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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My wife and I are still a bit apprehensive going with the 7200 after our first viewing (not optimally set up) because we both saw rainbows. So, if we decide to go with a different PJ, what would be the recommended alternative(s)?


It's got to display on a 16:9 110" diag screen, likely the Firehawk. Good blacks, clear detailed picture (no haze, no screen door), with some 3D depth and accurate colors (and I hope quiet). Street price of about $9K or less. Need to mount on ceiling and minimal maintenance means no CRT's.


- PLV-70? (some say screen door, only OK blacks, needs filters,...)

- Sony HS10? (cheap enough to do an upgrade in 12 months)

- JVC SX21 (won't work as the ceiling slopes at 15.5')

- NEC 1000 (many say much less rainbows and better blacks, but would it work with a 110" diag screen?)

- other?


This is really getting to be depressing. I was so counting on the 7200 that my HD RPTV is already sold. I really wanted something by Christmas over a 2 week vacation.


I wish I could wait until March but I can't,

dagger
 

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Go for a Maxx 1400 (JVC SX21). Probaby will have to wait until late January or early Feb. I know of at least one dealer who would be happy to lend you a projector until delivery of your purchase.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by mark haflich
Go for a Maxx 1400 (JVC SX21). Probaby will have to wait until late January or early Feb. I know of at least one dealer who would be happy to lend you a projector until delivery of your purchase.
Also you might want to look at Dwin I saw less rainbows on the Dwin compared to the 7200. I haven't seen the S2 Marantz yet but I didn't see rainbows on the S1 during my limited viewing experience. You might also want to wait for the Yamaha to check it out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
mark - that would be a great dealer! I'm very interested in LCoS, but the current throw's on the JVC/MAXX can't do 14.5' @ the lens (I have pitched walls which prevent the projector going further back without shifting to the side 10"or so). I see there is a short throw option (usually more expensive), but it is fixed at 1:1 which means 8' for my 96" screen. I guess I could do this but not sure about noise/light leakage. And what if there is further delays? That's why I'm even considering a cheaper LCD to keep no longer than a year, but is there one good enough (blacks, screen door)? If you'd like to PM me on your reference I thank you in advance.


Brad - actually the Yamaha does look promising if the Japan reviews are accurate. But will it be less rainbows - too early to tell until we have some quality comparison reviews locally.


I haven't ruled out the 7200 totally yet. It was just such high expectations and that's always a formula for burst bubbles. I know the questions I have posed form a dilemma, which by definition may not have a clear/correct answer, but I look to this forum to help guide my decision making process. (and yes I wish I could see them all in same HT but that will never happen).


Cheers,

dagger
 

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I'm not sure if it's only me, but I think that there's a difference between seeing rainbows in an audition of a projector and being "rainbow sensitive". I can see rainbows at first when starting up a movie, but believe it or not, it goes away. My brain shuts it out very fast and I enjoy the movie. I would say sensitive is if you experience headaches after veiwing. Don't give up the 7200 unless you actually experience discomfort while viewing a film. I've got the ls 110, and would definately buy dlp again regardless of rainbows.
 

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Tino,


I agree with what you wrote. I just saw the 7200 today at abigpicture's place and initially saw a few rainbows, but later on in the viewing I sort of stopped seeing them. In fact, I saw fewer rainbows than I expected to see overall.


DaggerNC, I also had high expectations for the 7200 from all of the hype it generated online. It took me about an hour to get beyond the hype and to realize that no PJ is going to be perfect. Once I got to that point I was fairly impressed with the 7200. Perhaps you could go back and see it again, now that you've gotten expectations out of the way, and see what you think (and to also evaluate the rainbows again).


Just some thoughts...
 

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Like Scott & Tino, my brain seems to have stopped processing rainbows (from my LP530 which doesn't even have the high speed wheel).


FWIW, I just don't see them any longer - just movies...
 

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Mark, I saw it at abigpicture's HT in Northern Virginia. I have not had good luck seeing these kinds of toys in the Baltimore area, so I usually just make the 60-minute drive south and am happy to do it (heck, I'll drive anywhere for a good day of HT equipment observation!). There is one HT chain in the Balt. area that has nicer HT stuff, but I have not had good experiences there, so I generally avoid the place.
 

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dagger,


Even though I've argued elsewhere about how the MAXX 1400 is advertised, I think that the SX21 (and thus the 1400) were awesome at CEDIA. I'm not sure about the cost, but there is talk of a fixed lens with a throw ratio of 1:1. If you could do that either by putting it down by the floor or somehow fit it in your room, that might be a good way to go. It would be nice if the 1:1 ratio lens where added as a standard model without much price difference instead of as an add-on lens, but I really have no idea how they are going to do it. I'm guessing that the 1:1 option lens is mostly meant to appeal to the business crowd, but you might find it useful. Also, getting an anamorphic lens that stretches the image horizontally instead of squishing it vertically can change the throw ratio. I think you should at least take a look at this projector, even if you have to go to CES to do it. You might be so impressed that you will figure out a way to wait for it.


One way to do that would be to buy something like the Panasonic AE300 for under $2k to hold you over until you get what you want and then sell it for maybe $1500 or so. I had one for 3 weeks just for fun and it was very impressive. I still prefer my M20x for my 116" wide screen, but the AE300 should be good enough to hold just about any of us over for a couple of months if we are waiting for something we really want. People I showed it to couldn't believe the performance for the price and at one of our shootouts it was deemed the price/performance leader. BTW: The AE300 is the only LCD with a special smoothscreen technology that basically eliminates screendoor. So, us anti-screendoor people can be pretty happy with it.


Hope you figure out something you will be happy with.


--Darin
 

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Heh Darin,

I was also thinking about recommending the ae300 as a temporary solution before I read your post. That's crazy talk for the >5K forum, eh? At the very least it is unlikely that daggerNC will have built-up high expectations of a sub-$2K machine! I say go for it. It would be a waste to spend all of your holiday vacation without any pj, and this one is very very nice for the price.


Ooh, and congrats on becoming a "Special" member, Darin! :D


Mike U.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by mulveling
Heh Darin,

I was also thinking about recommending the ae300 as a temporary solution before I read your post. That's crazy talk for the >5K forum, eh? At the very least it is unlikely that daggerNC will have built-up high expectations of a sub-$2K machine! I say go for it. It would be a waste to spend all of your holiday vacation without any pj, and this one is very very nice for the price.
The only problem here is that I don't know if it will be available in the US until after Christmas. However, as a short term solution the 3 year warranty shouldn't matter (I don't think they are transferable), so buying from a Japanese dealer wouldn't seem like a problem. One of them is a forum sponsor, so I think I'm allowed to say that.


BTW dagger: I showed the AE300 on my 116" wide screen to a couple of guys from work that generally know RPTV prices and asked them if they would have been surprised if I had said the projector cost $5k. They said it wouldn't have surprised them one bit from looking at the image. One of them was a little bummed about having to go back home and watch his 43" HD set.

Quote:
Originally posted by mulveling
Ooh, and congrats on becoming a "Special" member, Darin! :D
Oh ****! I was thinking of going cold turkey when I hit 950, but I just can't help myself :) It's actually kind of embarrasing. Maybe there is some support group for this (and not this one).


--Darin
 

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I've got to say it. I can't help myself.

PLV-70. :) But you knew that already.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Dawn - I was wondering just this morning if you would jump in here. Out of curiosity, would you consider the HS10 if you had to make a purchase decision today? How about if you needed to buy something March 1 '03? I also read the review on the PLV70 from the Secrets site - how much tweaking/filtering/defocusing etc did you have to do to get it to look as good as you required (did you ISF-it?)?


Darin and Mike - I had seen a few posts on the AE300. It would even be a more cost effective interim solution. My concern was that if I give up too much in blacks, or too much haze, or too little color saturation by going too cheap of a solution then I will not enjoy viewing even with a temp system. I don't know of anybody with an AE300 that I could demo in the Triangle area.


Thanx,

dagger
 

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No, I wouldn't consider the HS10 for several reasons, and this was based upon the fact that whatever we got now, we wouldn't be upgrading for 5 years (if that were to even happen). The first is that there is no MLA on the HS10. This is significant, and my husband has now had the chance to see LCD with and without it. He didn't like it without the MLA. Second, the brightness is only 1200 lumens. I can't tell you how much I enjoy the brightness of this projector. There is a difference, as Mr. Wigggles has pointed out, between "filmlike" and "lifelike". We, happily, have found the projector that meets what we desire, and that is "lifelike". No way am I going backward in lumens. Third, the advertised contrast on the HS10 is not as good as the Sanyo's. I've read here that Sony has a history of not getting very close to their advertised CR, and that Sanyo has been much closer. Well, the Sanyo is advertised as 900:1, and its real-life CR is better than the theater. Sure, when one sticks a hand up into the light path, one can tell the black isn't quite black. But it is black enough for us, and I haven't seen a blue or green cast to black in films, even when I have looked for it. Black is really black when there is white or lighter colors in the shot. Black is more gray when the screen is completely black. That can probably be helped with the Firehawk, with room treatment (we have white walls), and with the SMART filters and tweaking. We probably could even adjust a few settings to make it better. But what I want to say is that it seems just fine for the average person, without tweaking. The contrast ratio is much better with this LCD than any other. This is the finest LCD being made at this moment, from all that I've read. You should do yourself a favor and try to get a demo of this in a good setup. At least that way you'll know why you didn't get it.


Some mention should be made of an artifact that makes some people nuts. I have recognized this upon the teachings of the people on this forum. (Thanks, guys. :) ) It is a graininess to the sky, or fog, when there is a lot of it in a background, and the camera is panning. It IS possible to refocus some more to get rid of it, but if you HATE this artifact, and have extremely good vision, then this won't be your projector. This doesn't bother me, and frankly, I've gone through many films without seeing it at all. (Bug's Life is one.) I don't see it at all in white objects in the film, so its occurrence is very, very infrequent. Others have seen this effect more definitely than have I. It may be that I'm using plastic as a screen. I don't know. The image is bright, sharp, clear, vibrant, and totally wonderful. It's a lot less money than $9,000, too, and that money can be put toward something else very nice in your theater. I'm curious about the JVC SX21N, but the contrast ratio doesn't seem to be as good as my unit! That is surprising to me, and I'm curious as to how it will work out. I think one needs to set a budget, then see the best units at that price range of each technology. Decide what you need the MOST and what your "if I have to watch that on my screen, I won't watch it" buggaboo is. Mine was temporal dithering and mosquito noise. I was ready to give up FP altogether when I saw those artifacts. Some people feel that way about the graininess I talked about. (But the graininess is there only in the panning shots of light, solid backgrounds.)


I'd also say, read the owners' threads heavily. You'll get a feel of what people's reactions are to their own units. I also looked at the fact that there were people who owned a projector I saw, and liked, and they sold that one to buy the PLV-70/20HD. I also read the reviews. For the most part, owners have been thrilled with the 70/20, and many of us, but not all, are first-time owners.


One more thing: lens shift. I use this feature heavily as we switch back and forth between aspect ratios. We keep a constant height, and move the drapes on the sides for the width adjustment. I thought at first that we would move our skirting up and down, but we don't. We use zoom and lens shift, and it is great that everything is controlled by the remote.


Good luck!
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by daggerNC
Darin and Mike - I had seen a few posts on the AE300. It would even be a more cost effective interim solution. My concern was that if I give up too much in blacks, or too much haze, or too little color saturation by going too cheap of a solution then I will not enjoy viewing even with a temp system. I don't know of anybody with an AE300 that I could demo in the Triangle area.
Dagger,


I measured the contrast ratio at about 650:1 with ColorFacts on the AE300. The SX21 is claimed to be 800:1. I can't tell you if you would be happy with that contrast ratio for a while.


If by 'haze' you mean the grey that seems to mix with the colors on LCDs, then you won't see that on the AE300, because it basically doesn't have any screendoor. By that I mean that if you want to create something that looks anything like screendoor from 2 feet from the screen, you either have to use binoculars to focus or have 2 people. I'm not sure how they make the image smooth even after testing for a while, but it is incredible how well it works. The colors are great, but I don't think they would quite be up to the SX21. LCDs in general are known for nice colors (as long as there isn't so much screendoor to cause a gray haze). I see 2 downsides to the AE300. One is that even though the screendoor is gone their is an artifact during vertical movement sometimes that looks like scanlines. Fortunately the smart people here have figured out a way to get into the service menu and reduce them significantly. When I had the machine we were looking for these and noticing them every once in a while, so if it has improved as much as people have said I wouldn't consider it a big problem.


The biggest problem that I see with the AE300 is basically true with all LCDs and Dawn mentioned it. Some call it "Fixed Pattern Noise" and it is the main reason that I sold the AE300. On my 116" wide Hi-Power screen I could tell that the image was digital during panning with sky scenes, just like I can tell with a movie that has a lot of MPEG2 artifacts on a DLP. Some have also called it "The Dirty Screen" effect, where the nice image has depth, but there is something that your eye notices at screen depth. However, I think it takes a big screen and bright setup to really notice this and refocusing on the AE300 doesn't help in that case. If I only had my 8' wide screen in my theater room and didn't use my display as my computer sometimes, I might have kept the AE300. On your size screen I think it would work well, but I doubt anybody has tried this projector on a screen that costs as much as it does (the firehawk).


I think you would be happy with it, but I can't guarantee it. If it were me and I wanted the SX21 and a projector over Christmas I would buy the AE300 now and then wait. Maybe something will show up at CES that will make you want to keep something like the AE300 a little longer and get an even better projector (I know that could go on forever, but sometimes there are things worth waiting for). I'm kind of doing the same thing. I'm going to CES to see everything and then I'll decide when to upgrade to something nicer than my M20x.


--Darin
 

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I recently purchased the SmartII system from Steve Smallcombe for my Sony VW10HT. I have had the Sony for 3 years and it is like a new projector after the Smart tweek!


Steve uses a Sony 11HT at home but just recently reviewed the Sanyo PLV-70:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...0-12-2002.html


The king of Smart really like the PVL-70 from Sanyo:D
 

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After my experience with Rainbow, I personally think that if you see rainbows now you will see them in the future and probably wont go away with time. For whatever reason the NEC seems to have less rainbows then others. Ericbee had the original Marantz and rarely saw them and now see them on the Marantz 2. Might have something to do with the higher contrast rates.


Anyway, unless you are loaded, this is an expensive toy, so be sure that you will enjoy it in the future. My advise would be to get the SX21 which I know is not workable with your ceiling. The other way to go would be with the NEC. Yes its 4x3 but until recently all digital projectors (except the Sony) where 4x3 and everyone lived with it. A 4x3 projector can work very well with a 16x9 screen. All of the Dilas including the old and new ones are all 4x3 and while we want the Dilas 16x9 chips to come out, no one is complaining about their picture quality. Yes you dont use the full potential of the panels when you use a 16x9 movie on the NEC, but I think you will be very happy with it anyway. If you are in a quest for the absolute best, you can always get an anamorphic lens and that wil in essence convert your NEC to a 16x9 projector.


Everyone has a different way to deal with rainbows, they drive me up the wall, some dont really care and others never see them.


I saw a RPTV HD-2 chip dlp and while it was only a prototype, I saw the rainbows. They annoyed me and it took away from the viewing experience.


If you can do something to your ceiling, I would get the JVC SX21, its an excellent projector. I just saw a demo and the picture is very nice.


***Marketing Alert***


Many people on this forum have no idea that we sell projectors, so I just wanted everyone to know that AVS carries NEC, JVC and Infocus products
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I wish I was loaded - I haven't had a raise in 2 years including that portion of my compensation that is based on unit performance (I'm in the telecom field). In fact, I can only afford what I'm doing because my old hobby of restoring '65 Mustangs ended with child #2 about 6 years ago. The slowly dwindling bank account that held the proceeds of my last Mustang is what's funding this (before my wife figures out what's going on and it should go into the kid's college fund :D ).


So, Dawn is highly recommending the PLV70 - thanx again Dawn and I'll do some more searching/reading of the threads on that unit. Now Daniel appears to be saying the NEC may work due to reduced rainbows, but I hear that at 110" diag it's pushing the limits. Daniel - doesn't avscience carry the Sanyo, or is it the 20D? If the Sony has significant screen door and/or poor contrast, then even at it's price I will probably pass. A wild card looks like the Pany AE300 as a temp solution if I don't go with the PLV70. Actually, anybody see both of these LCD pj's to list the advantages/disadvantages?


Thanx again,

dagger
 

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dagger NC, I have seen a demo of the Sanyo plv70 and own the ae300, but I'm really not going to be able to give you a fair comparison. The plv70 I saw was hooked up to a crappy non-progressive scan sanyo dvd player via a composite cable. Yep, you read right: that's composite, not component. Salespeople might think it's a good idea to give a demo of a projector with a bad source and then use the pitch "and just think that it'll look even better once you get it set up at home!", but that doesn't work on avs-ers. No sir. They'd have an easier time trying to sell me a 21" samtron tv hooked up wiith s-video. Ugh, I guess I got off track on my mini rant. Anyways, from what I saw the colors weren't as nearly vivid as the ae300 and there was slightly more screendoor on the plv70. For some reason it didn't look any brighter than the ae300. Also, the contrast didn't look any better, though composite may be to blame for all of this (except the screendoor, which wasn't an issue anyways IMO). I know Dawn had an experince where she accidentally watched her plv70 through composite and was wondering why it didn't look nearly as good as usual. So I guess I really don't have much of a point to make other than to share my experiences. Just remember that the new budget pjs can come up with an awfully nice image for the price, and that you really need to match a quality pj like the plv70 with a quality setup if you want to get your money's worth. I can say that for DVDs, I would easily take an ae300 with HTPC over the plv70 through composite.


Now I await a well-deserved grilling from Dawn for my idiotic comments :D


Mike U.
 
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