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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am upgrading my old Z2 to a Pan ax200u. I have a pretty well light controlled room but my goal is to allow in as much light as possible while getting a decent 'enough' image for TV and NFL.


My current throw is 11'6" to a 91" diag screen. If I reduce the throw to the minimum of 9' for the 91" inch diag screen I get a 1fc
increase over having the PJ at 11'6". A bump from 4fc to 5fc or as they indicate 10% to 12% "max room lighting"


I plan a n8 or so grey paint on my do-able killz 2 primed screen.


Follow up question, my current mounting location is against a back wall, the same back wall my seating area is at. Would it be considered acceptable or ridiculous to have the PJ on the ceiling at 9' away, so in the seating area you can look up and see it?


So do I move the PJ to gain that 1fc to a maybe-not-so-desirable mounting location?
 

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I'm getting 32 fL with the projector at 11' 6" and a 91" screen. That's a lot of light. Plenty for a gray screen with ambient light. When I switch the calculator from Video/Movies to Data I get 64 fL.


You are going from a very dim projector to the brightest theater projector around. Not only that, you are going to a Panasonic with smooth screen. I say leave the projector at 11' 6" and increase your screen to 110". You will still be getting 26 fL for video/movies and 53 fL for Data mode.


That should be plenty of light for a nice matte N8 neutral gray screen.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDGTX /forum/post/15412843


Hi,


I am asking a dumb question most likely. How are you getting these "FL" numbers ? Are you using a handheld light meter in front of the screen ?


Thanks.


John

No, I'm just going by the calculator over at Projector Central. The screen calculator displays them.

Foot Lamberts = Lumens / Screen Area (ft^2).


A better way to determine them would be to use the Lumen measurements from the review and the screen size you have in mind.
Projector Central Review
Projector Reviews
The bottom line is this is a very bright projector that could easily light up a 110" using Cinema 2 mode with the lights off. In the brighter modes it will handle ambient light for game playing and sports viewing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Tiddler, thanks for the input. I forgot to go and review my old projector at projectorcentral, it says 14fl, the Panny says 34fl. Easy choice. The z2 worked well with Misty Evening so a bit bright and N8, I think I am in!


The room the panny will be in has white acoustic ceiling and a semi high sheen off-white for all the walls. My girlfriend just said, "I don't care what you do to that room."


Her mistake. I will be posting a few extra threads in regards to colors and sound deadening materials. If you have any suggestions, let them fly.


Also, besides ProjectorPeople who can I buy a PJ from with trust? PP just turned my stomach sour with a call in from one of their reps.
 

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I'll attest to what Tiddler said about the AE200u


Virtually all the examples I personally have seen involving 90" or smaller screens and the AE100-200u series have ALL been on dark gray screens, albeit ones designed to maximize White levels. Some were also on 110"ers up to 124"ers. The latter ones were Light Fusion (mirror) screens w/Silver Fire "Dark Gray".


Due to the Panny's short throw / long throw lens its easy to avail oneself of the shortest throw possible.


.....and brook no mistake, WHICHEVER PJ/Screen combo you choose, having the shortest throw you possible can while still maintaining the size screen you desire will always be best.


And also, as Todd so effectively pointed out, the Panny's brightness potential can be mitigated to one's distinct advantage by correct calibration / use of Cinema Modes, and not detract one wit from image dynamism if the screen size is as small as the OP's.


I did make note that the OP was told to go "Bigger", and who would argue that I'm not an advocate of doing so whenever possible / practical?. But I also made note that the OP wanted to paint his original Doable that he has been using. Now among the "Doable" crowd, that's almost heresy. So beyond the fact he already has a screen (...and 'sized' Trim I'd bet...), I'd say, "Let him paint the thingee....!"


Otherwise he might just discover that even with the AX200u set to "Low Lamp" Cinema mode, and calibrated correctly, his ambient light performance, and his perceived Contrast will be better than he can imagine when watching "TV" . That might lead him to forgo any painting at all.


We don't want that!!!*



......but then again, that would allow him to keep the Doable, and start from scratch using the Wall....and thereby achieve a most spectacular 120" image


For a valid example of 122" of "Big" on a very light Gray with non-direct ambient light, look to the image below. It shows a "TV" show being shot onto a 107" x 60" surface by a Panny 1000u (1600 lumens) that has been "VE" calibrated (...but not set to a Cinema mode...) It is showing 1080i content. It's "Throw" is from 21' !!!! And there is still enough light coming off the screen that the "Flat Black Painted" ceiling directly above the screen is lit up, and the dark "flat red' tiles at the bottom still offer up a degree of "shine" .




Gosh guys......it's plain to see, there is almost limitless possibilities / potential available to Thresher with his degree of Luminosity available. But I feel his best route to take is to paint his screen with a corresponding Gray that will not effectively attenuate his Whites to a degree that he'll have to compensate by anything other than a ever so gentle Contrast / Gamma tweak.


Thresher, you'll lose more than you gain if you go to any darker a Gray than what is needed to help deepen your perceived Contrast by only a small degree. Let your Calibration / Image settings do the rest. The end result will be noticeably better Contrast in a "Dark Room" setting, and that will work to your favor all you need in ambient light conditions. You just do not want to degrade your "Dark Room" experience in the quest for Ambient Light performance. Have it both ways......it's more fulfilling.

*...but try the Panny out on the Raw Doable first, and take some reference shots for comparison after you paint. That would not only tell you what you did or did not gain from the exercise, it will also provide many on AVS's DIY Screens some valuable comparative data.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I really appreciate your time in posting for me. I learn immense amounts and I truly understand that our time is valuable.


The do-able is no longer raw, it has had killz 2 primed on it for the last year in wait for a new PJ. The z2 does alright off of it, but the z2 at 15,000 hours has almost no blue LCD left and it cant recreate white, purple, yellow, blue, etc. I had at one point used a 110" screen with ME in an ambient room and was happy with the z2. Sounds like the ax200u will blow me away considering we had 'good enough' performance under my current scenario.


Do you have a suggestion on what gray will not attenuate my whites but still allow the color depth I desire? Are we still talking an N8 or so?


I don't mind painting my white ceiling to a gray and I dont mind painting the walls a darker color, the world is my oyster.


I agree with you MM I do want to have the best performance in 'both' theater and ambient light. So is it acceptable for you guys to have a PJ on the ceiling roughly 2 feet in front of the main seeting area, instead of having the PJ over your head directly? This would gain 10 FL according to Projector Central.


My thought is to do this entire setup the best way I can. I have always had a trashy kind of setup that was still impressive but now I have ownership rights to the theater room!


Do I gain FL by darkening the ceiling or what exactly is the desired effect I am going for?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Is the DVD essentials DVD still something that can be used for calibration of a high def PJ? Otherwise I have to rely on the THX calibration because I do not know of a calibrator on my island.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thresher /forum/post/15416383


I really appreciate your time in posting for me. I learn immense amounts and I truly understand that our time is valuable.

"WE" agree.


Quote:
The do-able is no longer raw, it has had killz 2 primed on it for the last year in wait for a new PJ. The z2 does alright off of it, but the z2 at 15,000 hours has almost no blue LCD left and it cant recreate white, purple, yellow, blue, etc. I had at one point used a 110" screen with ME in an ambient room and was happy with the z2. Sounds like the ax200u will blow me away considering we had 'good enough' performance under my current scenario.

That it will indeed. The short throw / small screen size will render any difference between 1080p & 1080i insignificant. Only the improved Contrast offered by 1080p machines would/could spell a difference. That's not a consideration here though, so sticking with the Panny200's capabilities, it's own "calibrated" Native Contrast on "Low lamp" mode of 2500:1 is better than most can realize.

Quote:
Do you have a suggestion on what gray will not attenuate my whites but still allow the color depth I desire? Are we still talking an N8 or so?

If you go with a simple Gray, N8 or otherwise, you'll have to calibrate to accommodate the attenuation / color shifting that will occur. Even a Neutral Gray will still affect whites / colors....just to a lessor degree than a "less than neutral" Gray.


As I stated before, your Screen size it your biggest attribute. A N8 can be accommodated easily enough, but then again, an even lighter Gray will allow for more content to be seen in it's original state, not attenuated or accentuated via excessive but necessary calibration.


The ONLY way I can suggest a "darker Gray" is by your doing up a more advanced Mix such as Silver Fire Lite. Or a lighter "Black Widow". The latter is a good choice if you want "Advanced Reflective Mix" results in a "Simpler Reflective Mix".

Quote:
I don't mind painting my white ceiling to a gray and I don't mind painting the walls a darker color, the world is my oyster.

In Season, I hope.
A Dark Flat Gray Ceiling (Charcoal Gray is best) and a Dark Flat Color on the walls will do A LOT to improve your perceived Contrast in a dark room setting, and in the least help mitigate reflected ambient light in a "lit room" environment.

Quote:
I agree with you MM I do want to have the best performance in 'both' theater and ambient light. So is it acceptable for you guys to have a PJ on the ceiling roughly 2 feet in front of the main seeting area, instead of having the PJ over your head directly? This would gain 10 FL according to Projector Central.

Frankly, it's a toss up. The Panny is a quiet PJ, and if it's on Low Lamp...even quieter, so noise isn't an issue. From my small experience, a PJ mounted just 2' in front of a vertical line running off the top of your head will not be seen unless you look up. The Panny also does not leak light out the back so it will not illuminate the Ceiling behind it.


The choice is based upon these factors.
  • Running the PJ on Low Lamp (strongly suggested)
  • Mounting the PJ a minimum distance from the Ceiling.
  • Placement of the screen is as high as possible / practical


If you can answer yes to all the above, then Move It.

Quote:
My thought is to do this entire setup the best way I can.

Always best. Read my sig.

Quote:
I have always had a trashy kind of setup that was still impressive but now I have ownership rights to the theater room!

Heady feeling. that. And one I've had the pleasure of seeing help light up more than a few faces. Mediocre efforts can and do impress many who know not what is / can / should be done. Exemplary effort usually results in performance that goes beyond expectations.... certainly others....but most importantly your own.

Quote:
Do I gain FL by darkening the ceiling or what exactly is the desired effect I am going for?

Improved Contrast by reducing undesirable reflection, and in ambient light conditions, a darker skinned environment will work to make "on screen" black levels as well as colors seem to jump out. People usually say TV looks best in the dark. A disembodied image in a Black Room has nothing to which it must compete against.


Both examples work Hand in Glove to improve the viewing experience.

Quote:
Is the DVD essentials DVD still something that can be used for calibration of a high def PJ? Otherwise I have to rely on the THX calibration because I do not know of a calibrator on my island.

Any calibration that is done using a known Color/Gray as reference will do better than almost any "Eyeball" attempt. THX tools on DVDs are made to help people without external Calibration programs/tools to realize an improved viewing experience.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thresher /forum/post/15411622


I am upgrading my old Z2 to a Pan ax200u. I have a pretty well light controlled room but my goal is to allow in as much light as possible while getting a decent 'enough' image for TV and NFL.


My current throw is 11'6" to a 91" diag screen. If I reduce the throw to the minimum of 9' for the 91" inch diag screen I get a 1fc
increase over having the PJ at 11'6". A bump from 4fc to 5fc or as they indicate 10% to 12% "max room lighting"


I plan a n8 or so grey paint on my do-able killz 2 primed screen.


Follow up question, my current mounting location is against a back wall, the same back wall my seating area is at. Would it be considered acceptable or ridiculous to have the PJ on the ceiling at 9' away, so in the seating area you can look up and see it?


So do I move the PJ to gain that 1fc to a maybe-not-so-desirable mounting location?

Locating the projector closer may have the side benefit that you can come and go from the seats without getting an eye full of projected light. If It's still in the pathway, try and keep the bottom 80" or more above the floor for any tall people that may drop by.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Wow, so much great info.


I do think I will move the PJ forward as much as I can but I have to 'see' it in the location to determine if it will draw the eye. I want max FL so with no zoom at 91" @ 9' throw I am excited!


Here is my current setup, as you can see the room is a)a mess b)all concrete block painted off-white c) a blank pallette


I think for the most part all of my DIY Screen questions are answered, I will be moving to the HT Construction forum for some advice on color schemes for the room and sound deadning curtains or panels to handle the ridiculous echo created from the block.


I would like to make this room stylish and modern looking. The curtains and walls echo to the age of 1974 when this place was built. I am in Hawaii though



All ideas welcome on colors and cheaper products that will reduce echo and help control reflected light.

 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbgl /forum/post/15417754


try and keep the bottom 80" or more above the floor for any tall people that may drop by.

I have more than 80" space between, good advice as I don't think about anything taller than 5'9", haha. I am leaning harder towards the move closer, can't wait to have the PJ in hand and in some testing!


One question comes to mind, is there a disadvantage to an increase in keystone correction? If the PJ is closer by 1.5 feet than there will be an increase in keystone correction, right?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thresher /forum/post/15418197


I have more than 80" space between, good advice as I don't think about anything taller than 5'9", haha. I am leaning harder towards the move closer, can't wait to have the PJ in hand and in some testing!


One question comes to mind, is there a disadvantage to an increase in keystone correction? If the PJ is closer by 1.5 feet than there will be an increase in keystone correction, right?

Avoid keystone correction. The projector will have to scale the image if you use keystone, and scaling will reduce the picture quality. Mount the projector at the height you need to avoid using ANY keystone. Just warn any tall visitors if it needs to be a little bit lower so that they don't bang into it going for a cold one. While you are testing, don't move the projector while it's on, or while it is still warm. You can test the size with it on a table, and you can make measurements to figure how it will work hanging from the ceiling. My screen is similar size with the top edge of the picture about 78" above the floor. So I think you should lower yours a bit from what your picture shows. Just my preference of course.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thresher /forum/post/15418197


I have more than 80" space between, good advice as I don't think about anything taller than 5'9", haha. I am leaning harder towards the move closer, can't wait to have the PJ in hand and in some testing!


One question comes to mind, is there a disadvantage to an increase in keystone correction? If the PJ is closer by 1.5 feet than there will be an increase in keystone correction, right?

The Panny has lens shift. There should be no reason to do any keystone correction at all. The Z2 also has lens shift so you should be familiar with it's advantages.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler /forum/post/15418837


The Panny has lens shift. There should be no reason to do any keystone correction at all. The Z2 also has lens shift so you should be familiar with it's advantages.


Does it have horizontal shift too? That would be so cool!
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Oh I see what you are saying, you don't angle the PJ you simply lens shift down. Thanks, it is exactly what I did with my current one.


Now my only concern is ax200u bulb life and screen flicker. I think I am putting too many hours on the PJ and need to find another type of display device.
 
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