[logan1833]

I am in the early stages of constructing a new home and am working with a home automation consultant to get the wiring plan set. My wife won’t go for floorstanding speakers in the TV/family room unfortunately, but she’s open to in/on wall speakers. The consultant is actually recommending an all “in ceiling” system using angled Paradigm P80-A for the LCR, P65-R for the rears, and an in-wall sub. He claims it will perform as well as in-wall LCR, but based on all of my reading on here I can’t believe that’s actually true (he’s really great at automation, but I trust him less when it comes to audio quality).

I think I’ve read all of the recent threads on in/on wall speakers, and I’m still not sure I’m close to knowing what is best for my application. Here are the room details:

• This will be the main TV/movie room, but music is also quite important to me. In a lot of the threads on in-wall speakers, music seems like almost an afterthought to HT. Room dimensions are 15' x 12' 6" x 10' ceiling.
• The TV will be 82”ish and wall mounted. Probably going to need to position the center channel horizontally above or below, which I recognize is not ideal.
• The couch will be against the back of the room with built-ins above – in-ceiling speakers for the rears seem likely the best option.
• As you can see from the picture of our room, the family room opens into the kitchen. Not sure what, if any, challenges that presents. The back of the house is going to have a lot of glass (doors and windows), but there’ll be privacy screens that will likely be down much of the time when in use. I’m hoping that will help with reflection issues, but maybe not.
• WAF Aesthetics – seems like most in-walls have paintable grills these days, but if some brand has a particularly clean look, would be good to know; if on-wall, speaker would need to be attractive and relatively shallow.
• I’d like to keep the budget for the LCR to around $1000/speaker, if I can. If going to $1500/speaker would allow for a substantial jump in performance, I’d consider it.

Based on all of this and what I’ve read on here, these are currently on my shortlist.

• Revel W893/W990 (use same for horizonal center or some other Revel model?)
• GoldenEar Invisa SPS (use SPS or MPX for center?)
• Paradigm CI Pro P3-LCR (use P3 or P1 for center?)
• Totem In Wall or On Wall – no idea which version would be best for my application or whether they are within budget

Thoughts on these options? Others I should be considering instead?

Thanks for your help!

 

[RayGuy]

Totem Tribe III across the front. You'll have to negotiate a significant discount, but worth the effort. These will give you both fine music listening and good HT. Placement will be crucial to get the proper imaging/soundstage. To that end, I would go for on-wall vs in-wall, as it allows for finer placement and the ability to change placement after the install, if needed.

I would avoid in-wall subs, as once again, they are not mobile after installation. Subwoofer positioning is critical in getting even frequency response at your seat. For music, you may want to consider a sealed sub, as they tend to be a touch better for that application. That said, you do give up some of the lowest-frequency oomph of a ported design, if action movies are your priority. Look at the Totem Tribe sub. It is tall and narrow, and can be placed on it's stand, attached to a wall, laid on it's side, hidden under the furniture ... a very flexible solution. Other options for thin subs are from Triad and Kef.

Your surrounds can be placed on or in the side walls adjacent to the couch, slightly above seated ear level. Totem Kin In-walls may be the best option, saves a few bucks, and compatible with the Tribes.

Are you considering Atmos, or 5.1?

 

[Goatsghost]

In wall is too permanent for me. Have you looked bv at on wall?

For example I've also been looking at the:
martin logan slmxl/8i,
*Xtr 60,
* kef t301wh,
*rp 500c,
*mythos 9.

For whatever reason, my weeb searches have been unfruitful of comparing on wall LCR options. Seems like lcr are the neglected stepkids of speakers.

 

[smithsabom]

I would recommend against an in wall sub unless it is a vibration cancelling design like this: https://www.paradigm.com/en/in-wall-subwoofers/rvc-12sq

http://www.jlaudio.com/home-audio-in-wall-subwoofers-fathom-iws

https://community.savant.com/Defaul...isCSRFlow=true&portalUser=&store=&cclcl=en_US

 

[mmiles]

Logan,

I prefer in wall to on wall. A properly designed in wall can use the wall cavity to increase low and mid frequency response.

The product you selected are very good. There are many more options of course but to numerous to list.

The Revel 990 has additional user tweaks (LF boundary and listening axis) but the biggest cost difference is the use of a cast aluminum baffle. I can see in high volume use where that can be helpful BUT it comes at a 70% premium.

Now The GoldenEar is another fine alternative. The MPX can be used for LCR but I think they perform better as surrounds. That’s what I use and have installed them for others. The SPS is a good choice for LCR but overkill for surrounds IMHO.

In wall/ceiling carry more profit since you are not paying for the box. So keep that in mind when negotiating.

As far as the sub in the room or in the wall BOTH will transfer sound to adjacent living areas IF the room is not purpose built and designed. Note an in wall sub (2x8” or 2 x 10”) will only hit 3-35hZ. I think that is sufficient since this is a dual use space. You will not get the chest thump stand-alone subs with 15”+ drivers produce.

 

[Jonas2]

I am in the early stages of constructing a new home and am working with a home automation consultant to get the wiring plan set. My wife won’t go for floorstanding speakers in the TV/family room unfortunately, but she’s open to in/on wall speakers. The consultant is actually recommending an all “in ceiling” system using angled Paradigm P80-A for the LCR, P65-R for the rears, and an in-wall sub. He claims it will perform as well as in-wall LCR, but based on all of my reading on here I can’t believe that’s actually true (he’s really great at automation, but I trust him less when it comes to audio quality).

In-Ceiling systems can sound quite good, this is true. As good as in-wall? It'd really depend on the speakers and their placement. Architectural speakers are inherently limiting, so you've really gotta get it right up front, and that can be challenging for structural reasons. No room for experimentation. If designed properly, you can get it good though. Still, you'd really need the space designed by an HT specialist to do so, definitely not a GC or even the average "audio consultant", my $0.02. Your going to have greater flexibility with on-walls, though they might not offer the cleanest look - really depends on what you're ultimately in favor of. I'd on/in-wall L/C/R, not in ceiling. In-ceiling pretty much kills it for Atmos if you ever go there.

Based on all of this and what I’ve read on here, these are currently on my shortlist.

• Revel W893/W990 (use same for horizonal center or some other Revel model?)
• GoldenEar Invisa SPS (use SPS or MPX for center?)
• Paradigm CI Pro P3-LCR (use P3 or P1 for center?)
• Totem In Wall or On Wall – no idea which version would be best for my application or whether they are within budget

Thoughts on these options? Others I should be considering instead?

I'm a Paradigm / Totem guy, so yeah, I like those two choices. One gent in the Totem Owner's thread just installed a pair of Tribe IIIs as L/R and a Tribe V as center. Quite a bit above your budget, but great results, good looking speakers, and yes - the Tribe IIIs are nicer than Is or IIs, and available in gloss finishes vs. only satin if that matters. A trio of IIIs would be quite nice, a V is a real treat. The Paradigms should give you good results too. Keep in mind, the L/C/R (especially the C) are the most important speakers in HT, so this is where you want to focus on quality. Unfortunately, architecturals can be among the most challenging to actually audition, but if you have a chance, do so.

Totem Tribe III across the front. You'll have to negotiate a significant discount, but worth the effort. These will give you both fine music listening and good HT. Placement will be crucial to get the proper imaging/soundstage. To that end, I would go for on-wall vs in-wall, as it allows for finer placement and the ability to change placement after the install, if needed.

YES.

 

[head_unit]

I am in the early stages of constructing a new home...all “in ceiling”...Probably going to need to position the center channel horizontally above or below, which I recognize is not ideal.

- In-wall subs I agree gotta be canceling, like the JL, expensive. If you go this route, put that in BEFORE the drywalling. And understand there is a separate amp that must go someplace, and some kind of speaker cabling. Alternatively, can the sub(s) function as a coffee table? OR stick several compact ones in the bookshelf?
- On-wall speakers have little enclosure volume. This means power hungry and bass challenged; it's physics (Google Hofmann's Iron Law). Doesn't mean they'll sound bad but I'd prefer in-wall for higher efficiency and more extended bass to more easily blend to the subs. An advantage of in-wall over on-wall is elimination of a first early reflection. The disadvantage-the wall panel vibrating-could be ameliorated with new construction by putting in bracing and anti-vibration coating. The cavity, stuffed with fiberglass, equals about 3-1/2 cubic feet. That's a big speaker!
- I suspect your spouse would prefer painted in-wall over ANY on-wall, NONE of which will be judged "attractive" ha ha
- Particularly for music, I'd want in-wall over in-ceiling.
- What is above the ceiling? If another living space, you must have back box ceiling speakers or the sound will bleed.
- Your in-walls are outside walls (??) so that's not a worry for them.
- Here's a worthy in-wall candidate https://www.focal.com/en/custom-integration/in-wall-in-ceiling-loudspeakers/300-series/in-wall-speakers/300iwlcr6. Especially for center, 3-way is much better so as to avoid the "Venetian blind" beaming problem. This one can rotate the mid/tweet to put vertically.
- I'd probably put the L/R higher than normal and the center above the TV

 

[logan1833]

Thanks so much to all for the feedback! It's very helpful and I appreciate your time.

I showed my wife some google pics tonight of the totems actually installed on a wall around a TV. Needless to say, she was less enthusiastic about the "on wall" option than she originally suggested (shocking, right?). I'm not inclined to expend political capital for the totems (as excellent as they might be) if an in wall model would work well, and from many of the responses it sounds as if they might. I think I'm focused on the in wall options: Paradigm, GE, Revel, (others?) in no particular order.

Although my focus right now is on the LCR, I have thought some about the sub. The couch will be sitting flush up against a built-in -- bookshelves above the couch, but obviously nothing from couch height down. I was thinking that this space would be a good place to put a sub, maybe something like a James Loudspeaker PowerPipe that would be piped in below the couch via toe kick. Its also possible that I could employ something else in that 12' 6" x 12/15" space. But first I'm focused on the LCR.

Does anybody have experience with Paradigm v. GE v. Revel in wall? I doubt that I'm going to have the opportunity to listen to all three and I'm really torn.

 

[logan1833]

- I suspect your spouse would prefer painted in-wall over ANY on-wall, NONE of which will be judged "attractive" ha ha
- Particularly for music, I'd want in-wall over in-ceiling.
- What is above the ceiling? If another living space, you must have back box ceiling speakers or the sound will bleed.
- Your in-walls are outside walls (??) so that's not a worry for them.

Totally, after tonight I think in-wall is going to be a much easier lift than on-wall. And she may not be wrong about that.

Above the ceiling is a kid's room. Another good reason for in-wall over in-ceiling, right?

This is a rowhouse, so the in-walls would be backed up to the neighbor's house, albeit through a shared brick party wall.

 

[logan1833]

Logan,
The Revel 990 has additional user tweaks (LF boundary and listening axis) but the biggest cost difference is the use of a cast aluminum baffle. I can see in high volume use where that can be helpful BUT it comes at a 70% premium.

.....

As far as the sub in the room or in the wall BOTH will transfer sound to adjacent living areas IF the room is not purpose built and designed. Note an in wall sub (2x8” or 2 x 10”) will only hit 3-35hZ. I think that is sufficient since this is a dual use space. You will not get the chest thump stand-alone subs with 15”+ drivers produce.

I'm not educated enough to know whether the 990's additional features are worth it over the 893. I can afford the 990, but perhaps the money is best spent elsewhere?

I'm not terribly concerned about the sub (or any other speaker) transferring to adjacent spaces. The most adjacent space is the kitchen, and most of the sleeping spaces will be on the floor above, with the master bedroom at the other end of the house on the floor above.

 

[RayGuy]

Thanks so much to all for the feedback! It's very helpful and I appreciate your time.

I showed my wife some google pics tonight of the totems actually installed on a wall around a TV. Needless to say, she was less enthusiastic about the "on wall" option than she originally suggested (shocking, right?). I'm not inclined to expend political capital for the totems (as excellent as they might be) if an in wall model would work well, and from many of the responses it sounds as if they might. I think I'm focused on the in wall options: Paradigm, GE, Revel, (others?) in no particular order.

Although my focus right now is on the LCR, I have thought some about the sub. The couch will be sitting flush up against a built-in -- bookshelves above the couch, but obviously nothing from couch height down. I was thinking that this space would be a good place to put a sub, maybe something like a James Loudspeaker PowerPipe that would be piped in below the couch via toe kick. Its also possible that I could employ something else in that 12' 6" x 12/15" space. But first I'm focused on the LCR.

Does anybody have experience with Paradigm v. GE v. Revel in wall? I doubt that I'm going to have the opportunity to listen to all three and I'm really torn.

FYI, Totem Tribe has both on-wall and in-wall options, should in-wall be a requirement. Totem Kin also has in-wall speakers.

 

[callas01]

Thanks so much to all for the feedback! It's very helpful and I appreciate your time.

I showed my wife some google pics tonight of the totems actually installed on a wall around a TV. Needless to say, she was less enthusiastic about the "on wall" option than she originally suggested (shocking, right?). I'm not inclined to expend political capital for the totems (as excellent as they might be) if an in wall model would work well, and from many of the responses it sounds as if they might. I think I'm focused on the in wall options: Paradigm, GE, Revel, (others?) in no particular order.

Although my focus right now is on the LCR, I have thought some about the sub. The couch will be sitting flush up against a built-in -- bookshelves above the couch, but obviously nothing from couch height down. I was thinking that this space would be a good place to put a sub, maybe something like a James Loudspeaker PowerPipe that would be piped in below the couch via toe kick. Its also possible that I could employ something else in that 12' 6" x 12/15" space. But first I'm focused on the LCR.

Does anybody have experience with Paradigm v. GE v. Revel in wall? I doubt that I'm going to have the opportunity to listen to all three and I'm really torn.

Look at Dynaudios S4 in wall solutions if you want something that’s highly musical but good for HT too.

The S4-LCR MT and 65W are modular and can be added onto each other, then the other S4s series speakers are individually designed. Depends how you want to set things up. Pretty unique how they did the LCR design.


All in your price range too.

https://www.dedicatedaudio.com/collections/dynaudio?page=1

https://www.dynaudio.com/custom-install/overview/in-wall

 

[mmiles]

^^^

Forgot about the Dynaudio. I heard them at CEDIA 2 years ago.

Not sure the sonic +/- of the 893-990 to be candid.

 

[Soulburner]

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/hiw-1.html and spend the savings on a really good sub with a furniture grade finish that can be used as an end table.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15mk2.html

or

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15hmk2.html

Depending on desired height.

Same with the PSA S1510 or S3010: https://www.powersoundaudio.com/pages/sealed-subwoofers

 

[Jonas2]

I showed my wife some google pics tonight of the totems actually installed on a wall around a TV. Needless to say, she was less enthusiastic about the "on wall" option than she originally suggested (shocking, right?). I'm not inclined to expend political capital for the totems (as excellent as they might be) if an in wall model would work well, and from many of the responses it sounds as if they might. I think I'm focused on the in wall options: Paradigm, GE, Revel, (others?) in no particular order.

Fair enough! Not shocked at all. I get it. As RayGuy mentioned, Totem offers the Tribe in-wall option as well, so one to be considered. There are actually quite a few out there, once you start hunting around. What you might find locally or able to audition, another story. Triad is another brand to look at as well.

 

[mmiles]

Forgot to mention you can spin the tweeter on the GE Invisa SPS if mounting horizontal.

 

[cdepaola]

I’m a Triad, James, and Origin fan though I do also like GoldenEar.

I’d highly suggest triad as the best value proposition including their InWall sub options. I have a similar setup and am using two inWall Slim 4 Subs (4 ohms each) with a rack amp dsp 700 and they sound excellent.

As stated the JL audio in wall option may be the best but it is very pricy, at about 3k for the 8” version and over 4K for their 10”. Origin Acoustics has a very similar set up to the JL and a slightly better price point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Dawn Gordon]

Plus, Triad will paint the grills to match the paint on your walls.

 

[logan1833]

Forgot to mention you can spin the tweeter on the GE Invisa SPS if mounting horizontal.

Yes, I saw this in this description of the Invisa. Is this a common or uncommon feature on LCR speakers? And is it critical when placing horizontally (i.e., should I only be considering speakers with this feature)?

As stated the JL audio in wall option may be the best but it is very pricy, at about 3k for the 8” version and over 4K for their 10”. Origin Acoustics has a very similar set up to the JL and a slightly better price point.

Alas, I do covet the JL, but they are sadly well outside of my budget. I'll take a look at the Origin Acoustics, but suspect they also might be budget busting.

 

[Soulburner]

Alas, I do covet the JL, but they are sadly well outside of my budget. I'll take a look at the Origin Acoustics, but suspect they also might be budget busting.

Do give a hard look at the HSU I linked. I bet you'd be really glad you didn't blow so much money on boutique speakers and could invest money elsewhere.