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As far as i am concerned, if7200 give a very bright picture and vivid color but seem to have problem with black level. On the other hand, marantz s2 seem to have a good black level but a little bit too dim. So what is the best combination between if7200 with fire hawk or marantz s2 with silver star? which one is better in term of both brightness and black level?
 

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I think you put your finger on it. I saw both at CES last year and preferred the Infocus on the Firehawk for the greater image "punch" and sufficient lumens for the larger screen. I'm going to take a hard look at the 7205 this year as my possible replacement projector. Not sure how the Silver Star would affect the black level of the Marantz, that is something you'll want to check out.


There's also that matter of a $4-5K difference in price.
 

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Since I have decent light control I am very happy with the S2 and a 110" Firehawk. It is not too dim, IMHO. And those blacks are awesome...

_____

Axel
 

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Don't under-estimate the blacks. That's probably the most important part of the viewing experience. Think about how many movies are mostly dark, moody scenes. Do you want to loose detail in all those scenes?


Once you see a PJ with state-of-the-art blacks, everything else looks kinda' dull. And I agree, the S2 is not a dim PJ by any means.
 

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I think that each company has a philosophy on how their projectors should look. Marantz probably decided they wanted excellent blacks and in order to do that they had to sacrifcie some light output. Infocus probably wanted a nice bright picture and had to sacrifice some on their blacks. I think every company decides on how they want their picture to look and its up to us to decide which philosophy suits us best.
 

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If you want deep blacks from the 7200, look at the Greyhawk, not the Firehawk. The 1.3 gain on the Firehawk will only serve to lighten the level of black, especially if you are going with a smaller than 100" screen (this comes directly from my conversations with Stewart re: the 7200 at CEDIA).


I would say that the Marantz would be a better match for the Firehawk, but before we get too far into this, what size screen are you contemplating?


Keep in mind, the higher the gain, the greater the image brightness, and the less deep the blacks. It's possible that if you get a 7200 with a low gain screen or a Marantz with a very high gain screen that you'll end up with about the same black level anyway. It's simple cause and effect.


JOHN


P.S. I agree that black level is an important part of the picture equation, but so is brightness. As I always stress, its a matter of personal preference - if you prefer brightness over black level it doesn't make you "wrong," or vice versa. Wouldn't it be great if we could have both?
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Daniel Hutnicki
I think that each company has a philosophy on how their projectors should look. Marantz probably decided they wanted excellent blacks and in order to do that they had to sacrifcie some light output. Infocus probably wanted a nice bright picture and had to sacrifice some on their blacks. I think every company decides on how they want their picture to look and its up to us to decide which philosophy suits us best.
I couldn't have said it better myself!


Buy the one that looks best to you!


JOHN
 

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I agree with Daniel and John
 

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Another thing to consider is the S2 and a StudioTek 130. This is still a reference screen material, and if your surroundings support it (dark walls and particularly a dark ceiling), is a real eye opener when compared to a gray screen. But you must have good light control.


Dan
 

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While I recognize the the discussion dark blacks vs Brightness. And the idea that manufacturers develope their projectors to certain viewing standards. I can't help but read into what people are posting; in that by going with an IF 7200 the individual has made some form of comprimise.


I have seen all of these projectors discussed on the forums from various vendors. And all of them bar none are subject to various presentation issues depending on the screen, and ambient lighting.


And all of these issues are somewhat moot when pairing up the right projector to the screen. Given the enormous amount of settings one can manipulate. It would seem that the brighter the projector the better the control one would have over things like contrast and blacks.


I would surmise that the issues out-standing are control of the aspect ratios for presentation, and the ability to project onto various size screens. And wouldn't this be the most critical conclusion one would need to make when looking at these products..how big is the screen they want. And how much light control is available to the environment.


Am I far off in this assessment?


Requis
 

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Kind of...


At Marantz, our goal was to design a PJ that would make CRT lovers happy. This means good blacks. Contrast ratio is the critical element. There are many design compromises a manufacturer has to make to achieve a certain goal. In our case, we gave up a few lumens for better contrast ratio. This is all in the Minolta designed optical path. We gave up some installation flexibility (the ability to have the PJ mounted way above a screen, for example) for a cleaner and more efficient optical path. All of it paid off in the best ultimate black level in the industry. The other side of that coin is very low IRE stuff (dark scenes) are still visible and there is good control over them. This is where your room/screen comes into play. This shouldn't be underestimated either, as it is perhaps as important as the room "sound" is for audio.


Dan
 

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A 7200 on a low gain screen will not be the same as the S2 on a high gain screen; the S2 has almost double the 7200's actual CR.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan Miller
Kind of...


At Marantz, our goal was to design a PJ that would make CRT lovers happy. This means good blacks. Contrast ratio is the critical element. There are many design compromises a manufacturer has to make to achieve a certain goal. In our case, we gave up a few lumens for better contrast ratio. This is all in the Minolta designed optical path. We gave up some installation flexibility (the ability to have the PJ mounted way above a screen, for example) for a cleaner and more efficient optical path. All of it paid off in the best ultimate black level in the industry. The other side of that coin is very low IRE stuff (dark scenes) are still visible and there is good control over them. This is where your room/screen comes into play. This shouldn't be underestimated either, as it is perhaps as important as the room "sound" is for audio.


Dan
Dan, how much improvement in the Marantz would one get by using a DVI output from a DVD player (such as the Bravo) into the DVI input of the Marantz, as opposed to using component video from a high quality DVD player such as the Samsung HD 1000?
 

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DVI will remove a whole stage of D/A and A/D. The results are absolutely visible. However, you might not like what you see. Remember, we are still dealing with moderately low bitrate MPEG, designed to be decoded as NTSC (or PAL). Opening another window to get closer to the source can possibly show artifacts that additional processing might "cover". Your call.


DM
 

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Dan,


Provided I have a totally dark HT room, can the S2 (or, now the S3) successfully light up a 110" - 120" (diagonal) screen? If it can, which screen would you recommend for that screen size: a Firehawk or a Studiotek 130?


What screen size would be considered too big for the S2/S3?


Does anyone know if the IF7200 can light up this size screen?


Thanks for the input.
 

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Another factor to consider is what type of programming will you be watching most on your projector. Some consider a front projector just a big television - to watch movies, sports, HD programming.... Others may use a projector in the more traditional way of watching mostly movies.


I use my projector, (DLP), for movies only. I have a television for the other stuff. I also have a light controlled theater.


So for my application and taste, I much prefer black level over brightness. I have seen the Marantz S2 and to me the picture looks fantastic. In my opinion it is as close to a CRT image as any digital projector available.


However, if you were planning to use it like a "television", I understand why you might like a little more brightness.


To each his own. Reed.
 

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Marantz dim?

StudioTek 1.3, DVI output from HTPC Radeon equipped, 96" wide screen, calibrated (with Colorfacts CF-6000) conditions: all values refer to the quantities reported by Runco CSMS method (even if not exactly the same).

http://space.virgilio.it/andreamanut...MS%20cal_b.jpg



Don't want to add any fire as already happened elsewhere, but these are values for black level, calibrated conditions, 96" wide StudioTek 1.3 screen.


http://space.virgilio.it/andreamanut...20fL%20rid.jpg



Will you describe the following shot as dim?


Marantz S2 right above, InFocus 7200 left below. Actual shot with Sony DSC-F707 5 megapixel digital camera (not a perfect eye, as I already stated elsewhere): still a shot and not a real moving image, but just to give an idea... Medium reflectance ambient, no lights, white walls with images on the walls, dark furniture.


http://space.virgilio.it/andreamanut...DSC08324_b.JPG


Only to contribute to the discussion...


P.S. I'm not affiliated in any way to Marantz, InFocus or whoever. This is an extract from a 6 DLPs shoot out published on www.htprojectors.com.
 

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The 12S2 is still my personal benchmark projector, but I have not seen the newer HD2+ projectors yet.


There is just something in the way the S2 handles the gamma thru out the IRE scale. Darks are smooth, white highlights are smooth, and everything in between is smooth.


I own the HT1000 because I'm on a budget, and while I think the blacks and low IRE gamma on the HT1000 is very close to the S2, the HT1000 does not come as close to the S2 at handling the 90-100 IRE range gamma. If I dial back the HT1000 contrast from a factory 128 setting to 115, I get back a good deal of discrimination in the 96-100 IRE range, but it is still a little rough looking as compared to the S2.


So, when I think about the 7200 in comparison, it's a little more of the same. The upper mid and high IRE ranges look rougher to me, and we all admit the low IRE gamma is superior on the S2.


With the HT1000 I feel I have my dark needs in check. But when I think of moving up to a higher resolution DLP, the S2 or better grade projector seems the only choice worthy of the extra cabbage. The 7200 just feels as harsh or more so than the HT1000 at rendering the upper IRE scale.


These are strictly my esthetic observations. BTW, the image above of the 7200 and S2 does represent my own observations very well, although I remember the S2 having just a bit more punch, but still nice and smooth.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytehoven



These are strictly my esthetic observations. BTW, the image above of the 7200 and S2 does represent my own observations very well, although I remember the S2 having just a bit more punch, but still nice and smooth.


Bytehoven,

very focused observations.

I'm sure that the image can't represent any behavior: during the shoot out, I've seen variations (from the same 2 pjs) even within the same DVD... Sometimes you wonder if this continuous chase will ever have an end!
 

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Andrea:

Was the InFocus in the high or low lamp setting for your Ft Lambert's measurement?
 
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