AVS Forum banner

121 - 140 of 189 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,911 Posts
No, I think I will be more than satisfied with this machine.

I have seen what Javs can do with these, but really I plan more on getting the Panasonic, an easier installation.

Also hate the Spiders, worst there is, I'd rather use my X-rites for a proper calibration.

I have my hopes on a newer Panny which might bring dynamic tone mapping, then it'll blow everything else out the water in that price range.

It would bring such an improvement to every projector, one can only hope!


No wrong in the 420/820, but I'd like just a tad bit more, maybe a better build quality too.

A real shame if they didn't update the 9000 with DTM if they were to announce newer players, people would rage.

I have the Oppo right now, but it does not really deliver with the X790R, maybe for REC.709, sure.


Why did you get rid of the Sony, you hopped on the 4K-wagon?
Still have the Sony sitting just in case the Epson ever needs to go get repaired. The reason for the switch was simply to get on to the 4K wagon, the Epson throws a very similar image on 1080P to the Sony, a bit more brightness available and slightly better blacks but it’s not until you feed it a good quality 4K HDR that separates these two machines, with 4K the Epson is a definite step up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,209 Posts
I have the cinegrey5d with the x790r and I’️m very happy with the screen. Some people say it’️s closer to 1.0 gain. I’️ve heard it’️s closer to 1.2-1.3. I find the screen very bright and holds up well with some light in the room. Screen works well with 3d too as long as you get the right glasses. I watch Jurassic park 3d the other night and it was really good.
The fabric has been measured to be 1.0, it's not an assumption:
https://www.accucalav.com/wp-content/uploads/accucal_front_projection_screen_report.pdf
Yeah I saw that article as well when researching a screen. I also saw other websites claiming the 1.2-1.3. I have no way of measuring it. All I know is at 110 inchs and 12 foot throw my x790r with the 5d is a very bright picture. Over the last 10 years or so I have upgraded tvs every 1 to 1.5 years. Most of these being flag ship tvs and the x790r with the 5d screen holds up to most of them so well. It’s not oled good but high end lcd good even plasma good to my eyes. It’s definitely one of the best Purchases I’ve made.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,919 Posts
Yeah I saw that article as well when researching a screen. I also saw other websites claiming the 1.2-1.3. I have no way of measuring it. All I know is at 110 inchs and 12 foot throw my x790r with the 5d is a very bright picture. Over the last 10 years or so I have upgraded tvs every 1 to 1.5 years. Most of these being flag ship tvs and the x790r with the 5d screen holds up to most of them so well. It’s not oled good but high end lcd good even plasma good to my eyes. It’s definitely one of the best Purchases I’ve made.
What's the throw on your setup? Or what screen size/format and distance?

When the image is dark/very dark, is there a sheen on the screen, like a glowing veil, similar to how black looks like on an IPS monitor?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,209 Posts
Yeah I saw that article as well when researching a screen. I also saw other websites claiming the 1.2-1.3. I have no way of measuring it. All I know is at 110 inchs and 12 foot throw my x790r with the 5d is a very bright picture. Over the last 10 years or so I have upgraded tvs every 1 to 1.5 years. Most of these being flag ship tvs and the x790r with the 5d screen holds up to most of them so well. It’️s not oled good but high end lcd good even plasma good to my eyes. It’️s definitely one of the best Purchases I’️ve made.
What's the throw on your setup? Or what screen size/format and distance?

When the image is dark/very dark, is there a sheen on the screen, like a glowing veil, similar to how black looks like on an IPS monitor?
I have 16:9 110 inches at 12 feet throw. I don’t see any sheen to the screen when dark or black. I don’t use the DI so on a full black scene or very dark scenes it’s not perfect black but still very good black levels. My x790 luckily does not suffer from bright corners so the black floor looks very uniform. On very bright scenes that are more of a solid colour I can see some sprinkles but it’s pretty rare and does not bother me. The 5d does help with light scatter and reflections. I’m not in a dedicated theatre room and the combo looks great.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,919 Posts
I have 16:9 110 inches at 12 feet throw. I don’t see any sheen to the screen when dark or black. I don’t use the DI so on a full black scene or very dark scenes it’s not perfect black but still very good black levels. My x790 luckily does not suffer from bright corners so the black floor looks very uniform. On very bright scenes that are more of a solid colour I can see some sprinkles but it’s pretty rare and does not bother me. The 5d does help with light scatter and reflections. I’m not in a dedicated theatre room and the combo looks great.
That's strange. On my setup which also has a 1.5x throw ratio (with the 3D), there is a massive hotspot in bright/white images. It's very milky in the center (dark image).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,209 Posts
I have 16:9 110 inches at 12 feet throw. I don’️t see any sheen to the screen when dark or black. I don’️t use the DI so on a full black scene or very dark scenes it’️s not perfect black but still very good black levels. My x790 luckily does not suffer from bright corners so the black floor looks very uniform. On very bright scenes that are more of a solid colour I can see some sprinkles but it’️s pretty rare and does not bother me. The 5d does help with light scatter and reflections. I’️m not in a dedicated theatre room and the combo looks great.
That's strange. On my setup which also has a 1.5x throw ratio (with the 3D), there is a massive hotspot in bright/white images. It's very milky in the center (dark image).
I have a bit of a hot spot. It looks a bit brighter and has that sparkle affect but It’s pretty minimal and I can’t see it at all most of the time. I have pretty much forgot it’s there. What Height Is your projector? My lens is probably 15-20inches below my screen. Here are some pictures, the blue screen you can see the bit of a brighter spot but it’s hard to see. Other picture is with iris fully open in high lamp and it looks uniform.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,919 Posts
I have a bit of a hot spot. It looks a bit brighter and has that sparkle affect but It’s pretty minimal and I can’t see it at all most of the time. I have pretty much forgot it’s there. What Height Is your projector? My lens is probably 15-20inches below my screen. Here are some pictures, the blue screen you can see the bit of a brighter spot but it’s hard to see. Other picture is with iris fully open in high lamp and it looks uniform.
It's a DLP so just above the top of the screen. Uniformity should be ~73%. That JVC probably has over 90%.
Pictures are not always the same as real life:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-screens/3094730-picking-screen-budget.html#post58659830
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,209 Posts
I have a bit of a hot spot. It looks a bit brighter and has that sparkle affect but It’️s pretty minimal and I can’️t see it at all most of the time. I have pretty much forgot it’️s there. What Height Is your projector? My lens is probably 15-20inches below my screen. Here are some pictures, the blue screen you can see the bit of a brighter spot but it’️s hard to see. Other picture is with iris fully open in high lamp and it looks uniform.
It's a DLP so just above the top of the screen. Uniformity should be ~73%. That JVC probably has over 90%.
Pictures are not always the same as real life:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-screens/3094730-picking-screen-budget.html#post58659830
Yeah I can see what you mean by huge hotspot that’s crazy. Mine looks nothing like your pictures.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,071 Posts
How come the manufacturers don't adjust their ratings?
It's a rather bad move to keep shouting around with false advertisement.
They make more sales making people think it's high gain.
The only decent high gain screen that I know of is the not available HP screen.

Everything else is 1.3 or less that doesn't exhibit too many side effects.

The Cinegrey 5D is 1.04 gain according to my own measurement technique, which is basically the same as 1x gain.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
232 Posts
Discussion Starter #130 (Edited)
I just received my JVC.

First impressions:

BIG, HEAVY, sweet!


Firing it up, I was first and mostly interested in seeing the black level performance of my room.

I turned everything off, everything you could imagine, put the picture mode to Cinema, 6500K.


Low/High lamp, tried both, tried clamping the iris down to the minimum, still there was light present in my masking area.

I just projected on my dark grey wall, no screen.


With some lights on I could not see the masking, it was like there was no light output from the projector at all.

I guess the ambient light was stronger than the projector light, hence why the masking could not be seen.


But that makes me question the black level reputation of these projectors.

Firstly, my room is far from optimal, but I can get it black, like, yeah, quite dark, you would not see the floor etc.

Being this dark, I can still see the JVC, I don't get the point of improving a room, or building a dedicated room when the limits already are reached in a room like mine.


How did I go about noticing this?

Well, when my room is being as dark as possible, I chose to project a black background and not blue (JVC menus), and the 'black' is like, a couple percent gray.

If I stand in front of the projector, blocking the light onto the wall, my shadow from my body is much darker and more black then the 'black' coming out of the JVC.


Am I doing something wrong?

I have no HDMI devices connected to it, just shooting the JVC menus onto my wall.


Secondly, there is also some sort of, not sure how to describe it, but - 'squeal' / 'buzz' / 'whine' each 10-15 seconds, gradually fading over 7-8 seconds, then repeats.

This is with everything turned off, no E-Shift, no nothing, pure bare bone.


I do have some lens shift, though, and some zoom, didn't try resetting the lens to check the default state.


Thanks a bunch for being helpful!

Edit: I tried all options for 'Clear Black', but nothing changed.


Also thinking, I have the JVC at a pretty long throw, should make blacks better than having it much closer to the projected surface.

Meaning, if I want to move it closer, my blacks will be even worse.


Brainstorming!

Maybe I need to play with the brightness setting? LOL!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,453 Posts
A JVC is not an OLED. If you think this is not that black, then imagine your dissappointment if you had got something like an Epson which has 5-10x lower contrast..

Is your iris on -0 setting? thats fully open if so, thats only going to be about 25-30k contrast at best. If you put the iris to -15 the black level will be much better closer to 120k, even more so if the auto iris is on and it closes completely during a fade to black.

As for your room, there is a couple things to consider, ANSI and Sequential contrast. ANSI is extremely dependant on your room conditions, it will destroy the picture if your room has reflective surfaces, the image will look totally washed out in a not ideal room. Sequential can pretty fairly be seen even in a totally white room so long as the only light source is the projector. But almost all content is some combination of both. You can only really get an idea of this by watching content.

JVC's have internal lens reflections, this will show up as brighter artefacts in the masking areas.

Make sure you projector is in the correct HDMI level mode Limited vs Full for eg, I am sure it is though. You just probably need to re-adjust your expectation on what black from a projector looks like. This is why the next level up of that projector exists by the way...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
232 Posts
Discussion Starter #132
A JVC is not an OLED. If you think this is not that black, then imagine your dissappointment if you had got something like an Epson which has 5-10x lower contrast..

Is your iris on -0 setting? thats fully open if so, thats only going to be about 25-30k contrast at best. If you put the iris to -15 the black level will be much better closer to 120k, even more so if the auto iris is on and it closes completely during a fade to black.

As for your room, there is a couple things to consider, ANSI and Sequential contrast. ANSI is extremely dependant on your room conditions, it will destroy the picture if your room has reflective surfaces, the image will look totally washed out in a not ideal room. Sequential can pretty fairly be seen even in a totally white room so long as the only light source is the projector. But almost all content is some combination of both. You can only really get an idea of this by watching content.

JVC's have internal lens reflections, this will show up as brighter artefacts in the masking areas.

Make sure you projector is in the correct HDMI level mode Limited vs Full for eg, I am sure it is though. You just probably need to re-adjust your expectation on what black from a projector looks like. This is why the next level up of that projector exists by the way...

I know they're not like an OLED, I did not expect that either, I don't see the point of going with a batcave when a living room just might do.

I tried -15 on iris, no real change in the black level, to be fair, only noticed a decrease in brightness on the brighter parts of the image.


I think the contrast and the black level of real content can be perceived as higher, with darker blacks, as it's mostly surrounded by brighter parts, put tricks on the eyes.

The masking is where the black level is at though, I did not see any artifacts, there was just the same amount of gray all over the masked areas.


I could not change any HDMI settings as the options were grayed out, as I did not have any HDMI cable or devices connected.

I could try hooking something up just to check the settings, I do hope that there's something there that might improve the blacks, though.


You don't think brightness have anything to do with this?

Does brightness only affect the projected 'active' image area, i.e. not the masking area?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,453 Posts
I know they're not like an OLED, I did not expect that either, I don't see the point of going with a batcave when a living room just might do.

I tried -15 on iris, no real change in the black level, to be fair, only noticed a decrease in brightness on the brighter parts of the image.


I think the contrast and the black level of real content can be perceived as higher, with darker blacks, as it's mostly surrounded by brighter parts, put tricks on the eyes.

The masking is where the black level is at though, I did not see any artifacts, there was just the same amount of gray all over the masked areas.


I could not change any HDMI settings as the options were grayed out, as I did not have any HDMI cable or devices connected.

I could try hooking something up just to check the settings, I do hope that there's something there that might improve the blacks, though.


You don't think brightness have anything to do with this?

Does brightness only affect the projected 'active' image area, i.e. not the masking area?
Push HIDE on the remote, thats the real black level on the projector regardless of the source or settings you use. I use that to check calibrations are correct and not raising the black floor, its a good tool to use.

If there is no input, and the brighrness is set on zero, there should not be any raised black level.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
232 Posts
Discussion Starter #134
Push HIDE on the remote, thats the real black level on the projector regardless of the source or settings you use. I use that to check calibrations are correct and not raising the black floor, its a good tool to use.

If there is no input, and the brighrness is set on zero, there should not be any raised black level.
Thanks man, I'll check tomorrow, time difference is a killer, 01:16 at night here.

Interesting on how you use HIDE to check if the calibration is correct or not.

HIDE is then affected by settings in my world, that's how I understand it, but you're saying it's not?


I'm 95% there, thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,453 Posts
Thanks man, I'll check tomorrow, time difference is a killer, 01:16 at night here.

Interesting on how you use HIDE to check if the calibration is correct or not.

HIDE is then affected by settings in my world, that's how I understand it, but you're saying it's not?

I'm 95% there, thanks!
HIDE is the projector cutting the video signal and just projecting its real black level ignoring settings. Its aim is obviously just to cut video feed in reality, but in getting the most of the black level in these projectors a trick is to balance your greyscale and brightness calibration by ensuring you dont raise black levels. I do this by raising brightness and comparing it with HIDE until there is a chage in the black level, then back off one click and leave it. I actually even do it to the point of having to stare directly into the lens the change can be so small to notice on a screen.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
232 Posts
Discussion Starter #136 (Edited)
HIDE is the projector cutting the video signal and just projecting its real black level ignoring settings. Its aim is obviously just to cut video feed in reality, but in getting the most of the black level in these projectors a trick is to balance your greyscale and brightness calibration by ensuring you dont raise black levels. I do this by raising brightness and comparing it with HIDE until there is a chage in the black level, then back off one click and leave it. I actually even do it to the point of having to stare directly into the lens the change can be so small to notice on a screen.
Perfect, thank you.

I'll come back tomorrow, reporting on my success.

I'll connect my Oppo and throw a disc in it, to see some content.


Really, the black level of the masking is quite hard to spot at 17 feet, where I sit, so the black level might just be damn good.

I'm picky though, I walk up close to see where these machines are at, I could not imagine myself sitting much closer, to be frank.


Brightness setting really have no play in black level?

It doesn't adjust as on a direct-view display?

It's at 0 now, could go minus just to see if black level gets better, it surely must get better, no?


Edit: I mean, I would be surprised if Brightness 0 would be perfectly calibrated out of the box.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,453 Posts
Brightness setting really have no play in black level?

It doesn't adjust as on a direct-view display?

It's at 0 now, could go minus just to see if black level gets better, it surely must get better, no?


Edit: I mean, I would be surprised if Brightness 0 would be perfectly calibrated out of the box.
You might need to read my post again in the morning :)

Brightness of course raises the black level if you use it past a certain point. but not until about +2 on these machines, at least, the last few I had here.

Going negative on brightness should not lower the black floor on the eshift machines, I've only heard of that happening on the new 4K ones (no display should actually do that, that would be a bug if they do it).

If anything, out of the box the JVC is crushing blacks a tad, which requires a positive brightness adjustment. Best to load up the AVS709 Black Clipping patterns to see this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
232 Posts
Discussion Starter #138
You might need to read my post again in the morning :)

Brightness of course raises the black level if you use it past a certain point. but not until about +2 on these machines, at least, the last few I had here.

Going negative on brightness should not lower the black floor on the eshift machines, I've only heard of that happening on the new 4K ones (no display should actually do that, that would be a bug if they do it).

If anything, out of the box the JVC is crushing blacks a tad, which requires a positive brightness adjustment. Best to load up the AVS709 Black Clipping patterns to see this.
Right along, at least this machine must outperform the Epson previously considered in this thread.

I should not worry, I'll throw some tests and see where it's at.

Still curious on how people do in batcaves, some people don't even have JVC's in there...

They must be mad!


Thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,453 Posts
Right along, at least this machine must outperform the Epson previously considered in this thread.

I should not worry, I'll throw some tests and see where it's at.

Still curious on how people do in batcaves, some people don't even have JVC's in there...

They must be mad!


Thanks!
No, because thats when ANSI shines, which you will see as soon as you watch pretty much anything.

When its dark in the room, take a flashlight, point it at your rear wall, do you see light bounce on your projector screen behind you? Yep! Then your room needs a LOT of work. If you treat your room really well, you will see very very little light bounce back onto your screen.

For eg, a shot like this, if you have bright walls, the light bounces around in your room and back onto the screen washing out the image. This is where ALR screens can help, or, by darkening your room properly:




Well this is probably the best example of how it damages the image. Courtesy of Projection Dream, this is the same room with and without treatments. My room actually is set up exactly like the one on the right with a velvet curtain system all round.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
232 Posts
Discussion Starter #140
No, because thats when ANSI shines, which you will see as soon as you watch pretty much anything.
Didn't want to quote your photos, left those out.

Maybe I'm not too familiar with the ANSI/SEQ contrast, maybe that's where I misunderstand.


However, my thinking is like this:

My masking areas are not totally black, more gray to me, and if my room were to reflect light on those areas making them gray, my wall would light up outside of that area too, yes?

Well it doesn't, the light is strictly coming from the projector, I don't see how any room treatment could improve on that.

The only improvement you could do is to turn the lamp off, in the projector.



I for one am glad I never purchased the newer NX-series.

Be it ANSI/SEQ, firstly I should probably not argue with you, you hands down got more experience, but I'm eager to get my point across.


In the case of the last pictures in your post, the white room obviously reflects back to the screen, killing contrast and raises black levels as the screen is illuminated, unintentionally.

But with the treatment in place, the room looks much like mine in terms of how dark it is, this is where I get my gray blacks, i.e. there is nothing to improve.


But if I were to project an ANSI pattern on my wall, I would surely benefit from treating my room, as there would be too much brightness going on, too much reflections.

Maybe my biggest concern should probably lie there, how content look and how low my ANSI contrast actually is.


It's the SEQ contrast that I'm raging on about here, I think.

The JVC will deliver with the ANSI, no sweat, it's my room that'll kill it.


SEQ could never be black with projectors, at least that's my guess.

They do it in Dolby Cinemas, with dual modulation?
 
121 - 140 of 189 Posts
Top