[filmgeek47]

Well said, @((( atom ))) The issue here is one of expectations and communication. MadVR has a long history of providing a fantastic free product for a lot of people. It's now been multiple years since the last stable release. Since then, we've had the (albeit basic) time restrictions added, with more restrictions discussed. AFAIK there's been no real discussion of what the plan is for the next release, just that @madshi wasn't ready to talk about it.

Forgive my cynicism, but as a consumer, when you see a developer who's got every incentive not to release a product drag their feet on discussing its future, it can't help but make me nervous that we never will see a future paid or free/stable release.

A simple clarification from Madshi would be really appreciated (and help to end this discussion which is clearly annoying people). I'm clearly not alone here.

 

[ddgdl]

Madshi said that when tonemapping is done, he will issue another public release. He has never said anything to the contrary. But we are also nowhere near TM being completed, so it won't be for another year I would guess.

 

[filmgeek47]

Madshi said that when tonemapping is done, he will issue another public release. He has never said anything to the contrary. But we are also nowhere near TM being completed, so it won't be for another year I would guess.

Any chance you remember when/where he said that? The only statement I could find was pretty vague (something to the effect of MadVR will have some sort of future at some point).

A lot of the communications issues here could be solved by a linked post somewhere where Madshi could leave up info like links to the latest beta and his statement on the state of the software. As is, with or without the de-railed moments, this thread is unwieldy as all hell. I pity the newcomer trying to setup MadVR these days.

 

[Venue]

To be honest, I don't think the tone mapping ever will be completed, has nothing to do with Madshi or madVR, but rather the underlying issues of HDR and its lack of standards.
Add to that, a varying taste of implementation, different users, different opinions, different setups, equipment/technologies needing different accomodations and different masters.
Basically impossible to 'complete', nothing new there, selling a product like this means it needs to be a set-and-forget solution, none of you could argue that's the current state here.

HDR loses at the end of the day, but that's just me.

 

[((( atom )))]

why? enjoy the ride or get off the bus.
maybe you can start a new thread for madVR support for the beta versions since you rightly point out there is little to no documentation or guidance for those just joining other than them helping themselves or continuing to clutter up this thread. you will have something much more constructive to do with your time.

You obviously did not read what I wrote or failed to understand it. Maybe try again.

As also others pointed out, communication would be very important at this point in time and also in this thread. It more or less all began here and is therefore documented here as well, for anyone who wants to understand.

We all have one thing in common, we all love madVR and its magic!

Therefore it would be very appreciated to
a) be friendly and polite
b) not shout down everyone, who 'is not on topic' when he is just that. The scope of the topic simply widened for now and I'm sure it will narrow down again, whatever comes out of this temporary widening.

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[stef2]

Thank you atom! your post(s) are 100% on topic in this thread, no doubt about it. Discussing about the future of madvr certainly as its place here. Hopefully Mathias will soon chime in and reassure all of us. If I were him I would to the same and try to monetize my hard work. Here I am hoping that I will soon have to pay for MadVR!

 

[Javs]

why? enjoy the ride or get off the bus.
maybe you can start a new thread for madVR support for the beta versions since you rightly point out there is little to no documentation or guidance for those just joining other than them helping themselves or continuing to clutter up this thread. you will have something much more constructive to do with your time.

I think his post was absolutely excellent and on point. I echo all his thoughts.

I would like Ric and Mathias to briefly discuss these points if they could, publicly right here, its not off topic because what happens here is directly ported to a commercial product and they are asking money off peoples research efforts in a sense. I think its a unique situation where a lot of us put in dozens, hundreds of hours to bring it to the level its at, even recently it was just renamed DTM 2.0 at lightning speed and a press release was immediately sent out, its not even close to done yet.

Also, rhetorical, but go back 6 months or more, if I said nothing about colour saturation and kicked up such a fuss would there even be a DTM 2.0 today? IMO we got here by trying to troubleshoot colour, I remember the conversations where I/we asked if different curves might help retain highlights and tame saturation which they clearly do! It's interesting isn't it. There is a hell of a lot of cause and effect here.

If we are not a truly important cog in the machine, then tell us, and take your beta testing totally private, else, some clarity would be nice if our efforts are not in vain. If anyone wants a refresher on where it was before this thread go back and read the first 5-10 pages here, I have posted hundreds of screenshots where we all were trying to come to an agreement on how MadVR should handle tone mapping at all, its a really good read actually, I read the first 50 or so pages not too long ago just to see where we all came from. Good times.

Without this very thread, I guarantee you the Envy would not be a thing right now, I remember it clear as day, Ric was in here from the beginning and at one point we all just flat out said, Mathias you really have to make a box for DTM! Opportunity for Ric and he jumped on it, now hes pretty much in the business side handling all the marketing and product direction. Its not Mathias you need to convince to release a paid PC version, its Ric. IMO there should have been literally only a tone mapping box product that thousands of us could have bought for under $500 like an HDFury device, but instead there is an elite box that 1% of us can afford.

I know you are reading this thread Ric, can you have a chat with all of us here publicly? I guess you are not obliged to, that's fine. Ive been a stout supporter and probably have a top 5 post count in this thread I dont think thats going to change, but yeah, honestly I would still like to see a tone mapping box with LUT support. Simple as that. If a paid version must be made it would be good to start thinking about what its going to have vs the Envy, clearly somethings gotta give feature wise.

 

[ausvette]

Development of madvr has been going on for 8 years or so with many, many large gaps between updates and betas. With the Envy, the demands on madshi's time have increased even more. He has always said he will release another stable version some day. Nothing in this thread suggests otherwise, so until madshi says something to the contrary, you can safely believe that he is going to stick to his word as he always has done.

Getting this thread back on topic:

By increasing the brightness speed adjustments across the board significantly (top end is now I think over 3200, for example), I was able to eliminate a number (but not 100%) of the brightness shifting issues we were seeing with 130. But it was enough to let me watch a movie with steepness 150 and hstm enabled without any visible issues.

I've continued to flip back and forth between 150 and @Fer15 's last two curves options. I'm fine with either, as I think are most people. I'd imagine madshi could implement one or both of them and we could move on.

Could you post your brightness adjustment speeds please?

I had already increased mine. But am still experiencing issues. Maybe I didn't go far enough, so would be good to compare with yours.

 

[woofer]

Without this very thread, I guarantee you the Envy would not be a thing right now

Exactly..... !! This to a large degree seems to be "Glossed" over far to often.

So in a sense madVR does in fact "Owe" many of the hard working and dedicated "Beta Testers" who have assisted in the development of the whole madVR DTM journey!

 

[ddgdl]

Could you post your brightness adjustment speeds please?

I had already increased mine. But am still experiencing issues. Maybe I didn't go far enough, so would be good to compare with yours.

I used the % diff number up until 100, then doubled after that until 800% when I quadrupled:

0 - 20 - 50 - 100 - 400 - 800 - 3200

 

[goodsonr]

.IMO there should have been literally only a tone mapping box product that thousands of us could have bought for under $500 like an HDFury device, but instead there is an elite box that 1% of us can afford.

If you go back to the early days of the envy-anticipation thread you'll see (as I'm sure you already know) that you are not alone. In my head, I was quite willing to pay more like $1,500 or so. But those dreams were dashed pretty early on. I keep hoping that Envy will be so successful that the money will pour in to support construction of a stripped-down DTM box.

Until then, I'll keep hoping that the PC version survives in some version, even if it means time-license-update-only releases every-so-often.

 

[catav]

I think his post was absolutely excellent and on point. I echo all his thoughts.

I would like Ric and Mathias to briefly discuss these points if they could, publicly right here, its not off topic because what happens here is directly ported to a commercial product and they are asking money off peoples research efforts in a sense. I think its a unique situation where a lot of us put in dozens, hundreds of hours to bring it to the level its at, even recently it was just renamed DTM 2.0 at lightning speed and a press release was immediately sent out, its not even close to done yet.

Also, rhetorical, but go back 6 months or more, if I said nothing about colour saturation and kicked up such a fuss would there even be a DTM 2.0 today? IMO we got here by trying to troubleshoot colour, I remember the conversations where I/we asked if different curves might help retain highlights and tame saturation which they clearly do! It's interesting isn't it. There is a hell of a lot of cause and effect here.

If we are not a truly important cog in the machine, then tell us, and take your beta testing totally private, else, some clarity would be nice if our efforts are not in vain. If anyone wants a refresher on where it was before this thread go back and read the first 5-10 pages here, I have posted hundreds of screenshots where we all were trying to come to an agreement on how MadVR should handle tone mapping at all, its a really good read actually, I read the first 50 or so pages not too long ago just to see where we all came from. Good times.

Without this very thread, I guarantee you the Envy would not be a thing right now, I remember it clear as day, Ric was in here from the beginning and at one point we all just flat out said, Mathias you really have to make a box for DTM! Opportunity for Ric and he jumped on it, now hes pretty much in the business side handling all the marketing and product direction. Its not Mathias you need to convince to release a paid PC version, its Ric. IMO there should have been literally only a tone mapping box product that thousands of us could have bought for under $500 like an HDFury device, but instead there is an elite box that 1% of us can afford.

I know you are reading this thread Ric, can you have a chat with all of us here publicly? I guess you are not obliged to, that's fine. Ive been a stout supporter and probably have a top 5 post count in this thread I dont think thats going to change, but yeah, honestly I would still like to see a tone mapping box with LUT support. Simple as that. If a paid version must be made it would be good to start thinking about what its going to have vs the Envy, clearly somethings gotta give feature wise.

I know we have clashed in the past but actually we have much more in common than you may recognize. Let me explain.

Overall we are totally on the same page with madVR dev.
You seem to admire the same improvements that I do. But more importantly you call out the BS on certain “improvements”. Bravo to you. An open and unfettered mind is vital. Your interjections are going to be more than ever needed going forward. I hope you can find some quality time to intercede given your personal situation with family and all.

I love how you help the community even when we have seemingly “negative” responses to the current dev (time restrictions with no advertised public release)… That’s a hard one.

You are a true trooper. No smoke blowing on this one Javs...

Okay... time for some madVR improvements...

 

[Bandyka]

You obviously did not read what I wrote or failed to understand it. Maybe try again.

As also others pointed out, communication would be very important at this point in time and also in this thread. It more or less all began here and is therefore documented here as well, for anyone who wants to understand.

We all have one thing in common, we all love madVR and its magic!

Therefore it would be very appreciated to
a) be friendly and polite
b) not shout down everyone, who 'is not on topic' when he is just that. The scope of the topic simply widened for now and I'm sure it will narrow down again, whatever comes out of this temporary widening.

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Completely agree. Also most of othe newcomers simply have no idea what is going on hence their basic questions, then they get shut down quickly becuase they are annoying. A simple sticky and changle log would mostly eliminate this, simple as that. Even I who reads up frequently often have trouble finding a simple piece of info or link, it is designed to be a discussion hence not user friendly at all. I also do remember madshi saying he will release a public one once TM is done but again, finding such tiny info is impossible here. All is needed is a little bit of order in the chaos to be able to focus on the taks at hand again.

 

[woofer]

I think the "overwhelming' Gist of what has propagated over the past few days is that MANY would like some official comment on the future direction of madVR "PC" from either Mathias or Ric.

Its not at all unreasonable to expect this.......

One only has to look at the enormous effort and time some individuals here have put towards madVR..... Its a staggering amount of feedback and testing to the developer ( madVR) that ultimately benefits the now "Business" side of madVR.

So its not surprising that "individuals" are now pondering the question of "Whats in it for me?? "

Fair is Fair!

 

[James Freeman]

So its not surprising that "individuals" are now pondering the question of "Whats in it for me?? "

More like:
One day when I'll want to relax and watch a movie, madVR will throw me this:

This "sudden death mode" is turning enthusiastic loyal madVR fans to forced beta testers.
Sometimes life happens and I can't return to this thread daily to provide feedback about tone mapping, and I also don't want it to suddenly stop working when I want to enjoy a movie.
This whole situation makes me sad, I hope madshi will find a good balanced solution for us all.

 

[FoLLgoTT]

I agree with most of you. A never ending beta without changelog and a bunch of undocumented switches is not a satisfying situation.

I'm still convinced that there are enough people who are willing to pay for a good product. I would pay for good tone mapping, for geometric correction (curved screen) and for a good FI. A "madVR pro" with special features would surely have its customers. And I don't think it would stay in concurrency with the Envy, because the target applications are different. I hope there will be such a decision one day to make madVR a commercial product. It would lead to a win-win situation.

 

[madshi]

Hey guys, if you want to discuss the future of madVR HTPC, please start a different thread and point me to it. I will comment in it (though likely only once).

I will not reply in this thread to anything other than the topic of improving tone mapping. If I did, that would just be an open invitation to ask all kinds of questions here. This thread is already long enough as it is. So please let's keep this thread on topic. Thank you.

 

[ix400]

 

[Technology3456]

I agree with most of you. A never ending beta without changelog and a bunch of undocumented switches is not a satisfying situation.

I'm still convinced that there are enough people who are willing to pay for a good product. I would pay for good tone mapping, for geometric correction (curved screen) and for a good FI. A "madVR pro" with special features would surely have its customers. And I don't think it would stay in concurrency with the Envy, because the target applications are different. I hope there will be such a decision one day to make madVR a commercial product. It would lead to a win-win situation.

Maybe instead of the feedback from HTPC users, this probably isn't the right word but, "subsidizing," so to speak, the commercially-priced Envy product, maybe instead the proceeds from the commercially-priced Envy product could in part go to "subsidizing," so to speak, the new free version for HTPC users. If it can work in one way, why not in the other way too?

With some of those free-to-play multiplayer video games, there is "pay to win." The people who don't pay extra do not get to play the same game as the people who do, or get to compete on an even playing field. But with some of the free-to-play multiplayer video games, the developer still makes a lot of extra money off microtransactions, but only for "cosmetics" that change the player character's appearance in the game, their clothing etc, but nothing that affects how the game plays.

I think it would be great if madvr could develop a business plan akin to the second example, not the first. Release a full free version of Madvr Envy to HTPC users, but without the ability to customize the color of your home page, or decorate it with emojis, and stuff like that some people, apparently quite a lot of people, will pay thousands of dollars for, but that missing out on does not affect the functionality of the software for the average user. And if there have to be functionality differences on top of this, try to limit the extra features on the Envy to only ones that are needed for running a professional cinema, but nothing that could ever under any circumstances apply in a home theater, so that home theater users will still have the full home theater features on the free version, but commercial theaters that can afford a $10,000 box still have a reason to get the box.

With that said, I would definitely pay, I don't know, $300 for full madvr software if it wasn't available free. I was just told it was free since I started planning my home theater to use madvr for at least 2D discs, so seeing all the posts now that maybe it's not that simple anymore, it's not as good news compared to hearing that it's free and there are no issues. But as long as the beta still works, and will continue to work, does it matter if it's called a beta or not? I am not well versed in PC software in the first place so maybe I am missing the forest through the trees. I do know that even my friend who raves about madvr says there is a bug with skin tones being too red, but that it will definitely get fixed. But if zero updates are coming for 1-2 years then maybe he wasn't aware of that and would have a different opinion, I do not know.

Edit: One thing is for sure, the commercial version of madvr is definitely causing a bit of envy among consumer madvr users, eh, am-I-right???

 

[woofer]

Hey guys, if you want to discuss the future of madVR HTPC, please start a different thread and point me to it. I will comment in it (though likely only once).

Done...