As I see it, a bad side effect of using dumb is that some "pure" hues will get even more saturated than with "desat i" alone (without desat 2).
Then the only way is too use "desat 2" to counterbalance that.
@madshi is it possible to mix "desat i" and dumb in a way that it does not get more saturated than "desat i" alone? dumb would be used only to desaturate, but will never add saturation to "desat i".
Then maybe "desat 2" would not be useful anymore.
I can add an option for that.
Out of interest, do you remember where you found these patterns?
I think I got them from Stacey Spears, but I'm not 100% sure, to be honest.
It looks like it is the other way around, red become kind of pink
Euwh !! So that rules out desat y, I guess?
EDIT: Seems like y' is causing artifacts in other stuff, in that case desat i 1+2 with no dumb gets my vote as best option to use.
Ok, thanks. I might offer more options to fine tune desat i 2 in the next build.
Our eyes have different sensitivity to different colors. For example green more than red and blue. So perhaps it would make sense to apply a different algorithm/curve to each of the RGB values in a pixel. Or if that is too inefficient, add some extra bias based if there is a dominant color in a pixel.
That's what the "lum method" option already (optionally) offers.
On my LG CX OLED with passthrough, the spear is almost completely green, with just a slight bit of detectable yellow in the details if you look closely. In fact, it is far more green overall than madVR set to 500-1000 nits even with just desat 1, which comparatively desaturates a lot more of the highlights and makes the middle of the spear much more white.
If it's completely green with the LG, then it's probably also lacking in detail, making it look more like a green blob / flat surface?
For the "lum method", only "sep" give me logical transitions
To be fair, this specific test pattern is very "special": It actually has colors which are valid in its YCbCr encoding, but they're not valid after YCbCr to RGB conversion. Practically, there are e.g. blue pixels in there with 10,000 nits. But in RGB, only white pixels can reach 10,000 nits. A movie can never have blue pixels with 10,000 nits, because mastering is done in RGB and not in YCbCr. I intentionally designed this test pattern to use "invalid" colors, to put extra stress on the tone mapping algorithm. But practically that means that the artifacts you get with this test pattern might not matter too much, if it's very far on the right side, especially with blue.
Rename the "hdr10000nitsColored.ytp" file to "hdr10000nitsColored transfer=hdr.ytp" and it will work with build 115 😉
Hehe, I had done the same here...
Personally, I feel like Manni (but only 50 nits). Have a JVC N5 (RS1000) with 3D-Lut and no problem. If I take the 3D-Lut out of the chain, then I can e.g. Passengers and Greatest Showman recognize the skin color problem well. Despite manual calibration with professional tools.
So you're saying you have no oversaturation problem, once you calibrate with a 3DLUT, is that correct?
My idea: Would it be helpful to measure striking scenes in the still image with JVC N5 (RS1000) Frame Adaption (Pana Player) / JVC and Pana Player SDR Tone Mapping / JVC madVR.
Then set the screenshots of Calman with the Saturation Sweeps here.
There you could see the differences in Delta Hue, Luminance and Color and possibly see conclusions?
The problem is that if you try to capture what the JVC DTM does, you're involving a camera, and that alone can screw everything up completely.
Comparing "external" DTM algorithms (those not sitting inside of the display itself) would be possible this way. But then, tone mapping often has to condense both luminance and saturation down to some extent. So if one DTM reduces luminance more than saturation, and the other reduces saturation more than luminance, who did it "right"? There's no clear answer to that. The only thing you could really objectively look at is hue, but even then, any hue error depends on which color model you use. E.g. some color models take hue perception into account when desaturating colors, while others don't. So it's a very difficult thing to scientifically measure and judge.
Yep, I read that other thread comparing the two products and was blown away how jacked up that was.
If they graded that film even on a Dolby pulsar at 4000 nits it would be clipping everything above that point, clipping = hue shifting.
True.
That specific frame doesn't have a lot of yellow on my C8 either (it looks more bright orange than on your photo) but a few frames after that the next explosion is much more yellow/white....
Yes, this frame picked by James Freeman doesn't have a lot of yellow in it. The other frame I usually use hat a lot more yellow in it - but only in the inner part of the explosion, not in the outer circle.
When I projected the JVC to a small size and got 5500 nits I was still entering 5500 into MadVR so would need to do again and see, since madvr would have kept correct hue after that point.
At the time I think I said it was mostly red, or not super yellow anyway, I should do it again, though I did find some photos, and interestingly they are yellowish. But also, when you near the exposure limits of the camera it can hue shift things or make them turn yellow too. LOL.
I don't recall what you told me exactly, I can't seem to find the PM/email. But I do remember that you said it did not look like what Compromise On produces. FWIW, the inner circle of the explosion in this frame has quite a bit of yellow in it, but the outer circle is completely red, and IIRC Compromise On makes both the inner and outer circles completely yellow. On the other hand, Compromise Off loses quite a bit of the yellow punch in the middle. So it's far from perfect, as well.
Just for reference.....
Madshi posted some images comparing "Another" DTM solution with madVR...
Attached is Madshi,s image as posted..
The second pic is from the projected image from my Z1/RS4500 using the "Other" DTM solution of the same scene...
Thanks for posting this. Your photo has a quite strong blue tint, though, which makes it hard to judge skin tones. A blue tint of course makes skin tones look "cooler" = less saturated. I assume your camera added this blue tint.
But this is the problem with photos from the screen: The digital image, even after tone mapping, goes through so many additional steps, from 3DLUT calibration, to projector processing, to projector panels, to screen material, to camera imperfectness. It's really hard to judge the final result based on such a photo. Which is why I prefer to do digital screenshots. There's nothing lost or distorted that way.
Anyway, I'm happy to redo the digital screenshots with your exact settings. Can you send me a list (or photo) of your exact settings, so I can duplicate them exactly? There are a
lot of them (in some menus you have to press "alt" to get access to even more settings). So to make this worthwhile it would make sense for me to use the
exact same settings you're using.
I am actually a little disappointed in
@madshi for making this grenade style comment...
And then follow it up with this later, a lot later...
This borders on irresponsible since we would blast someone criticizing MadVR when not properly setting it up for their display.
I expect a lot more from you!
I apologize for using imperfect settings, but to my defense: I did research which settings to use in the "other thread", and picked the settings from recommendations from key people and what some users posted as their preference. Now woofer is not happy with the settings I chose, and that's fair enough, but honestly, if it's so difficult to choose proper settings, is that my fault?
Anyway, I've been quite silent on the whole comparison topic before. E.g. I've not said a word when some people (including you, IIRC) suggested that the other product would now have superior scaling, which is far from the truth. I was hoping that someone would speak up and set things right. But weeks and months later, nobody did. At some point I can't justify lying down and silently taking a beating, any longer. I should have a right to defend myself and my product, if other people post claims that I believe to be factually incorrect, shouldn't I?
envy has always had a lot more saturation than the lumagen
How can you claim that, without having tested that yourself?
You might not know this, but in many scenes (not with the LG Colors of Journey test image, though, interestingly!) Envy/madVR is a
lot brighter with default settings than any other DTM. And I'm not convinced that the users comparing saturation levels have adjusted Envy/madVR settings properly to negate this brightness difference. Obviously, if you compare 2 different DTM solutions at very different brightness levels, the darker one will look more natural and less oversaturated. And I'm thinking that this might very well explain the reports about Envy/madVR being more saturated than other (good) DTMs.
Seems to me like the simplest explanation is the lumagen was too hastily setup with not enough time to get it right.
It's possible, of course. But it's only one possible explanation, there are others (see above).
Madhsi stated that he is basically giving up on a fix for oversat/hue issues at this point…
That is not true. And this is the 2nd time you're saying this, and the 2nd time I'm correcting you.
The Envy I have here (still unopened) needs to leave in the next week or two, hopefully I can have a Lumagen here around the same time. And ill see what I can do. I will certainly spend time to show things like saturation between the two units anyway as its clear it needs to be deep dived more.
That would be great, thanks. I can add desat options to the Envy firmware any time you're ready. That said, your family is much more important, obviously.
