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SEQ could never be black with projectors, at least that's my guess.

They do it in Dolby Cinemas, with dual modulation?
Correct.

Wait until you watch a film though, with a decent room and a good fade to black, you will actually say to yourself, wow that's pretty good black.

Unless you are so used to OLED that projectors will be ruined for you.
 

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Discussion Starter #142
Correct.

Wait until you watch a film though, with a decent room and a good fade to black, you will actually say to yourself, wow that's pretty good black.

Unless you are so used to OLED that projectors will be ruined for you.

I honestly think this isn't an issue, like - at all.

I sit at 17'. I could not pick that brightness up at that distance, also with everything going on, on screen, I doubt that's where I'll have my focus.


I'll be more impressed with the size, colors and motion of the image, blacks will be secondary in my experience, but first pick in my judgement.

I'll get a better idea on this tomorrow when playing some content, cannot wait to get that wall moving!
 

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Discussion Starter #144 (Edited)
@Vitus4K isn't there a white ceiling in that room? It will probably light up when playing something.

Contrast loss depending on %APL:
https://projectiondream.com/en/contrast-projector-environment/
We were talking about sequential contrast, coming straight out of the projector.

The room, walls, ceiling got nothing to do with it.

Eventhough the projector is supposed to project blacks, the lamp is still on, there is visible light in the lens, this creates the small percentage of gray that I'm raging about.

It could possibly not turn off the lamp for obvious reasons, hence why there is an iris.


I've loaded some calibration files and unpacked a few discs, I'll have a go later tonight.

What fears me is that my wall is a much darker gray, a matte color, than the screen I'm looking to purchase.

This means my final blacks will be even worse on my screen, probably even much more so when the ANSI contrast comes into play when playing content.


I know you guys are much more about the ANSI than the SEQ, the SEQ is what would impress me in terms of performance.

I honestly thought it was going to be better, but hey, there's a lamp in there shooting out light, what do you expect?


I don't even dare to think about the competition.

You're one step ahead when talking about the white ceiling, I was more concerned about the overscan and my letterboxing going outside my screen, illuminating my wall.


EDIT: Maybe an ALR screen absorbs some light to a small degree, generating a lower black floor than without a screen, are there absorption capabilities in such screens?
 

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Discussion Starter #146
I read back to your earlier posts, but there should definitely be a very noticeable difference between iris 0 and iris -15 in terms of black level.

If you like your dark black level use the dynamic iris on one of the auto modes.


Thanks for the tip!

I could almost swear I saw no difference in (SEQ contrast) black level performance with the iris manually adjusted to -15.

The letterbox portion of my wall was still illuminated with the same amount of brightness, at least to my eyes.


Later today I will have calibration patterns and files put up, will definitely be able to tell black level differences then.

I shall connect my Oppo and see if the HDMI settings are correct as well.

Thanks!
 

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Yeah I know Javs was helping you but I will also say it will be important to make sure you decrease your brightness setting until your screen stops getting darker. 0 is usually already the correct setting. But it could be a click or 2 less.

At that point black in a video will be the same as the hide button black.
 

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Discussion Starter #148
Yeah I know Javs was helping you but I will also say it will be important to make sure you decrease your brightness setting until your screen stops getting darker. 0 is usually already the correct setting. But it could be a click or 2 less.

At that point black in a video will be the same as the hide button black.

All appreciated, thank you!
 

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Thanks for the tip!

I could almost swear I saw no difference in (SEQ contrast) black level performance with the iris manually adjusted to -15.

The letterbox portion of my wall was still illuminated with the same amount of brightness, at least to my eyes.


Later today I will have calibration patterns and files put up, will definitely be able to tell black level differences then.

I shall connect my Oppo and see if the HDMI settings are correct as well.

Thanks!

This is why I recommended you the JVC. I knew this would be your assessment ... projectors simply can’t do black/black. It can get pretty good, and the JVC is an example of that.

I actually think the 6050/5050 measures worse and if you’re a fanatic you can definitely tell a difference there... you wouldn’t be happy either. However, to be perfectly honest, the actual difference, while apparent isn’t like looking at an OLED and a projector ... they’re both projectors and neither can do full black. The JVC is better though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #150
This is why I recommended you the JVC. I knew this would be your assessment ... projectors simply can’t do black/black. It can get pretty good, and the JVC is an example of that.

I actually think the 6050/5050 measures worse and if you’re a fanatic you can definitely tell a difference there... you wouldn’t be happy either. However, to be perfectly honest, the actual difference, while apparent isn’t like looking at an OLED and a projector ... they’re both projectors and neither can do full black. The JVC is better though.

Yeah, knowing that I have one of the best blacks out of a projector feels good.

It's just a matter of realizing the performance, met with my expectations, and blend it together.
 

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Yeah, knowing that I have one of the best blacks out of a projector feels good.

It's just a matter of realizing the performance, met with my expectations, and blend it together.
As critical as you are on black levels, you should see an RS540 or RS640 in a good room.
 

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Discussion Starter #152 (Edited)
As critical as you are on black levels, you should see an RS540 or RS640 in a good room.

That's a part of why I find this hobby of mine rather interesting, you could always improve, there is always room for improvement.

As with an hobby, but video and audio is something really special.

I bought a Klipsch setup to go along with this, RP-8000F's, RP-504C, and dual SPL-120's.

It's just a living room, so no real reason to get anything better, I've treated the room on par with the spouse levels.


For better equipment I'd definitely need a better room, thinking - Arendal 1723 Tower THX, another tower as center, and Rythmik 15's.

That'd be something, but oh the room, I would have to move to another place!


You got a real cave?


For Arendal's, check these:

Movie Demo:

Music Demo:
 

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I think you mentioned ordering some screen samples, including some ALRs. They do provide an improvement, but it's best you judge for yourself. At that throw ratio there should not be any issues.
I don't know if I mentioned Hivilux, or if they deliver samples.
 

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That's a part of why I find this hobby of mine rather interesting, you could always improve, there is always room for improvement.

As with an hobby, but video and audio is something really special.

I bought a Klipsch setup to go along with this, RP-8000F's, RP-504C, and dual SPL-120's.

It's just a living room, so no real reason to get anything better, I've treated the room on par with the spouse levels.


For better equipment I'd definitely need a better room, thinking - Arendal 1723 Tower THX, another tower as center, and Rythmik 15's.

That'd be something, but oh the room, I would have to move to another place!


You got a real cave?


For Arendal's, check these:

Movie Demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqqeIl1MOn4

Music Demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29G6trmEXNc
Pretty good room. Front wall is screen, black velvet above and on the side and black grill cloth below the screen, Side walls, floor to ceiling black velvet. Back wall 80% covered with black velvet. Ceiling 75% covered with black velvet panels and black grill cloth. Floor is black also. Front wall is a baffle wall with angled wings, so that right and left mains are pointing toward main seat. Screen is AT, so when looking up front, you see nothing but image. No equipment led's lit in the room.
 

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I know you guys are much more about the ANSI than the SEQ, the SEQ is what would impress me in terms of performance.
Nope, if that was the case we would all own a DLP.
 

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Discussion Starter #157 (Edited)
@Javs and @Mike Garrett , you're the ones I believe have the most experience with similar JVC machines as mine, so here it comes:

Did some testing this evening, I came across a couple of issues that I'll split into parts below, easier for you to address if case you decide to dig in, see below:



1) Pixel adjustment: I think one could only adjust RED and BLUE, where I think GREEN is a solid, as it acts primarily also for luminance.

Issue: I could align RED and BLUE perfectly, but using the WHITE image pattern showed GREEN as 1 or 2 pixels off to the LEFT and ABOVE the white pattern.

Questions: GREEN cannot be adjusted? RED and BLUE should be adjusted to match the WHITE pattern, or the GREEN as shown slightly misaligned to the WHITE?



2) Panel uniformity: To my very surprise, once putting up a 100% window, covering all of the image chips, showing 100% WHITE, 100% CYAN, 100% BLACK, screen is no where near uniform.

Issue: Panel uniformity seems to be an issue, hard to spot with content, but shows easily with dark scenes and when the projector is handling HDMI-shaking, gray screens seem to show when shifting.

Issue: The image shifts in YELLOW when showing 100% WHITE, 100% CYAN, but with 100% BLACK, there is gray coming from the TOP/MID-RIGHT side of the thrown image, the YELLOW shifting comes from the very same place.

Questions: What's up here? Lamp not up to par? Is this a usual thing with these JVC's? Could the image chips be Monday's work?

I put screen samples in front of the area where the panel seems to be shifting, and no, just confirming my fear that there's something funny with the projector, the screen sample also shifts in the same color as my wall showed.

Nothing funny with my wall.



3) GREEN pixel 'frame': With calibration patterns, there is a 1 pixel of GREEN, framing the image on all sides, the inner most side, both TOP, BOTTOM, LEFT and RIGHT.

Issue: When showing an ANSI contrast pattern for example, there is a 1 pixel GREEN frame, framing all edges of the thrown image, on the inner sides, nothing in between the BLACK and WHITE parts.

Question: Was actually pretty excited when content was put up on screen, didn't care to look for this then, you think this is tied to the calibration patterns, or something else? Will have to re-check tomorrow.



Also, I tried Auto 1 and Auto 2 for the iris, it never seemed to adjust anything though, I think my thing is a manual adjusted iris, but cannot make a conclusion until a proper screen is in place.

With it put to 0, I am sure impressed with the brightness from my 18' throw, even with the lamp in low, put it to high and it brightens up just a bit more.

The biggest change here is whether the iris is set to -15 or 0, to be honest.


I could probably set to -15 on the iris, but the screen would have to work miracles, I think a few clicks south of 0 could do magic with the 3D or 5D.

0 if you want to go crazy.


Oh, and yeah, there definitely is a change with -15 and 0 on the iris when it comes to black level performance with content.

No change in the masking above and below the screen though, I think this change won't take place until I have a screen in place, at a closer distance to the projector than my front wall.

I think the light will have harder time traveling around and back to the wall, maybe now mostly the light hitting the letterbox areas are reflections coming of the projected surface.

Right now the projected surface is in the same depth level from the projector as the letterboxing, might be causing a part of the illuminated letterboxing I've been mentioning.

Could not answer this fully until a proper screen is in place.


And yes, I was very impressed with the black level... with content.


Thanks for all your help, very valuable and welcome!
 

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@Javs and @Mike Garrett , you're the ones I believe have the most experience with similar JVC machines as mine, so here it comes:

Did some testing this evening, I came across a couple of issues that I'll split into parts below, easier for you to address if case you decide to dig in, see below:



1) Pixel adjustment: I think one could only adjust RED and BLUE, where I think GREEN is a solid, as it acts primarily also for luminance.

Issue: I could align RED and BLUE perfectly, but using the WHITE image pattern showed GREEN as 1 or 2 pixels off to the LEFT and ABOVE the white pattern.

Questions: GREEN cannot be adjusted? RED and BLUE should be adjusted to match the WHITE pattern, or the GREEN as shown slightly misaligned to the WHITE?



2) Panel uniformity: To my very surprise, once putting up a 100% window, covering all of the image chips, showing 100% WHITE, 100% CYAN, 100% BLACK, screen is no where near uniform.

Issue: Panel uniformity seems to be an issue, hard to spot with content, but shows easily with dark scenes and when the projector is handling HDMI-shaking, gray screens seem to show when shifting.

Issue: The image shifts in YELLOW when showing 100% WHITE, 100% CYAN, but with 100% BLACK, there is gray coming from the TOP/MID-RIGHT side of the thrown image, the YELLOW shifting comes from the very same place.

Questions: What's up here? Lamp not up to par? Is this a usual thing with these JVC's? Could the image chips be Monday's work?

I put screen samples in front of the area where the panel seems to be shifting, and no, just confirming my fear that there's something funny with the projector, the screen sample also shifts in the same color as my wall showed.

Nothing funny with my wall.



3) GREEN pixel 'frame': With calibration patterns, there is a 1 pixel of GREEN, framing the image on all sides, the inner most side, both TOP, BOTTOM, LEFT and RIGHT.

Issue: When showing an ANSI contrast pattern for example, there is a 1 pixel GREEN frame, framing all edges of the thrown image, on the inner sides, nothing in between the BLACK and WHITE parts.

Question: Was actually pretty excited when content was put up on screen, didn't care to look for this then, you think this is tied to the calibration patterns, or something else? Will have to re-check tomorrow.



Also, I tried Auto 1 and Auto 2 for the iris, it never seemed to adjust anything though, I think my thing is a manual adjusted iris, but cannot make a conclusion until a proper screen is in place.

With it put to 0, I am sure impressed with the brightness from my 18' throw, even with the lamp in low, put it to high and it brightens up just a bit more.

The biggest change here is whether the iris is set to -15 or 0, to be honest.


I could probably set to -15 on the iris, but the screen would have to work miracles, I think a few clicks south of 0 could do magic with the 3D or 5D.

0 if you want to go crazy.


Oh, and yeah, there definitely is a change with -15 and 0 on the iris when it comes to black level performance with content.

No change in the masking above and below the screen though, I think this change won't take place until I have a screen in place, at a closer distance to the projector than my front wall.

I think the light will have harder time traveling around and back to the wall, maybe now mostly the light hitting the letterbox areas are reflections coming of the projected surface.

Right now the projected surface is in the same depth level from the projector as the letterboxing, might be causing a part of the illuminated letterboxing I've been mentioning.

Could not answer this fully until a proper screen is in place.


And yes, I was very impressed with the black level... with content.


Thanks for all your help, very valuable and welcome!
Do not have time to address everything, but the convergence works by adjusting the red and blue only. Green is fixed. Once you adjust the red to line up with the white lines and do the same with blue, the lines will be white from your seated distance. If you are expecting them to be perfect 2' away from the screen, you will never get there and you do not need to get there. Lines need to look white and sharp from your seat. Also blue being out does not show up when watching images.
 

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Discussion Starter #159
Do not have time to address everything, but the convergence works by adjusting the red and blue only. Green is fixed. Once you adjust the red to line up with the white lines and do the same with blue, the lines will be white from your seated distance. If you are expecting them to be perfect 2' away from the screen, you will never get there and you do not need to get there. Lines need to look white and sharp from your seat. Also blue being out does not show up when watching images.
The problem really is my GREEN, it's 2-3 pixels off horizontally to the LEFT, nothing wrong with the vertical axis.

Since it's fixed, it'll never really match up with the white lines, it's insanely visible on sharpness patterns and text in general.

To minimize the effects and drawbacks of this I need to adjust RED and BLUE to meet the GREEN, but then again nothing really lines up with the white pattern.


Kinda confusing.
 

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Discussion Starter #160
I seem to have issues including my MASKING settings inside a Lens Memory Setting, is this not possible with the X7900/X790R/RS540?

The only things that seem to be saved in Lens Memory is, Focus, Zoom and Shift.

Anyone able to tell for certain?
 
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