get a lot of debate, but I think great speakers are great speakers. Period.

 

[AcuraCL]

Quote:

Originally posted by filecat13 You'll get a lot of debate, but I think great speakers are great speakers. Period.

Double period.

 

[Cooper0103]

Well, that's what I think too....if a speaker can put up a great soundstage, realism, depth, and overall dynamics.....it should be able to do that for both music and HT use.


I can understand how a speaker can be "good" for HT use and on music can not perform as well...that is more logical that the opposite...I just wondered what others thought etc.

 

[Bondmanp]

In most cases, I would agree with your premise. There are one or two areas of speaker performance, however, that can make a speaker more or less HT-friendly.


First is dynamics. Generally, soundtrack reproduction can have more bombastic dynamics than music. While some music may require similar dynamic abilities of loudspeakers, many listeners are happy listening to music (e.g. acoustic Jazz) that does not present dynamic challenges to loudspeakers.


Second is overall level. While some HT enthusiasts strive for Dolby reference levels, not all music listeners listen at such high SPLs. Again, some loudspeakers may sound great at lower levels, but don't hold up well when pushed hard.


Third is Soundstage and Imaging. While a dedicated HT system will usually rely on a digital processor to place film sounds in their proper places, 2-channel music systems rely on the electronics and the speakers to provide a sense of space and performer location. So, a speaker with poor imaging or soundstage abilities might still work well in a 5.1 or 7.1 HT system.


Fourth is bass extension and output. In addition to dynamics and overall level, a speaker system for a HT requires extended bass capabilities that are both deep and loud. Sound effects will usually place more demands on a HT system than will most music. If the HT system uses a subwoofer for the bottom few octaves of all channels, the mains will do well even if they don't have much deep bass extension or output. Without a subwoofer, they need more bass extension and output than even most full range loudspeakers offer.


Fifth is the practical aspects. For example, while large, two-piece systems like Pipedreams might be great speakers, placing 5 or more of them in a HT room might not be practical or esthetically desireable.


So, although many speakers that are considered good music reproducers would make good HT speakers, not all of them do. Conversely. speakers that offer the characteristics that make for good HT may lack the characteristics needed for satisfying music reproduction. If you need to combine a HT system and your primary audio system, there are some speakers and electronics that will do both well. I am in this situation, and feel that I've found speakers (by Vandersteen) that do both well.

 

[cschang]

Quote:

First is dynamics. Generally, soundtrack reproduction can have more bombastic dynamics than music. While some music may require similar dynamic abilities of loudspeakers, many listeners are happy listening to music (e.g. acoustic Jazz) that does not present dynamic challenges to loudspeakers.

While I do not disagree with this, I would like to add that eventhough the HT soundtracks may be more bombastic, they do not demand the detail that music does.


Also, I think a lot of the bombastic pieces are off loaded onto the subwoofer. A good musical speaker should be able to handle HT duties above that frequency range.

 

[programmergeek]

I agree a good speaker shoud produce what is on the cd or dvd and it should not add or subtract anything. Some speakers are better for HT because they handle bass better but a good set of speakers shoud do good for both music and HT. less expensive speakers tend to be eq to HT or music because sacrofices are made or they are catered to a more bright sound because that is what people like.

 

[Alimental]

Many "high-end" speakers can't do bass or can't do dynamics or both. First order crossover designs generally get harsh and bright at high volumes. Some speakers that sound "detailed* with music sound "harsh" with louder material (I heard a Thiel demo that was *awful* with a movie, the speakers were clearly distorting). Many high-end speakers have poorly matched centers or rears. Many don't blend well with a subwoofer or cost too much *despite* not having quite enough bass to skip a subwoofer. I generally say that a speaker that can properly reproduce *any* kind of music will likely be good at theater as long as you can get a matched center/rear.

 

[tubeguy44]

in addition to what has been posted already....


some great two channel speakers that have very wide dispersion patterns can actually detract from the HT performance because the soundtrack is designed to be played back in 5.1 or 7.1......


the wide dispersion from the front speakers can interfere with the surround sound from the side and rear speakers.....

 

[Morbius]

Quote:

Originally posted by cschang While I do not disagree with this, I would like to add that eventhough the HT soundtracks may be more bombastic, they do not demand the detail that music does. Also, I think a lot of the bombastic pieces are off loaded onto the subwoofer. I good musical speaker should be able to handle HT duties above that frequency range.

cschang,


Don't forget - the "attack", i.e. the short term transient of an HT explosion is handled by

the mains. The subwoofer gets the low frequency part - but the onset of the bombastic

piece is above the frequency spectrum of the sub - and is in the spectrum of the mains.


Therefore, the mains used for HT application have to be able to handle the bombastic

HT sounds . There are different characteristics to the sound of musical reproduction

vis-a-vis the soundtracks reproduced by HT applications. Therefore, the strengths and

weakness of speakers are stressed in different ways by the two applications.


The "ideal" speaker would handle all aspects of sound reproduction with equal agility -

but the "ideal" speaker doesn't exist [ though some come close ].

 

[JorgeLopez11]

Quote:

quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by filecat13 You'll get a lot of debate, but I think great speakers are great speakers. Period. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Double period.

Triple period


Richard Hardesty has written one of the best articles I've read about speakers for music and/or HT performances. The subject is thoroughly explained in technical terms in the issue number two of the audioperfectionist journal.


From his point of view (which I share), there's no reason why some speakers would be better for music while others excel in multichannel environments.


A good speaker can do a really good job regardless of the situation as long as certain technical requirements are fulfilled. Hardesty goes into details, so I recommend you to read the articles.


BTW, one of the brands Hardesty mention in his journal is precisely Vandersteens. Unfortunately, I haven't auditioned any Vandersteen yet

 

[AcuraCL]

Quote:

Originally posted by JorgeLopez11 Triple period ... BTW, one of the brands Hardesty mention in his journal is precisely Vandersteens. Unfortunately, I haven't auditioned any Vandersteen yet

They were my second favorites after the Dynaudios I bought.


I just didn't think I would like (long term) their bipolar nature.

 

[filecat13]

I've been bipolar most of my life. Is that why no one sticks with me?


On a serious note, I haven't read anything here that changes my mind. What I have read is a lot of justification or rationalization for very nice speakers that can handle one task well but not another. In my world that would preclude such speakers from "great" status, though they certainly could be very good at a given task.


We haven't even talked about the impact of the listening environment on whether a speaker can be "musical" or "impactful" or "bright" or image properly or whatever.


In the end, of course, it's personal preference.

 

[cjsparky]

Great speakers are great speakers agreed...


but...


Music is should be recorded for accuracy...


HT is often not based in accuracy...


i.e. how many mixers in hollywood actually KNOW what a mortar round sounds like on impact...


Hollywood can tend to "cook" the sound a bit on the higher end for a more dramatic feel. Different qualities in a speaker can overemphasize this, while still being outstanding music speakers.


Christian

 

[tpigeon2003]

Quote:

Originally posted by AcuraCL They were my second favorites after the Dynaudios I bought. I just didn't think I would like (long term) their bipolar nature.

Vandersteens are Monopoles.

 

[AcuraCL]

Quote:

Originally posted by tpigeon2003 Vandersteens are Monopoles.

Hmmm. I could have sworn that the 3Cs I listened to, about 7-8 years ago, had an open-cabinet design at the top, yielding a bipolar effect. I can't find info on the web site.


Anyone else remember the 3C?

 

[Bigus]

Vandersteen uses something that resembles either an aperiodic vent, a well damped transmission line, or something else depending on your point of view. It does not produce a dipolar radiation field.

 

[Q of BanditZ]

I was under the idea that music is more difficult to handle. You take care of the music, the HT takes care of itself.


But yes, a good speaker is a good speaker is a good speaker.

 

[filecat13]

The tendency is to think that a great speaker that can handle music can also handle HT. A variation is that a great HT speaker can't necessarily handle music. Implicit in this is the idea that music is somehow more demanding of some quality that HT does not have.


This idea is full of baloney.


You might convince me that on average music is recorded, mixed, and encoded to higher quality than a movie soundtrack, but you'd have to work pretty hard to do it. For every effort made in that direction, we likely could find a movie soundtrack that is better than the average music recording.


In fact, I have a few thousand CDs and several hundred movies. Off the top of my head I can think of 279 CDs that do not sound as good as the worst sounding of the movie soundtracks. I know this because I have a special shelf for CDs whose sound sucks, and this shelf has some fairly well known CDs on it, not just cutouts from the bargain bin.


What I'm trying to say is that it's unreasonable to identify sound quality by genre: music=good; movies=not as good. Every piece of media must be judged on its own. Otherwise you limit your choices through ignorance, as I did when I thought setting up a separate music, stereo only room would make a big difference.

 

[tpigeon2003]

Movies are worse because they use DD and DTS compression. Listen to a movie soundtrack on the DVD, then listen to it on a CD and then tell me which is better. If you can't tell me, then something is wrong with your system, whether it is your equipment or speakers or both. The fact that lossy compression is used on DVD makes CD a better medium to test your speakers.


Besides the music, there is no frame of reference to movies as all the sound effects are not real. Everything from explosions to footsteps to eating is all made up in the studio. Music, on the other hand, is built on harmonic structure which makes it a much more accurate tool to determine how good your speakers are.


As far as the Vandersteen 3C being bipolar, I have never heard that speaker, but I highly doubt it is because Vandersteen started solely making time and phase correct speakers in the early to mid eighties and having a bipolar speaker is a no no if you want time and phase accuracy.


As said earlier in the thread, there are instances where a good speaker for music may not necessarily provide you with sufficient enjoyment in movies as they may not be able to play loud enough for you without distorting.