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That may be the case with titles that come with Dolby Vision enhancement layer, HDR10 version can be locked to 1000 nits to prevent image from looking to dim, but video stream has information beyond that that's accessible to DV because of dynamic metadata.

I generally agree that anything above 4000 nits can be safely clipped.
This is a possibility. Unfortunately we can't test for this as DV isn't supported. However, most if not all DV titles are mastered on the Dolby Vision monitor, which is 4,000nits, and I wonder if Dolby doesn't require to report 4,000nits in the HDR10 metadata in that case. It might be worth asking @Kris Deering if he has an answer on that point. I will try to see if any of the titles reporting higher than 1,000nits MaxCLL when MaxDL is 1,000 are DV titles.

Yes, but at that time I didn't know that mastering monitors always clip. Also IIRC you suggested to always clip at 4,000nits, which I still don't like. It's different to clip at the mastering monitor peak luminance vs to always clip at 4,000nits.
I don't think I ever asked to always clip at 4,000nits, given that I've implemented in the Vertex ages ago an algo to clip lower when the metadata allows us to clip lower. It's all about getting the most possible contrast. I might have suggested never resolving above 4,000nits for projectors, and I still believe in that, because I don't think it's ever desirable to try to fit 10,000nits when you only have 100nits to play with, although arguably the loss of contrast doing so is minimal vs clipping at 4,000. It is more significant vs clipping at 1,000nits.

I have also suggested that MadVR gives us an option to specify what is the most we want to show on our display, in any case. I still believe it would be a good option to have. You might want to show up to 10,000nits if one day mastering displays show up to 10,000nits, I doubt I'll ever want to do that if I have the choice. In any case, I'm looking forward to do an A/B compare with/without limiter, but to do this I need to get a version that works here :).

I have small suggestion: make .measurements files hidden by default.
Damn you! It's all your fault :)

Remeasuring should not be needed. Do you see "measured frame % nits, tone map to % nits" in the OSD, or "frame % nits, scene % nits, movie % nits"? The former means the measurement file was either not accepted at all, or not considered "complete". The latter means it was accepted as complete.
None of my completed measurements files is taken into account at the moment (only saying so others understand my feedback post earlier).

I wasn't the one asking for hidden files :)
Thanks for the correction, I was blaming the wrong person :) KoKlusz must be happy now, we have to show our hidden files permanently... I really hope we'll get an option to show/hide them by default. I hate having to show hidden files when I don't have to, and at least during testing I don't see another way to be sure of what I have.
 

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I would want the files to be stored with the source files or in a user selected folder (which would be on a network share, not the playback machine). I definitely do not want them in the madvr folder (as this is typically managed by Jriver anyway as it installs madvr itself). I don't care if they are hidden or not. I would also want to schedule this as an offline job separate to playback.
 

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None of my completed measurements files is taken into account at the moment (only saying so others understand my feedback post earlier).
FWIW, I believe they are still taken into account, but they're considered "incomplete", for some reason, because of which only the scene-by-scene peak information is used, but not the overall movie MaxCLL measurement.
 

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FWIW, I believe they are still taken into account, but they're considered "incomplete", for some reason, because of which only the scene-by-scene peak information is used, but not the overall movie MaxCLL measurement.
Thanks, that's what I meant :)

I meant I can't test the MaxCLL cap, get the detailed info in the OSD and do an A/B compare with/without limiter.
 

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I would rather use the utility instead of during playback because I would rather have it right on first go.

I still saw a flash right into fade in on Predator for me. If someone else wants to check.

Right now with utility I am getting an exception class : EAccessViolation
exception message : Access violation at address 5C8B2F52 in module 'avformat-lav-58.dll'. Write of address 00000000

multiple times.

I can't finish doing the measurements. I can finsih it sometimes, but not others.
 

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@madshi

I woukd be happy to do the measurement separately with the exe instead of starting it automatically with each movie played.

Also, when no analysis has been yet performed, and the measured peak is over the mastering nits (mad-max), what do you do?

Do you also follow Kris Deering recommendation and you clip the tone mapping above mastering limit?
 

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I really dont want these measurements files clogging up my main films folders.
Great, hidden by default is not the end of the world. Even better if I could specify a folder.
Where to store the measurement files? It's a difficult question. The key problem for me is that madVR somehow has to be able to find those files, and match them to the movie. Placing the files right next to the movie file seems like the easiest solution to me. But if you don't like it, maybe I could alternatively allow you to choose one folder where the files go, if that's really necessary?

There will not be an option to create the files hidden or not hidden. Please discuss and vote on whether you want them hidden or not hidden. FWIW, I think if there were an option to store them in one folder, and you'd activate that option, the files would automatically not be hidden (makes no sense in that case). But if they're stored right next to the movie file, hidden could make sense. But you guys decide. I don't care either way, I just don't want to add an option for that.

General question:

Do you guys like the approach of capturing and storing measurement data during playback in your media player? Or do you think the command line tool makes this superfluous? I was planning to add an option to enable/disable that, but I would love not to have to add an option. So if say it's superfluous, I'm happy enough to simply disable it and require you to run the command line tool instead.
I would also like to not clutter up the video folders with *anything*. In fact, it's not uncommon that the video folders are on a network share mounted *read only*. If not read only, what would happen if the media file is open and playing by 2 different players on 2 different systems at 2 different locations in the file at the same time? (this is not completely uncommon here).

I would like at least an option to not have any measurement files created at all at time of playback and ability only to use the command line app to generate them. If I had to choose between having them at all or having them in the media folder (hidden or not), I'd choose not having them. So my vote (assuming it counts at all) is 2 fold. Having the ability for no disk writes during media playback. Having the ability to choose where the measurement file is located when using the command line app to create them.

If you choose to store them in a folder elsewhere, I think it's probably ok to allow for a flat folder with only filenames and assume you never have to deal with files of the same name in different folders. But I can see why this can be messy for you to deal with.
 

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My vote goes to "movie folder non-hidden". I already have each movie in a sepaerate folder with subtitle files so I think that would be the place where the measurement file should go to. Non-hidden as I want to immediately see if I already have a measurement file or not for any particular movie.
I don't think measuring during playback is needed now that we can use the tool.


At first I couldn't get the measurements file created by the tool to work but now I noticed the following:
- When using D3D11 native to create the measurements file: Hardware acceleration works and creating the file is pretty fast but the file doesn't work.
The OSD only shows "measured frame XX nits, tone map to XX nits" and the file is being overwritten after playback.

- When using DXVA2 native to create the measurements file: LAV shows "Active Hardware Accelerator: ", the process utilizes the cpu fully and barely any gpu and it's slow. But the created file does work.
The OSD correctly shows "frame XX nits, scene XX nits, movie XX nits" and the file is not being overwritten after playback.

This is with a 1050Ti, Win10, Measure18, Lav 0.73.1


edit: with D3D11 copy-back the generated file works and hardware acceleration also works.
 

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My vote goes to "movie folder non-hidden". I already have each movie in a sepaerate folder with subtitle files so I think that would be the place where the measurement file should go to. Non-hidden as I want to immediately see if I already have a measurement file or not for any particular movie.
I don't think measuring during playback is needed now that we can use the tool.


At first I couldn't get the measurements file created by the tool to work but now I noticed the following:
- When using D3D11 native to create the measurements file: Hardware acceleration works and creating the file is pretty fast but the file doesn't work.
The OSD only shows "measured frame XX nits, tone map to XX nits" and the file is being overwritten after playback.

- When using DXVA2 native to create the measurements file: LAV shows "Active Hardware Accelerator: ", the process utilizes the cpu fully and barely any gpu and it's slow. But the created file does work.
The OSD correctly shows "frame XX nits, scene XX nits, movie XX nits" and the file is not being overwritten after playback.

This is with a 1050Ti, Win10, Measure18, Lav 0.73.1
Thanks I have the same behaviour between D3D11 native and DXVA2 native, logs sent to Madshi :)

I have the same preferences re measurements files, so hopefully we'll get the option of not hiding them.

Re measuring during playback vs using utility:

1) I think it's useful to measure during playback if a completed measurements file doesn't exist already. I also plan to use the utility to generate all the data beforehand, but occasionally we might play a film without having been able to measure it before. It's nice to know that the measurement file will exist after that. Although it means we have to play the file until the very end of the credit, which means we'll really have to do it on purpose.
2) Whatever is decided regarding measuring or not during playback, I don't want to loose all the real-time info displayed, especially the histograms. These are really useful. It would make sense though to provide an option to not perform these for those who want to save a bit of performance during playback, yet want to benefit from the measured data.
 

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There will not be an option to create the files hidden or not hidden. Please discuss and vote on whether you want them hidden or not hidden. FWIW, I think if there were an option to store them in one folder, and you'd activate that option, the files would automatically not be hidden (makes no sense in that case). But if they're stored right next to the movie file, hidden could make sense. But you guys decide. I don't care either way, I just don't want to add an option for that.

General question:

Do you guys like the approach of capturing and storing measurement data during playback in your media player? Or do you think the command line tool makes this superfluous? I was planning to add an option to enable/disable that, but I would love not to have to add an option. So if say it's superfluous, I'm happy enough to simply disable it and require you to run the command line tool instead.
I very much prefer it stored in the same location as the movie. As was pointed out, JRiver MC stores MadVR (and LAV) in a Plugins directory. Storing these files there would likely cause issues/loss when updating. I'm OK with either hidden or not as long as that's still controllable by Windows view option. I'm also OK with a default of storing them with the movie, but providing an optional folder browse feature in settings.bin for those that prefer elsewhere.

I like the approach of playback capture, especially if the files aren't easily/readily shared and you have to run a command tool separately before getting the measurement file. At least if it was created during playback seamlessly, it would be there on subsequent viewings without ever having to take additional steps. It is NOT superfluous. It's assuming that folks will always use the command line tool first before watching anything. It would be a different story if the process was very fast, but it's not. That's why folks are suggesting storing it globally and/or doing it when ripping. It takes some time and it just seems much simpler and transparent to most end-users if it's done during playback. Providing the command line tool would satisfy those that want the file there before first playback.
 
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:) Well, it won't be easy to decide :)
I'd prefer a user selected folder, defaulting to "\ProgramData\MadVR" or users-roamingprofile"\MadVR" dir. But it seems that maybe both of them are needed, like MPC-HC/BE deals with subtitle files:
- if a folder is selected then that's the default place otherwise the movie folder
- similarly madvr can search for both locations during playback

But the filename will be a problem in the case of using a folder (not to overwrite an existing but different measurement file), e.g. 2 movies can be called "foo.mkv" at the same time, suggestion for it:
- "moviefilename-hash.measurement" (hash can be the whole file hash, or something else that madvr can create during creation)
- how to check which measurement file to use at the beginning of playback if multiple "moviefilename*" measurement files exist? :)

I don't have preference for the other question for now, I don't know what's the best. If an online db will be created (e.g. like opensubtitles.org) then probably the measuring during playback functionality will be unnecessary.
 

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Right now with utility I am getting an exception class : EAccessViolation
exception message : Access violation at address 5C8B2F52 in module 'avformat-lav-58.dll'. Write of address 00000000

multiple times.

I can't finish doing the measurements. I can finsih it sometimes, but not others.
I am getting the same issue when trying to measure Coco (2017) US, it always crashes at 42% for the 3 times I ran it. No issue in playback.
 

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My Vote same as NoTechi : Same folder as movie file not hidden.

I use KODI and I have several files for every movie : video file, metadata file, cover files.

With the solution in a special folder I have the problem that I have video files with the same name in different directories and I sometimes move video files to new harddisks.

If you want to have the files hidden this is possible with one command : C:> attrib +h *.measurements /s (without garanty)

Bernd
 

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Maybe just have a check box to allow specified directory, else you could default to movie dir. Non hidden is fine if I can specify a dir.

I name my movies properly so I won't run into an issue of same name two different videos.
 

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I vote for movie folder with not hidden measurement file. Kodi won't show it anyways. Like @BerndFfm said there is a way to hidden them afterwards.


Also since I'm playing movies off my media server via smb (read only) I would like the ability to turn off writing the measurement file during playback (if the file doesn't exist).
 

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New test build:

http://madshi.net/madVRhdrMeasure19.zip

Didn't really want to do a new test build, but the previous one still didn't always accept the measurement files, this one hopefully will.

I did change the file format one more time, so you'll have to throw away your old measurement files and redo them - sorry!

I still saw a flash right into fade in on Predator for me. If someone else wants to check.
Does the OSD report "measured frame % nits, scene % nits" when you play that scene (with a measurement file present)? Please test this with the latest test build (see link above).

Right now with utility I am getting an exception class : EAccessViolation
exception message : Access violation at address 5C8B2F52 in module 'avformat-lav-58.dll'. Write of address 00000000
Looks like a crash in LAV. Does this happen with any decoder type (DXVA Native vs Copyback, D3D11 Native vs Copyback)?

I am getting the same issue when trying to measure Coco (2017) US, it always crashes at 42% for the 3 times I ran it. No issue in playback.
Any more information about the crash? Do you get a crash log file on your desktop? Does it happen with any decoder type?

Also, when no analysis has been yet performed, and the measured peak is over the mastering nits (mad-max), what do you do?

Do you also follow Kris Deering recommendation and you clip the tone mapping above mastering limit?
If the limit option is set, yes I think so.
 

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Damn you! It's all your fault :)
Dang it, you got me. I can see that it has been reverted in latest build, I guess I'm gonna hide files manually, It's not a big deal for me.


I'm fine with storing measurements in movie file, I'm also for preforming measurements while playback, although I think madVR shouldn't save incomplete data, only files that are considered complete and valid.
 

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The question where to put the files will be answered very different by each user. I for instance have one of my movie folders sitting on the network and it is read-only, since once I have a full disk I "lock" it to being read-only.

I can also imagine someone bringing over a disk. It would be smarter to keep the gathered data, once the disk is removed again and also the owner might be annoyed by the files.

Maybe there should really be a way to make a choice about that.
 
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