[thehalogod]

I currently have a 3082-WH Samsung Slimfit as well as a nearly 4 year old Sony 27'' flat screen crt.


The only thing that bothers me with the Slimfit is the fact that I feel like the TV's refresh rate is slower than the Sony's. Is there a way to increase it?


Because I can notice the buttons while playing Halo 2 have just slightly quicker response times while using the Sony, whereas the Samsung gives me some noticeable lag (even when I'm just using standard definition cables for each)


Any help?

 

[CR_Client]

Uhm...


The refresh rate on the tube itself (60Hz) refers to how many times the gun paints the screen every second. NTSC TV standard is 60Hz, which happens to correlate with the frequency of our Alternating Current.


Your old Sony NTSC TV paints the screen 60 times a second, the same as your Samsung. This can't be changed.


Further, this wouldn't cause button-response "lag" issues in video games.


Take 11 bucks to Best Buy and invest in Component cables for your XBox. Not only will you be able to take advantage of the Progressive scan mode found on almost every XBox game, you'll be doing yourself a favor.

 

[justsc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CR_Client Uhm... The refresh rate on the tube itself (60Hz) refers to how many times the gun paints the screen every second. NTSC TV standard is 60Hz, which happens to correlate with the frequency of our Alternating Current. Your old Sony NTSC TV paints the screen 60 times a second, the same as your Samsung. This can't be changed. Further, this wouldn't cause button-response "lag" issues in video games. Take 11 bucks to Best Buy and invest in Component cables for your XBox. Not only will you be able to take advantage of the Progressive scan mode found on almost every XBox game, you'll be doing yourself a favor.

This is interesting.


The old Sony and the new Samsung are really not the same. The Sony delivered 30 frames per second, at 2 interlaced fields per frame. The Samsung takes in 480i signals, deinterlaces it and converts it to 480p, which paints the screen 60 times per second.


I do agree that performance is not a matter of interlaced or progressice scan though.


I do believe that using component cables is a good idea, regardless of this issue.

 

[Porcupine2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehalogod Because I can notice the buttons while playing Halo 2 have just slightly quicker response times while using the Sony, whereas the Samsung gives me some noticeable lag

I'm very impressed that you also are able to notice this. The world needs more people like you in it.


There is nothing you can do about this problem. Your Sony is an SD set, am I right? All these CRT HDTV sets delay their video output from realtime by 1 field, possibly 2, due to their digital video processing algorithms. I believe it is only 1 field though at least on my Toshiba 30HF85, so you are very skillful to notice it. Someday I'd like to measure the exact amount of video delay in milliseconds but I'm not sure how I'd go about it...


LCD HDTVs are much worse, I believe. They delay their video output by a minimum of 3 frames I think (even with 8 ms response time, most of the delay is not due to the response time issues but the digital video processing).


I can't believe this information is not more commonly known. It should be everywhere and people should be ranting about it, but I've never seen anyone besides myself talk about it. I had to figure all this out for myself experimentally. Now that gamers like yourself are starting to buy HDTVs (for their next-gen systems) I can only hope that this issue starts to become more well-known.


EDIT: Actually, sending a progressive signal through the Component cables on the XBox may remove this problem. It could in theory, but it depends on how the Samsung processes a 480p signal. Maybe you should try it and tell me if it works, I'd be very interested to know. I'd only trust the opinion of a skillful gamer like yourself who was able to naturally notice the 1 field delay to begin with without being told.


That won't work with the PS2 though (few PS2 games can run in Progressive), or the GameCube (all games render in Progressive but stupid Nintendo did not mass-market the component cables necessary for it). It may work on the Dreamcast. It definitely won't work on the older gaming systems they can only render and output 480i.

 

[thehalogod]

I need to send in composite video from my XBOX 1 because I need to capture the video that is being sent from my game to make halo 2 montages.


See: www.thehalogod.com


I am currently practicing for various events around the US that I will be playing Halo 2 at, and so having a TV that displays differently than the ones I be playing on at the MLG events is pretty important to me. But I don't want to buy another SD TV.


This almost makes me want to take the TV back... but you're telling me no HDTV displays the image "instantly." Because that is freaking ridiculous. How can more people not notice that?


Because it's really noticeable, and I'm even using a wired controller so I know it's not that.


----------------------------------------------


Side note:


So am I understanding that playing it in HD mode is faster than playing it in SD mode? By 1 frame?


Because I tried playing on an XBOX 360 in HD and noticed that it seemed a little bit faster than when I played on an XBOX 1 using composite cables.

 

[thehalogod]

One other thing, when will there be an HDTV that displays video instantly instead of some hokey 2 frames later crap!?


I don't think I'll buy an HDTV to game on until they fix this.

 

[CR_Client]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehalogod One other thing, when will there be an HDTV that displays video instantly instead of some hokey 2 frames later crap!? I don't think I'll buy an HDTV to game on until they fix this.

Clearly, based on all of your posts on this site, HDTV is not for you. The technology seems to be beyond your comprehension and doesn't suit your needs.


There have been plenty of posts in other threads about gaming on an HDTV, and none of them have mentioned anything about lag. They also were using component cables.


As was mentioned in another thread you posted about your need to split the video, once you go to Component, progressive scan, you won't have anything output over the composite.


If you're really THAT serious about being a "professional gamer", then you would have taken the time to research these issues BEFORE you bought an HDTV. And if you have the money to drop on an S3082, then you have the 11 bucks to drop on a component cable, and should have the funds available for a conponent splitter and component capture card for your computer. The quality of your demo captures would be that much better if you were capturing them in component anyway.


I won't respond to Porcupine2's comments, either. I can't tell if he's being serious or sarcastic.

 

[Porcupine2]

> I am currently practicing for various events around the US that I will be playing Halo 2 at, and so having a TV that displays differently than the ones I be playing on at the events is pretty important to me. But I don't want to buy another SD TV.


Yup this is a serious issue for competitive top-level gamers. I don't play Halo myself, I play fighting games, but it's critical for those as well.


> This almost makes me want to take the TV back... but you're telling me no HDTV displays the image "instantly." Because that is freaking ridiculous. How can more people not notice that?


Because most people who had HDTVs up until now have been adults or old people who watch movies and things but don't play much games, and definitely not competitively. I am hoping this will change as the new generation of XBox 360 and PS3 owners arrives.


Also even most young gamers are not serious gamers. And not even all serious gamers have the natural abilities and skill to sense these things. It is kind of sad.


> So am I understanding that playing it in HD mode is faster than playing it in SD mode? By 1 frame?


It may be. I only theorize this...I have never tested it because I have never played any game in HD or 480p ED through component on a CRT HDTV before.


> Because I tried playing on an XBOX 360 in HD and noticed that it seemed a little bit faster than when I played on an XBOX 1 using composite cables.


I see.


There's also the possibility that the Samsung CRT HDTVs delay the image by more frames than other brand CRT HDTVs, but I'm pretty sure most of them will delay the image. Maybe you could try the Toshiba 30HF85 (or 30HF66), I think mine only delays by 1 field.


But anyway my recommendation is just to continue to play on your Sony 27" SDTV for now until the technologies finish improving for everything necessary, and become more consistent. That might occur around when the PS3 comes out or the year after...

 

[Porcupine2]

> There have been plenty of posts in other threads about gaming on an HDTV, and none of them have mentioned anything about lag. They also were using component cables.


Most likely they just did not notice. LCD HDTVs lag regardless of whether you use component or not, only CRT HDTVs can potentially display an image in real-time.


> you would have taken the time to research these issues BEFORE you bought an HDTV.


I tried very hard to research this issue, as well as many other issues, before I bought my first HDTV, but no information on this was to be found anywhere. I believe I am one of the first people to be making these statements regarding CRT HDTV lag, which I had to discover myself the hard way, as halogod did.


I blame that on the consumer populace and the world in general. This information should have been known and posted in giant red warning letters in every local store and internet HDTV site.


> should have the funds available for a conponent splitter and component capture card for your computer. The quality of your demo captures would be that much better if you were capturing them in component anyway.


This sounds like an excellent suggestion if halogod has the funds. He will need to make this upgrade eventually anyway, when the PS3 comes out and all games start becoming HD.

 

[justsc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porcupine2 ...I tried very hard to research this issue, as well as many other issues, before I bought my first HDTV, but no information on this was to be found anywhere. I believe I am one of the first people to be making these statements regarding CRT HDTV lag, which I had to discover myself the hard way, as halogod did. I blame that on the consumer populace and the world in general. This information should have been known and posted in giant red warning letters in every local store and internet HDTV site...

Porcupine2,


This would be an excellent topic for a research paper. I do agree that as serious gamers migrate to HDTV, any issues regarding latency will be hotly contested. Take some time and really research this phenominum, and send the results to some of the gamer and HD type publications. What you find may be very valuable to both communities.


Seriously!

 

[CR_Client]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porcupine2 Because most people who had HDTVs up until now have been adults or old people who watch movies and things but don't play much games, and definitely not competitively. I am hoping this will change as the new generation of XBox 360 and PS3 owners arrives. Also even most young gamers are not serious gamers. And not even all serious gamers have the natural abilities and skill to sense these things. It is kind of sad. > So am I understanding that playing it in HD mode is faster than playing it in SD mode? By 1 frame? It may be. I only theorize this...I have never tested it because I have never played any game in HD or 480p ED through component on a CRT HDTV before.

First off, I know at least a dozen people that are over the age of 30 that are gamers, and own HDTVs. In fact, MOST "serious" gamers are over 30, as they are the people that grew up in the age of Atari, and grew up gaming. These are the people that are putting out the money that's driving the sales of both HDTVs and XBOX 360s. The majority of HDTV owners are NOT "old people", they're middle-aged, middle-to-upper class people with money to burn and discerning tastes. There are tons of posts on various AVS forums about gaming on an HDTV, and they all say that with a CRT and the $10 component cable, the experience has never been better.


If you search on the web for "Xbox HD Lag", you'll get some, but very few reports of lag issues over composite, and mostly with DLP and LCD sets, NOT with CRT sets. The cure? Use Component cables, and don't let the TV do any scaling or de-interlacing. Hmm, go figure.


If you have NO experience with playing a Prog. Scan game on a CRT HDTV with component cables, then EVERYTHING you said is completely baseless and without merit --- How can you claim that Samsung or any other manufacturer's TV is not worthy of gaming if you've NEVER gamed on one?


This is among many reasons why I find just about all of your posts specious, at best.

 

[Porcupine2]

> First off, I know at least a dozen people that are over the age of 30 that are gamers, and own HDTVs.


Yeah, and in my lifetime I've played videogames with over a thousand different people who are under 21, what's your point?


I agree that the majority of gamers who own HDTVs until now have been older players. Because they are the ones with the money, as you said. I'm not disagreeing with you. I said that I hope that the coming of XBox 360 and PS3 will start to bring in a new wave of younger HDTV gamers under 21 or so, though unfortunately getting an HDTV will be difficult for many of them.


> In fact, MOST "serious" gamers are over 30, as they are the people that grew up in the age of Atari, and grew up gaming.


No. You have NO idea what a serious gamer is. Ask halogod. I don't think you are a member of the competitive gaming community, as we are.


> These are the people that are putting out the money that's driving the sales of both HDTVs and XBOX 360s.


On this I agree. I maintain that for the most part these are not the serious gamers. Serious gamers are people like halogod.


> The majority of HDTV owners are NOT "old people", they're middle-aged, middle-to-upper class people with money to burn and discerning tastes.


Old means anything above 25 to 30, for truly competitive real gamers. (BTW, I'm a bit "old" too myself, unfortunately).


To be a competitive gamer you need to be famous, your name needs to be known, and it is good if you win respectable tournaments, etc.


> The cure? Use Component cables, and don't let the TV do any scaling or de-interlacing. Hmm, go figure.


I agree.


> How can you claim that Samsung or any other manufacturer's TV is not worthy of gaming if you've NEVER gamed on one?


Halogod says so, not me. I believe his claims, considering I have a Toshiba 30HF85 and it also is not worthy of 480i gaming.

 

[thehalogod]

I've personally tried using both an XBOX 360 running component cables (in the HD mode) and an XBOX 1 using composite cables.


The only difference was the picture quality. The lag still exists. And I find it ridiculous that when the picture is sent from the video source it is not displayed instantly like that of a stand def. TV.


EVEN when I'm using component cables the issue remains... and that is why my TV will go back... it's ridiculous. How can you even expect people to try playing any game on the XBOX 360 competitively when even a HD CRT TV lags?


Ridiculous.


And the claim that most serious gamers are over 30 is also ridiculous. If by serious you mean competitive, I've yet to meet any gamer over the age of 25 at an MLG event. While that may be a relatively small sample size 500+ people I would expect the serious gamers to come to an event like that.

 

[Porcupine2]

That sucks, oh well.


The lag exists because HDTVs do all sorts of re-scaling, de-interlacing, and/or de-combing algorithms to change the incoming data into their native format. Most de-interlacing algorithms need access to "future" information to work decently, and they can only obtain this "future" information by storing the incoming realtime data to computer memory and delaying the image you see by 1 or more fields.


In theory if you input 480p to a CRT HDTV it need not delay the image but that is only if the makers designed the set well, of which there is no guarantee.


XBox 360 through HD I have no idea what it does, or what it causes the TV to do. From what I hear (unconfirmed) the XBox 360 does additional end-stage automatic rescaling of its own, and it could be possible (just conjecture) that the XBox 360 itself delays the image by an additional 1 field compared to an XBox 1.


Have you tried switching the XBox 360 between 720p and 1080i mode? It's possible that one of those settings would actually result in less delay (in 720p your HDTV itself does the re-scaling, in 1080i mode your XBox 360 does the re-scaling).


You could also try XBox 1 using 480p through component on an HDTV, I don't know if it will lag. Probably depends on your TV (it still needs to rescale 480p to 540p).


The only things I know that for sure don't lag are 480i to an SDTV, or 480p to a computer monitor on a Sega Dreamcast via the VGA Box (what I use with my DC).

 

[justsc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porcupine2 ...XBox 360 through HD I have no idea what it does, or what it causes the TV to do. From what I hear (unconfirmed) the XBox 360 does additional end-stage automatic rescaling of its own, and it could be possible (just conjecture) that the XBox 360 itself delays the image by an additional 1 field compared to an XBox 1.

Think about it. If the Xbox does any processing it's before it's displayed - ergo it would never show-up as a delay. A delay can only be noticeable if induced by the display device, or some other device between the Xbox and the display.

Quote:

You could also try XBox 1 using 480p through component on an HDTV, I don't know if it will lag. Probably depends on your TV (it still needs to rescale 480p to 540p).

Not all tvs scale 480p to 540p. I've got a Samsung set that takes in 480p and displays it straight to the screen. Samsung HD crt sets don't do 540p.


This mis(dis)information needs to stop.

 

[Porcupine2]

I said "end-stage" rescaling regarding the XBox 360 for a reason. What I mean is, the Xbox 360 has a built-in digital scaler board, the same as all HDTVs do. It needs to do this to make sure all its games can output in either 720p or 1080i, even though most of the games render natively at only one resolution (720p).


The scaler board in the Xbox 360, if being utilized, is essentially the same thing as an in-between device.


halogod said he is comparing Xbox 1 to XBox 360 when playing the same backwards-compatible game Halo 2. Apparently the Xbox 360 does some contortions the Xbox 1 does not and generates 1 or more frames of lag. If could be due to the scalar board being utilized as an additional stage after the game generated its natural graphics, or maybe something else, who knows.


Regarding the 480p/540p issue, I think you have some nerve trying to tell me to stop spreading disinformation. In an earlier thread you stated that the Sony sets also do 480p/960i, which was then definitively disproven by another user with access to some Sony documentation. You and the other supporters of the "Sony 480p theory" never responded to those documents.


You may be right about your Samsung, you may be wrong, I don't know. I don't own a Samsung so I cannot prove you wrong. However I don't believe what you say is true.

 

[justsc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porcupine2 Regarding the 480p/540p issue, I think you have some nerve trying to tell me to stop spreading disinformation. In an earlier thread you stated that the Sony sets also do 480p/960i, which was then definitively disproven by another user with access to some Sony documentation. You and the other supporters of the "Sony 480p theory" never responded to those documents. You may be right about your Samsung, you may be wrong, I don't know. I don't own a Samsung so I cannot prove you wrong. However I don't believe what you say is true.

I might be right about my own Samsung? I know exactly what my Samsung set does. I talk about those things I know. You, on the other hand, are constantly speculating about all kinds of devices you have no experience with, which is of no help to anyone.


It doesn't take any nerve to point out your disinformation, as there's so much of it to critique. You admittedly know very little of what you are talking about - I refer you to post 18 of this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=655288

 

[Porcupine2]

There's nothing I need to add to my previous post. It doesn't achieve anything if all I do is continually point my finger at you and say you are wrong, while you do the same for me. I only want to politely request that you try to be a little more tolerant of me in these forums.


You ought to realize that I may dislike you just as much as you dislike me, perhaps even moreso. But I feel I put more effort into getting along with you, than you do for me. If you would like that situation to change, and things to get as bad on these forums as they had been a month ago, feel free to continue acting as you have been.

 

[Porcupine2]

Another thing, I currently feel that it is not a hopeless endeavor for me to try to get along with you, justsc. We do agree on some things, and yes we do disagree on others. Is that not acceptable? If we can only agree to disagree from time to time, and accept that, we can get along here.

 

[justsc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Porcupine2 Another thing, I currently feel that it is not a hopeless endeavor for me to try to get along with you, justsc. We do agree on some things, and yes we do disagree on others. Is that not acceptable? If we can only agree to disagree from time to time, and accept that, we can get along here.

Let's give it a shot.


I'm sure neither of us wants to keep this up. I have one request - let's keep our "definitive" advice to those things we actually own or have direct experience with, and be careful to use the word "opinion" on those things we down't own or have such experience with. My primary concern is for those asking these questions - that when they act on our advice and lay down hard-earned cash, that they are getting informed advice. Like I said, this goes for both of us, not just you.


Is that OK with you?


I'd very much like for the animosity to go away.