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Hi, does any one know of a good, but fairly inexpensive external device that will allow me to calibrate color and gamma with HDMI in and outs? I don't need any video upscaling though I wouldn't necessarily mind if that were included. I just need to fine tune my Panasonic plasma that doesn't offer CMS fine tuning. Thanks.
 

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Greetings


The definition of inexpensive is vague. Is it a $10 solution you are looking for or a $4000 solution. Both fit the definition of inexpensive depending on your point of view.


At $4000 is the Lumagen Radiance.


At $1200 is the Lumagen Vision HDP. Does 11 point Gamma grayscale and basic CMS ... Primaries only.


regards
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV /forum/post/15449613


Greetings


The definition of inexpensive is vague. Is it a $10 solution you are looking for or a $4000 solution. Both fit the definition of inexpensive depending on your point of view.


At $4000 is the Lumagen Radiance.


At $1200 is the Lumagen Vision HDP. Does 11 point Gamma grayscale and basic CMS ... Primaries only.


regards

Ouch, yeah I guess by inexpensive I mean perhaps
 

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Greetings


The VP50pro sells for $3500 at retail and is still their flagship unit.


Unfortunately for you ... it is a scaler and not any good for CMS or multipoint Gamma.


A good deal at $400 ... but it still won't help you get what you are looking for.


regards
 

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To the OP: DVDO is in the process of working on a CMS that will be released via firmware for their VP50Pro, however there is no timeline on when it will be available or the exact feature set that will be included. With their track record on firmware releases, I certainly wouldn't buy a Pro in anticipation of getting the CMS functionality if you need that functionality now. As Michael said, your cheapest option at this point would be one of the Lumagen Vision series VPs.
 

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Greetings


color management system


regards
 

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the nearest I've found is the blackmagic HDLink Pro.


Offers full interactive or pre-profiled 3dlut capabilities.

However it doesn't handle 1080/24 (although it seems like it might get implimentd).


It only supports hdsdi input: although blackmagic do an hdmi to hdsdi convertor.


I suspect you'll also need some sort of audio delay facility on your kit.


Next best bet would be an htpc with either a 3rd party calibration system such as cinespace (no overlay correction/ probably no way to apply 3dluts unless someone writes support into mpc orsomething)


Cinespace is quite pricey I think it's around $2000 not including probe.


I was investigating how possible it would be to build a good offboard cms and I couldn't get it cheaper than the hdlink pro .


I think greg Roberts mooted a possible low cost black box solution,
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D /forum/post/16709722


the nearest I've found is the blackmagic HDLink Pro.


Offers full interactive or pre-profiled 3dlut capabilities.

However it doesn't handle 1080/24 (although it seems like it might get implimentd).


It only supports hdsdi input: although blackmagic do an hdmi to hdsdi convertor.


I suspect you'll also need some sort of audio delay facility on your kit.


Next best bet would be an htpc with either a 3rd party calibration system such as cinespace (no overlay correction/ probably no way to apply 3dluts unless someone writes support into mpc orsomething)


Cinespace is quite pricey I think it's around $2000 not including probe.


I was investigating how possible it would be to build a good offboard cms and I couldn't get it cheaper than the hdlink pro .


I think greg Roberts mooted a possible low cost black box solution,

I appears that the HDLink Pro is only $495. Am I reading that right?

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hdlink/
 

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Yep it's cheap as chips.


If the stuck an hdmi or even dvi input on it we'd be laughing.


No real reason that it can't handle 1080p at 23.976, they just haven't implimented it.


I assume it doesn't handle hdcp but it would have to if they add an hdmi input.


I told them they could sell a bundle to the home cinema Market if they made it a little bit more consumer friendly.
 

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How does the CMS work in that card, the documentation on that guy is really nonexistant, and add to that fact that I am mac ignorant, and it's kind of confusing.


I didn't have the chance to dig into any of the card's features in a system that had one, I would liked to have delved into it, but it would have taken me all day and I had other things to do, sadly, so the native primaries stayed where they were...
 

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you mean the hdlink pro chris?


It's not a card it's an offboard cms black box.(it also has some scaling and deinterlacing capabilities along with pulldown removal and insertion)


To use the cms capabilities you access the box via a PC running an app from blackmagic and can interactively adjust RGBHSI curves whilst metering the usual test patterns.


Or you can use a third party profiler and generate compatible 3d and 1d Luts for upload into the hdlink pro. This would be the method I'd prefer to use as I have cinespace at home anyway courtesy of my work.


Of course if the playback apps on my htpc supported 3dlut application I could just write out a 3d out from cinespace and I'd have a setup as accurate as possible short of upgrading the display for a barco dci 2k projector (which bizarrely might actually happen as I may get offered a 2nd hand one that's surplus to requirements)
 

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Retail on the Lumagen XD is now $4995. $4000 gets your supply chain quickly cut off from Sencore - of course, there's always the used market.
 

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Hey Mr. D. Sounds like you know the Black Magic people through your work efforts. Are they showing any interest in the mods you have suggested? If not I think we could generate quite a bit of support here if the benefits were explained. What I am not sure about is the last bit i.e. use a third party profiler to generate compatible 3d and 1d Luts for upload into the hdlink pro. Could that be done remotely somehow or would everyone need the 3rd party profiler and if so is that practical or are there other means individuals could use in their own homes? As I recall GregR did in fact build a CMS box and thought about producing it but ran into things like HDCP issues; I think the rough price was in the $500-$800 range but I believe he abandoned it when JVC announced their processor.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by smyth22 /forum/post/16716943


Hey Mr. D. Sounds like you know the Black Magic people through your work efforts. Are they showing any interest in the mods you have suggested? If not I think we could generate quite a bit of support here if the benefits were explained. What I am not sure about is the last bit i.e. use a third party profiler to generate compatible 3d and 1d Luts for upload into the hdlink pro. Could that be done remotely somehow or would everyone need the 3rd party profiler and if so is that practical or are there other means individuals could use in their own homes? As I recall GregR did in fact build a CMS box and thought about producing it but ran into things like HDCP issues; I think the rough price was in the $500-$800 range but I believe he abandoned it when JVC announced their processor.

I had a brief communication with them and what I could glean from other people working in the industry. If its capable of sorting out 10bit log film scans for display on rec.709 type displays it will easily be capable of taming the sort of issues people are reporting on oversaturated displays.


The profiling capability is something you could use if you had a 3rd party lut building tool. You may even find that building the LUT manually with a decent meter is more accurate .Its probably not something to get overly pre-occupied about. The unit works fine as a manually adjustable CMS from what I can gather (although you obviously need a PC to adjust it with) it also has a couple of user definable settings you can switch between.


I have no idea if blackmagic will impliment 1080p 24 support or an hdmi version ( I doubt the hdmi bit because then they will have to get into hdcp and licensing and all that crap that everyone hates).


Certainly it proves along with Greg's previous ventures into this area that a standalone CMS utilising 3d luts ( essentially RGBHSI multipoint curves) is far from an impossibility.


I can pretty much guarantee that you will need some sort of global audio delay to compensate for processing delay , if its significant enough (seconds rather than milliseconds) this might be a deal breaker in itself
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D /forum/post/16716142


No real reason that it can't handle 1080p at 23.976, they just haven't implimented it.


I assume it doesn't handle hdcp but it would have to if they add an hdmi input.

1080p/24 is gravy so far as I am concerned, but HDCP support is a deal killer.


BTW, Greg Rogers problem with producing a CMS black box was exclusively financial. He just doesn't believe that there is a large enough market to justify the high initial investment required for HDCP licensing and UL laboratory certification.


This issue has been extremely frustrating. GR has a CMS but doesn't want to market it. Lumagen sells one, but at a price that guarantees a niche market only (I don't count the Vision series, whose CMS is profoundly flawed). Lumagen could market a much less expensive calibration-only box if they wanted to, but don't I am sure only because they fear it would cannbalize sales from the uber-expensive Radiance. Anchor Bay is purportedly working on a CMS upgrade to VP50 Pro but there is no indication when, if ever, this will actually be released. Now we learn that Black Magic has a surprisingly inexpensive external CMS solution, but that it is crippled for the consumer market.


I continue to believe that a sub-$1K external 3D CMS with multipoint grayscale/gamma capabilities would be a successful product if someone would only have the vision to bring it to market.
 

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Here is a question,


If you are taking an 8bit per channel signal and outputting an 8bit per channel signal eve if you are working in 10 or 12 bits per channel behind the scenes aren't we going to loose some image fidelity? It might not be alot, but right now every color only has 220 steps from 0% to 100%, once you start manipulating those mappings won't you end up with soemthing like 200 steps or a 10% loss in available colors?


Granted the trade off maybe worth it, but isn't an external HDMI/DVI based CMS a compromise to begin with?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Bailey /forum/post/16718686


Looks like the question is, how are you going to feed the SDI HD inputs on the HDLink Pro? There are no DVI/HDMI input connections.


Though the same company does offer an HDMI to SDI convertor, for the same price as the HDLink Pro. So, now you're up to nearly a grand.

However, the converter won't help if the signal path doesn't support HDCP.
 
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