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And btw, there's a good chance that your notebook LCD doesn't have any lag to speak of, and that the Panny, therefore, is effectively lagless as well. Built-in notebook LCDs can be quite a bit faster than your typical external LCD monitor.


In the googlepages hdtv lag tests that you linked to, the guy starts by testing his notebook LCD against a CRT TV. Look here: http://hdtvlag.googlepages.com/ourtest


As you can see, the test confirms that his notebook screen has no lag (or at least so little that it doesn't show up in the measurement), making it suitable as a baseline to test against the different HDTVs.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathesar /forum/post/13663645


^^ This is true. I used a timer in Clone mode to determine lag on my LCD, Ill have to try it with my Pio 5080.


Sony FW900 CRT on the left, NEC 20WMGX2 LCD on the right (33ms lag):

YES YES YES please let us know the results Mathesar, these are the kind of test we've been waiting for!



Many thanks!
 

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I just purchased the TH-50PZ85U
. The main use for the plasma is gaming on the 360. My biggest concern when purchasing a display was to eliminate any lag in the video being displayed. From what I've read so far Plasmas have the least amount of lag.


I am concerned about burn in (gaming) and the amount of glare (lots of sun light in the room).


Why did I choose this Panisonic? Well we have the 110 inch version at work and I love it(No, you can't come play Halo 3 on it). I purchased a Pani for my Mother and love it. The other was the positive reviews here on the board. Pani seems to have it right with the plasmas.


Other displays I considered are the Philips 47PFL7403D/27 and Samsung LN46A550. The main reason I didn't get these displays is that they are LCD (video lag). Other reasons: Philips is selling off its LCD line which didn't make me any more comfortable buying their newest unreviewed untested displays. The philips has an edge with the 2ms response but by all accounts the Samsung is a superior picture and build quality.

Maybe I'm missing it but there should be a sticky in the LCD and plasma for best gaming display. I would love a serious in depth conversation regarding this. Something I should note is I always ask the top ranked people in a game what display they have. It is all over the place with many playing on 8ms Westinghouse and Vizio displays.


Currently I play on a PT-AX100u Panisonic projector. Its great on a 110 inch widescreen but I'm looking for something sharper. I'm also not interested in replacing bulbs every year or so. I'll keep it but use it for what its made for, movies.


I'm by no means an expert so please be kind when correcting any errors I've made. Hell, I'd be grateful to anyone who proves me wrong and points me in the proper direction. My goal is only to find the best gaming display in the 47-50 inch range.
 

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Discussion Starter #24

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Deuce /forum/post/13663791


Daviii:


Disagree. A high-frequency CRT monitor isn't a fair comparison to an HDTV when figuring out how much lag there is. The monitor is likely to show the timer ahead just because it gets more frames per second than the TV, rather than because of actual lag.

I'll agree with you on that. But in practice, because of the blurred final digit on the Plasma screen counter being "stuck in limbo", after many trials you could gain a very accurate test that would exclude possible LCD lag and replace it with a potentially less troublesome variable. No?


Faceless Rebel, Wow. That's a truly impressive picture you have there and an even more impressive set within it. I can't tell you how helpful that is as I'm trying to weigh the alleged lower phosphorus trails of the Kuro (am I correct in thinking this?) against the benefits of the Panasonic. Mathesar, another helpful picture and it seems you've found a better clock as well. My favorite part is the Virtually Jenna icon on your desktop though lmao
 

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Well unfortunately when outputting PC to my 5080 (HDMI) the TV disables a lot of user adjustments and I only have access to Standard or User video modes.. I couldn't enable the most important "Game Control Pref" setting (found under the Option setting from the home menu) which reduces input lag when playing PS3 / 360 / Wii etc. When using PC this Option selection is missing from the home menu altogether.. so my results arent what you'll experiance with gaming consoles but rather a worst case scenario instead.


I ran the test with the 5080 set at its native resolution and refresh, and had the CRT cloned (same res and refresh)


I took several shots and the average lag seems to be in the high 20's / low 30's but keep in mind this is with Game control pref DISABLED:


Worst lag recorded from the several shots = 49ms:



Least amount of lag = 12ms:




I know for a fact enabling Game mode reduces lag because I can feel the difference when toggling it off / on while playing racing games such as Forza 2. This is my first plasma and ive been gaming on CRT's for years, I can honestly tell you as long as game mode is enabled you wont have any problems with input lag, at least not on the 5080.


On another note PC looks BEAUTIFUL on the 5080



P.S. This is the option thats missing when using PC:

 

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Discussion Starter #26
Mathesar, I'm pretty sure I'm your new number one fan. I can't tell you how helpful you've been and I greatly appreciate the time you've spent to come up with this information. So is game mode only able to be toggled on/off when using an HDMI input? I keep hearing to get a VGA input for my 360 to lower the lag (probably negligible) but based off your words I think I'll be skipping that step. Thanks again.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerMo /forum/post/13668679


Mathesar, I'm pretty sure I'm your new number one fan. I can't tell you how helpful you've been and I greatly appreciate the time you've spent to come up with this information. So is game mode only able to be toggled on/off when using an HDMI input? I keep hearing to get a VGA input for my 360 to lower the lag (probably negligible) but based off your words I think I'll be skipping that step. Thanks again.

Ack I goofed on that one, the Game control pref mode is accessible when using Component as well, I just tested it with my Wii before posting so you dont have to be using HDMI to use it. I've edited my post accordingly.


I don't think using VGA would help lag issues in fact it will just make it worse from the whole analog to digital conversion ..plus Game mode isn't accessible when using VGA (at least on the 5080)


Ive tried VGA with my PC and 360 and I could actually feel the input lag when moving the mouse pointer around, also the picture quality wasnt quite as sharp with 360 or PC compared to using HDMI.
 

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Well, OK. I'm still using the timecode thing but it would appear as if I would get more accurate results with this VSWPro thing that Mathesar is using.


Anyways, the laptop is now outputting simultaneously to an old Hitachi 21" CRT computer monitor I've got sitting in a corner gathering dust via VGA D-sub and to the Panny via S-video. The CRT was set to 85hz refresh rate, with dual-display clone at 1024x768 resolution. I don't have a CRT SDTV nor do I have an S-video output splitter, so this is as good as it will get except for the fact that I would like to try this VSWPro thing. I'll Google for it, but first, here is a result with the CRT monitor and the TV.




This is the worst case picture I could get, many times the TV and the monitor were showing exactly the same thing. I think VSWPro will help me get a much more accurate result than this timecode video.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Deuce /forum/post/13663791



What RogerMo wants to know is, how much lag will the HDTV introduce into his console gaming. For that, the relevant comparison is to a standard-definition CRT television. The ideal test would be to split the same 480i S-video or composite signal between the HDTV and the CRT, and photograph them side by side.


Didn't someone say Any HDTV scaling 480i content will cause it extra lag than it would scaling 720/1080i content?


I'd do that test if I knew it would be accurate.
 

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Yes, scaling 480i is always inherently slower than scaling 720p or 1080i because it requires both a deinterlacing step and a scaling step. 720p requires only scaling, and 1080i requires only deinterlacing on a 1080p set. Anyways, here is what I got with VSWPro, same setup as before.


Worst case = ~30ms




The best case I found was ~20ms. All the shots I took were between 20-30ms, so the Panny is consistent in the amount of input lag it introduces.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfer /forum/post/13669122


Didn't someone say Any HDTV scaling 480i content will cause it extra lag than it would scaling 720/1080i content?


I'd do that test if I knew it would be accurate.

Look at Faceless Rebel's posts. He's using S-video for the Panny plasma - in other words, 480i. This is exactly the test you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faceless Rebel /forum/post/0


This is the worst case picture I could get, many times the TV and the monitor were showing exactly the same thing.

As long as the plasma is in sync most of the time, it doesn't really need to get any faster, imo. That means that most of the time, when a frame is received in the signal, the plasma is processing and displaying the frame in time for its next screen refresh. As long as that happens, it doesn't really matter if it gets any faster.


Also, your CRT's 85Hz refresh rate, rather than input lag, may explain why it is occasionally ahead of the plasma. It could just be refreshing the screen first in some cases because it refreshes more times per second.


By the way, one other point of advice regarding these measurements: The exact number difference shown by the timer doesn't matter much. What actually matters is the number of frames that the TV is lagging, on average. The timer difference, if there is any, will tend to roughly differ by multiples of 30, since there is roughly 30 ms between each frame. If the timers show no difference, then the TV isn't behind at all at that moment. If the difference is ~30 ms, then the TV is behind one frame. If it's ~60 ms, then it's behind 2 frames.


From the looks of things, the Panny's display appears to be in sync with the signal nearly all the time, even in 480i! It looks to me we've identified the definitive HDTV for solving the input lag problem! I think we ought to start getting the word out to all the frustrated gamers out there searching for a perfect solution. Panny deserves some business for this, imo.
 

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Btw, the 2008 Panasonics have a Game Mode to speed things up even more, which the 2007 Panny tested in this thread lacks. I'd be very interested in seeing the performance with one of those.


And Faceless Rebel, I'd like to personally thank you for running these tests. I've been waiting for ages for somebody to produce input lag numbers for the Panasonic plasmas! For reasons that I can't fathom, everyone else was only interested in testing freaking LCDs.
 

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I wouldn't get too excited just yet.



Sample size N=1. We need more data points. There may still be undetected flaws in my testing methodology that only further testing may reveal. Some other people with Panny plasmas should run the same test and see what results they get. Especially other models in the 2007 and 2008 years.
 

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this is sweet!! has this ever been done before do you guys know?...i wish reviewers would do this and mention it in their reviews...keep up the good work!!!!!!
 

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I don't have a CRT screen in the house at all, so I cannot perform the above test. However, gaming is important to me, and I have been playing a lot of Guitar Hero (360), Rock Band (PS3) and Soul Calibre (xbox)... and any lag is very noticeable, especially with the drums (since its a short, sharp sound, you can hear when its off).


On my Panasonic 50PY700 plasma, connected to 360 via component, and PS3 via HDMI i have them calibrated for 0ms lag.


Of course, this is unlikely to mean there is truely 0 lag, but I can definitely notice anything about 10ms (my old TV was a Sony Super Fine Pitch HD CRT), and this PDP does not have anything like that amount of lag.


Note: PY700 is not a typo, its the asian version of the PZ700, albeit closer to the PZ77 with 10k:1 CR, 3 HDMI, PC input, and anti-glare.
 

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I play Halo 3 daily on my PZ700. While I don't notice lag most of the time, I specifically notice it while sniping, thus making it rather difficult to hit someone. If you're wanting to play Halo 3 at the most competitive level, you're probably going to need a basic CRT. For me, I just deal with the lag during my rare sniping adventures, but my hardcore friend only plays H3 on his 23" CRT even though he owns a 720p plasma. I'm pretty sure most, if not all, the very top players use CRTs as well. He's also started using directional headphones to hear footsteps....lol.
 

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Discussion Starter #39

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambone /forum/post/13671123


I know that all of the gaming leagues use CRT's so that should tell you something.

Nope. MLG uses Viewsonic LCDs as their displays in tournaments, for this season at least. They're 3:4 so it doesn't distort your aim as much as a 16:9 screen does (overcompensates by making horizontal aiming much more sensitive than vertical). And jtbyrd, the headphones are just necessary
 

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Quote:
I wouldn't get too excited just yet.


Sample size N=1. We need more data points. There may still be undetected flaws in my testing methodology that only further testing may reveal.

These tests tend to be pretty consistent from what I've seen. If anything, you stacked the deck against the TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veri7as /forum/post/0


this is sweet!! has this ever been done before do you guys know?...i wish reviewers would do this and mention it in their reviews...keep up the good work!!!!!!

It's only been very rarely done by individual users, and reported on forums like this one (I tested my 3-year-old Samsung DLP to have around ~50 ms lag, or on average 2 frames behind in a 30 fps game, or 4 at 60 fps, even when displaying 720p, it's native resolution! In other words, the Panny plasma can deinterlace and scale at least twice as fast as my POS TV can simply display the image).


And yes, it urks me to no end that no reviewers ever mention this or test it in their reviews, especially when you consider that they spend a day or two testing one TV. It's quite easy and fast with the equipment, and they have plenty of the right equipment. The only one who does it at all, to my knowledge, is behardware.com, and that's only on computer LCDs, and even they aren't nearly consistent with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtbyrd /forum/post/0


I play Halo 3 daily on my PZ700. While I don't notice lag most of the time, I specifically notice it while sniping, thus making it rather difficult to hit someone.

Keep in mind, with anecdotal evidence like this, that there can be other factors at work too besides input lag. Like, for instance, perhaps the 360 simply renders more smoothly at the lower resolution that CRT TVs use. Also, I think a smaller screen itself can be a performance advantage in these games sometimes, because it lets you take in more of the action at once without having to move your eyes, and you feel "more in control" of things. And, as RogerMo mentions above, I think that the 4:3 screen may make aiming easier in some games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambone /forum/post/0


I know that all of the gaming leagues use CRT's so that should tell you something.

Yeah, but for these PC gaming leagues, CRTs have more advantages than just gaming lag. For one, they can have faster refresh rates than 60Hz, allowing for more FPS, and PC games can support that.
 
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