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Discussion Starter #1
Hey everyone, I'm a new member to the forums but after reading all I could I still have a few questions. I won't get into the amount of time I spend playing halo3 and tekken competitively, but I will however say it's enough that I'm about to throw my samsung 4665f out the window along with the sharp 32 inch set I have currently in my dorm. The input lag is, while faintly noticeable, absolutely unbearable.


After reading into the problem I feel I have a decent grasp, but was left baffled after my latest venture to best buy. When all the TVs were playing the same demo feed, I was able to notice a difference in scene change between the panasonic 85u that would occur apprx. 1/4 second before the samsung 4665f by its side. This is obviously quite a significant difference. However, the samsung plasma set that was on the opposite side of the panasonic seemed to be just as far behind. This entire time, I've been under the impression that the difference in technology alone Plasma VS. LCD has been what lowers the input lag in plasmas compared to LCDs.

This raises my big question. Which manufactures are most closely associated with minimal lag? With increasingly more powerful sets (Kuro, for example) do you tend to see a higher measure of lag because of the added image processing / or do you see a lower lag because of the quality of the processor? Has there been any sort of trend of increasing or decreasing lag over the years among plasmas that would lead you to believe the 9G Kuros will be even lower than the years prior, or will the gains in display quality only create a worse situation for serious gamers?
 

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i'm in the same boat as you...have a samsung DLP and the lag is anywhere from 45ms-55ms and its what is driving me to get a new tv...i'm looking at the Panasonic TH-50PZ85U right now...


...but i have the same question...what brands or types of sets have the least input lag?!
 

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while I can't answer your question, most the plamas i've seen have a game mode to reduce delay. when comparing 2 sets make sure they both have this on
 

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Samsung DLPs are known to be the worst offenders for input lag, I wouldn't even consider buying one of the those sets if I was planning to use it for gaming. All digital displays (Plasma, LCD, DLP, LCOS etc.) lag to some degree compared to an analog CRT monitor. I would really like to see professional reviewers figure out a way to measure the input lag on the TVs they are reviewing. Gaming is a very big part of HDTV these days and gamers deserve to know if a TV they are spending thousands of dollars on is going to get them fragged to death because it lags like a f&^)ing dial-up connection.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veri7as /forum/post/13642842


i'm in the same boat as you...have a samsung DLP and the lag is anywhere from 45ms-55ms and its what is driving me to get a new tv...i'm looking at the Panasonic TH-50PZ85U right now...


...but i have the same question...what brands or types of sets have the least input lag?!

I don't know about brands but plasmas are faster then LCDs.
 

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This is a very old thread, but it can get you started in the right direction.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=558125


Unfortunately I've never really found a site or forum where people have objectively measured input lag for lots of different TVs. It's just not a well-understood issue and frankly most people don't even know there is such a thing.


For what little it's worth, I went from a Dell 2405FPW computer monitor (one of the worst offenders in input lag history) to a Panny TH-42PZ700U and the difference is like night and day. I can even play Gradius V now, something that was previously impossible for me. However I am not very good at fighting games nor do I play them very much so I can't really tell you if Soul Calibur II and III are any better for me, I still suck at them even if there is less input lag now than before.
 

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I used to game on a Mistubishi rear projector and it had a little bit of lag that was noticable when playing guitar hero. I switched to a panasonic plasma over the weekend and am having no issues whatsoever with input lag. From what I recall, plasmas have less lag than lcds which have less lag than dlps. The lag is related to the amount of processing that goes on to clean up the image before presenting it on screen. If the tv has a game mode which turns this processing off, then I would do that before trying out a set. Most stores will let you bring in your game system and try it out against one of their floor models. Just pick an off time when they aren't so busy and they will help you out.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
 hdtvlag.googlepages.kom/home (please replace the "k" in .kom with a "c")


Thanks for the help so far guys. I know plasmas are supposed to lag less than LCDs and LCDs less than DLP, and I know game mode lowers total information required to process. I found the link above in your post Faceless Rebel and it has been very helpful thus far. The only thing is I wish it would have tested more high end models



Another question: I keep hearing people say that using a VGA connection will reduce lag over component and HDMI, but I can't for the life of me seem to find an explanation as to why. Is there any truth to this (IE - any sort of tests like the one in the link above comparing VGA and alternate inputs). I understand how it may help when using a Kuro 5080 or another TV with an obscure resolution (768p??) but other than that I'm dumbfounded. Also, is it assumed that most televisions' processors are more competent than, say, an Xbox 360's... meaning if a games actual resolution is 720p and I'm playing on a 1080p screen would it be best to output the game in 720p and let the TV scale it to 1080p, or should I set the system to output 1080p and rely on the system to convert from 720p to 1080p? (regarding lag, not image quality, of course)
 

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I've heard a few times that the Panasonic plasmas are very good in terms of having low input lag, based on different people's impressions (though I haven't seen any hard numbers to back that up). And this year's models have a Game Mode to make things even faster, which previous models didn't.

Quote:
Also, is it assumed that most televisions' processors are more competent than, say, an Xbox 360's... meaning if a games actual resolution is 720p and I'm playing on a 1080p screen would it be best to output the game in 720p and let the TV scale it to 1080p, or should I set the system to output 1080p and rely on the system to convert from 720p to 1080p?

I wouldn't make that assumption. I'd venture to guess that in terms of speed, the 360's scaler is probably better, since most TV manufacturers aren't particularly concerned about speed (if they were, input lag wouldn't be such a widespread problem in the first place), whereas that's going to be probably the foremost concern for a console manufacturer. Also, many TVs have lousy scalers in terms of quality. Upscaling sources typically do a better job than TVs.
 

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being a big guitar hero player, i can not have any lag whatsoever...


my parents panasonic 50px60u (the 720p model) has zero lag if plugged directly in via composite cables (on ps2)


running xbox360 via hdmi also has no lag.
 

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You should take your game console into a store and try it out on the TVs they have on display.
 

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Input lag is worst when scaling 480i so if you bring a last-gen console or a Wii that is the best way to see the worst-case scenario. Most TVs which have bad input lag in 480i will often have much less input lag in 720p or 1080i/p.
 

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Well, OK. So I tried the laptop to S-video test on that hdtvlag.googlepages.com/home site and unfortunately I think I did something wrong. Unless scalers in HDTVs have magically become instantaneous, there is something wrong with the way I conducted this test. The laptop is plugged into the front S-video input on my Panny TH-42PZ700U, and well, here is the (likely incorrect) result. I don't know how to make the test work correctly.


 

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Faceless Rebel,


There may not be anything wrong with your test at all:


A) The Pannies are really fast at scaling and deinterlacing (BOTH of which it has to do over S-video).


B) There's only 30 frames per second being sent, so if your Panny is fast enough to show each frame before the next frame comes in most of the time, it's going to be in sync with the other display, even if it were marginally slower (which, btw, means that there's a point where input lag stops mattering at all).


However, there's also a possibility that the notebook's LCD itself has some lag. If you want to test against a definitely lagless display, get an S-video splitter from Radio Shack or somewhere, and split the signal between the Panny and an SDTV CRT, if you have one.
 

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Oh, some more tips:


Take at least ten pictures of the timer running, and average the difference.


Also, if it's difficult for you to get an SDTV CRT next to the plasma to test them at the same time, you can first test your notebook's LCD against a CRT to find out if your notebook LCD has any lag, and then compare the notebook LCD against the plasma.
 

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My god, faceless rebel, you should have taken into account that the LCD screen of your laptop has indeed some lag because of its nature



Comparison must be done with a CRT monitor at the highest frequenzy available.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daviii /forum/post/13663344


My god, faceless rebel, you should have taken into account that the LCD screen of your laptop has indeed some lag because of its nature



Comparison must be done with a CRT monitor at the highest frequenzy available.

^^ This is true. I used a timer in Clone mode to determine lag on my LCD, Ill have to try it with my Pio 5080.


Sony FW900 CRT on the left, NEC 20WMGX2 LCD on the right (33ms lag):
 

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Daviii:
Quote:
Comparison must be done with a CRT monitor at the highest frequenzy available.

Disagree. A high-frequency CRT monitor isn't a fair comparison to an HDTV when figuring out how much lag there is. The monitor is likely to show the timer ahead just because it gets more frames per second than the TV, rather than because of actual lag.


What RogerMo wants to know is, how much lag will the HDTV introduce into his console gaming. For that, the relevant comparison is to a standard-definition CRT television. The ideal test would be to split the same 480i S-video or composite signal between the HDTV and the CRT, and photograph them side by side.
 

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Yea I didnt catch the frequency part of his comment, in my test above I was using Clone mode with both monitors at 60hz. (you cant run differant refresh rates per monitor during a clone anyhow).
 
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