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Discussion Starter #1
<b>Input Lag</b><br><br>
What is Input lag?<br>
Input lag is a delay from the moment your output device (PC, Game console, DVD, etc.) sends an image to your TV to when it is finally displayed on your screen to see.<br>
more info can be found here <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag</a><br><br>
It is generally accepted that ALL display devices that are digitally based, LCD, Plasma, DLP, LCD projectors, anything thats not CRT based Have input lag, not to be confused with pixel lag which manufactures often advertise.<br>
ONLY CRT displays due to their purely analog nature are Lag free analog signal goes in analog signal is displayed.<br><br>
Digital Displays must convert any NON-digital signal (everything except HDMI and DVI are analog) into a digital signal to be processed and displayed, ALL LCD's even PC LCD's suffer from this delay. PC LCD's that are manufactured for gaming and general use primarily tend to be the fastest, offering near CRT speed of Display. many however can lag just as much if not even more than some HDTV LCD's. This is why using a CRT for these test is so important to insure that your baseline display is truly lag free. Using another LCD even a fast one can make a TV's input lag results appear to be LOWER (faster response) than it Really is. how much lower will depend on the LCD monitors lag (the fastest LCD's have been tested at 2-8 milliseconds with the average LCD monitor around 16ms witch is a whole frame delay, many LCD monitors can have lag in excess of 30ms (2+ frames delayed)<br>
that being said, most LCD PC monitor have low input lag because they are cheap and cheap means they are TN based (Twisted Nematic) most TN monitors do not use RTC or Overdrive and if they do they are not a good display to use as a control for these tests unless you can disable this feature in its menus (most newer PC monitors will allow this so check for it if your monitor has Overdrive mode)<br><br><b>Does this lag Matter to me?</b><br><br>
Input lag matters to many HDTV users, Mainly Gamers that like to play fast twitch FPS games, Fighting games (street fighter style), Music games (guitar hero/rock band) any game where timing is important. It can also effect Normal TV users that never play games and watch a lot of movies on their TV, depending on your setup. If you route all sound into your TV and do not have a surround receiver you are unlikely to see lip sync problems however, if you do use a Surround Receiver and it does not have HDMI or you are not using HDMI into the Receiver you may notice that the lip sync on your BD/DVD's is every so slightly off due to the sound output from your DVD player being plugged directly into the Receiver and is being played back when it is supposed to be played back. If you do see that happen in this type of situation it is likely you HDTV is DELAYING the video signal so much that you can notice it visually even in a movie<br><br>
Generally most People cannot see or feel a difference of less than 30ms roughly 2 frames, some say they can but they are the rare few and likely younger people<br><br>
3 frames delayed seems to be a Grey area where some people can notice it and others cannot, if you can notice this much delay you can often adapt to it and become used to it but it can very much still impact your gaming performance in games played online most notably FPS games due to the need for leading moving targets in the game etc.<br><br>
4+ frames delayed is too much delay and should be readily noticeable to just about anyone if they took the time to notice it and is very detrimental to game play<br><br>
For a visual example of how this effects your game play in FPS games here is a video of a guy playing counterstrike on a Sony EX5 (EX500 in the US)<br><br>
<br><br><b>The purpose of this thread is to Test your HDTV for Input lag VS a CRT display or a fast LCD monitor that has been tested by someone or yourself google for reviews and report back the results with pictures as proof of the results</b><br><br><i><b>These tests can never be more accurate than 1 Frame (16ms) and will never be completely accurate as there are many variables when doing these tests including but not limited to, your camera and its settings, your video card and its drivers/settings. LCD blur getting in the way of Clear readings etc. Due to this I will be posting summarized results in this Post of each TV tested and the Measurements will be in Frame Delay with one frame equaling 16ms.<br></b></i><br><br><b>How do I test my TV for input lag?</b><br>
First you need a PC with a video card that has dual outputs<br><br>
hook up the TV and CRT monitor to your PC's outputs<br><br>
Set your video card to output in "Clone mode" so the same image is displayed on both screens at the same time<br><br>
Get a Digital camera with a high ISO setting (ISO 800 is often the best setting) If it has a shutter delay option set it to 1/60 so they CRT and LCD will both be clear to see in every picture, if this is not set the CRT will have a rolling Horizontal Dark line as you can see in many pictures I've messed up for you below <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/biggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Big Grin"><br>
if your testing with both displays being LCD you can rasie the shutter speed as high as your camera will allow to get clearer and more consitant results<br><br>
last step is to go to the webpage in the link below in Rule #1 and scroll down till you find the Input lag timer and once you got everything setup the way you want it and camera ready to go, hit start and start snapping photos <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Smilie"><br><br>
post the pictures here with a summery of results if you have time to figure that out (frame delay is more important than figuring MS differences)<br><br><b>rules are</b><br><br>
#1<br>
you must post Pictures of your results using the input lag timer here are a few free ones<br><a href="http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/response_time.php" target="_blank">Lagom.nl</a><br><a href="http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id=1229335064" target="_blank">FlatpanelsHD</a><br>
I also have a more accurate timer called SMTT, i had to pay for it but they allow you to freely distribute it to people just not on a website so <b>if you would like a copy PM me. I currently have copies of Win7/Vista x64 and WinXP 32bit that i can give out</b><br>
if you wish to Purchase a copy of a different version of SMTT you can do so at their website, if you do buy another version of SMTT please contact me if you wish to give me a copy so i can distribute it to future people who wish to test their displays and are not running Vista/Win7 x64, the cost of the program is 5 Euro's<br><a href="http://smtt.thomasthiemann.com/index_en.html" target="_blank">http://smtt.thomasthiemann.com/index_en.html</a><br><br>
SMTT will provide you will much more accurate results because it uses DirectX and unlocks the V-Sync of your graphics card's outputs, allthough the timer's down the side of the screen appear to not be in sync they in fact are. all displays scan from top to bottom and as the update happens on your display the timer keeps on advancing and that is the reason for the added accuracy of SMTT provided that your PC has enough CPU power to exceed 1000 FPS for the given resolution your at (my Core 2 Duo E4500 that is oc'd to 3.4ghz clocks around 2000 fps at 1920 x 1080)<br><br>
when using this program you always want to take the highest visible number on both displays to use to draw your input lag result and if you do this you will end up with very consistent results. its extremely accurate<br><br>
#2<br>
tell us what model TV(s) involved in the test and what their relevant settings are for each test (game mode, PC mode etc..)<br><br><br>
#3<br>
it is preferred that you have a CRT display as your baseline for the comparison but if you do not a fast PC LCD is ok or another TV that has been tested before by someone vs a CRT is ok BUT, please state that you did not use a CRT and what the average lag is of the display is that you used from another source tested vs CRT if possible, if not thats ok, but results should be taken as the difference between the 2 LCD's that have been tested in your photos and not as an accurate reading of the input lag of either display obviously <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Smilie"><br><br>
#4<br>
Make sure you also test your video cards outputs for delay by switching the display connections (ex, TV connected to #1 input Monitor on #2, take a handful of shots, then switch the monitor to #1 and the TV to #2 ) The reason for this is so far at least one user using a Geforce 260 has discovered that there is consistently a 1 frame delay from his primary connector to his secondary connector on his video card, all others so far have not experienced this including other Nvidia cards and ATI cards but it should always be checked so we can insure more accurate results<br><br>
#5 to obtain the best possible results you need to have a control display that is capable of displaying your test subject's (TV) native resolution, for 1080p LCD TV's this is 1920 x 1080. CRT monitor rarely are able to display this resolution but many of them can if you force the resolution on them but you may/can damage your monitor if you do this so be aware. 1920 x 1080 native TN LCD monitors are ideal for these tests and many of them exist these days, if your monitor is lower resolution like 1680 x 1050 (very common for 22" TN monitors) this can work fairly good still at least with Nvidia card's because what happens is when you set clone mode for 1680 x 1050 Nvidia's by default recognize that your TV will not accept that resolution and automatically upscale it to 1920 x 1080. this does result in some inaccuracy of results but in my own tests the Nvidia scalier in my GF 8800 GT is very fast and only adds around 5ms of lag by doing this (i also have a CRT that will display 1920 x 1080 when its forced to do it)<br><br><br><b>Panel type and how much they lag typically</b><br><br>
IPS = low input lag 0-16 ms(IPS-Pro made by IPS-Alpha (panasonics) S-IPS (made by LG LCD display)<br><br>
xVA = 30+ ms input lag often in the 45-60ms range in game modes for most TV's that use this panel type(S-PVA, MVA type panels found in sony, samsung and many major brand TV's sold today. they are manufactured for the most part by S-LCD (sony/samsung owned company) AU Optronics and Chi Mei<br><br>
TN = low input lag but not found in 95% of LCD TV's due to poor picture quality and not made in large sizes etc.<br><br><b>120hz sets often increase input lag. this does not necessarily mean that a 120hz set will always have high lag, there have been more than one 120hz sets that have very low input lag but it all depends on how they designed the TV to work. some models like the Samsung A650's and the Toshiba xv645u's actually disable 120hz completely when in a special mode made for PC's/gaming and then and only then they have low input lag.</b><br><br>
the reason for VA's wide usage is simple. its cheaper to manufacture in large sizes and offers better static contrast ratios over IPS panels making for the best picture in LCD's. The problem is VA LCD panel type by its nature has a very poor pixel response speed in excess of 16ms natively with many G2G transitions so in order to fix this major flaw these panels must employ RTC short for Response Time Compensation or Pixel Overdrive as it was called by many LCD monitor manufactures when it first came out. The problem for gamers with RTC is in order for it to work the panel's TCON must buffer a few frames to analyze them for changes then tell the pixels to change state faster via over voltage the control transistors for the pixels by a certian amount depending on how much the change was<br><br>
That being said there are VA displays that can produce good lag numbers at or under 30ms, samsung A series and toshiba 40xv645u are examples of this as well as sharp TV's with Vyper Drive (these sharp TV's use ASV panels and are a variation of VA tech) from what i've seen though these displays achieve low input lag by reducing how much RTC is used in the signal processing and it can create more pixel blur than is normal esp with dark images like moving a dark gray box over a black background will result in visible smear and ghosting yet more common transitions are still fast. this is a trade off us gamers will have to live with if we want TV's that perform good for gaming but can also produce great TV/movie picture quality<br><br>
IPS panels naturally have a good response time and do not require the use of RTC to bring their response time down to the level that a person cannot see pixel smearing but they cannot even begin to compare to VA panels with black levels without resorting to backlight dimming tricks (panasonic calls it A.I. Picture) that being said it is not to be assumed that an IPS does not use RTC and is lag free, only Panasonic's with IPS-Pro panels (many of their 32/37 720/1080p panel's in the past few years have had these panels) have next to no input lag consistently, LG IPS TV's can vary from fast to ok or worse possibly and the 120hz+ models will likely be laggy unless they have a special mode that defeats the 120hz mode<br><br>
here is some sample photos from LG Display comparing pixel response time of IPS and VA<br><br><img alt="" src="http://www.lgdisplay.com/pr_site/eng/tech/img/ips_m04_img02.gif" style="border:0px solid;"><br><br>
other factors can be involved in input lag though like the speed of a certian TV's internal scalier when its given a non-native resolution as well as video processing circuitry like noise reduction and most of all 120hz/motion enhancers though all of these things can be overcome by disabling them in most all TV's so this is often not the real problem for most gamers unless you plan on using older consoles/Wii's with your TV (720p scaling can be a concern for PS3 owners as well)<br><br>
An easy method to see if an LCD is VA is to press on the screen when a black/dark image is on screen see photo below also from LG Display<br><br><img alt="" src="http://www.lgdisplay.com/pr_site/eng/tech/img/ips_m04_img05.gif" style="border:0px solid;"><br><br><b><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Test Results section</span></b><br><br>
here i will divide the tested TV's into 3 sections as follows<br><br><span><b>GREEN TV's</b></span> have no more than 2 frames delayed when in a certain mode that reduces lag<br><br><span style="color:#0000FF;"><b>BLUE TV'S</b></span> will be in the middle section, what i call the gray area, the TV's that end up in between 2 and 3 frames delayed and casual gamers will have no issues with most of these TV's<br><br><span style="color:#FF0000;"><b>RED TV'S</b></span> are for TV's with more than 3 frames delayed, some of the faster ones maybe ok to some gamers but overall these TV's will have very noticeable input lag to the majority of gamers out there today unless they only play games that are not sensitive to input lag but even then they just don't realize its there, ignorance is bliss as they say <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/wink.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"><br><br><br><b><span>for results on Plasma TV's please visit</span></b> <a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1166196" target="_blank">Orta's Plasma Input lag thread</a><br><br><span><b>BEST gaming TV's tested so far</b></span><br><br><b><br><span>Samsung A650's '08 <span style="text-decoration:underline;">40" and bigger ONLY</span></span></b>(results from <a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1110472" target="_blank">650 gamers lag thread</a>) <span style="text-decoration:underline;">S-PVA panel is likely for A series Samsungs, these are the only VA's that have achieved low input lag due to a special PC mode that hurts Picture Quality dramatically by owners accounts (it may very well be turning off RTC and is much of the cause of the PQ hit)</span><br><br><span><b>VGA mode / 1080p.</b></span><br><br>
Average lag: 0-1 frame delay<br><br><span><b>VGA mode / any PC resolution accepted by the 650. 480P and 720P will not work in VGA.</b></span><br><br>
Average lag: 0-1 frame delay<br><br><span><b>HDMI2 PC mode / 1080p.</b></span><br><br>
Average lag: 0-1 frame delay<br><br><span><b>HDMI GAME mode / 1080p.</b></span><br><br>
Average lag: 1-2 frame delay<br><br><span style="color:#FF0000;"><b>HDMI Movie Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.</b></span><br><br>
Average lag: 3-4 frame delay<br><br><span style="color:#FF0000;"><b>HDMI Standard Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.</b></span><br><br>
Average Lag: 3-4 frame delay<br><br><span style="color:#FF0000;"><b>Component Standard Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.</b></span><br><br>
Average Lag: 4-6 frame delay<br><br><span><b>Component GAME mode / 480p.</b></span><br><br>
Average lag: 1-2 frame delay<br><br><i>Notes: results are taken from <a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1110472" target="_blank">Samsung 650 Input lag thread</a>; <b>tests done on these displays in this thread have not been vs CRT's but PC LCD's some of the PC LCD's have been tested vs CRT's and have been shown to be near 0 lag say in the 2-8ms lag range, however most of the tests done have been on an untested Dell LCD monitor that I have yet to find any input lag info on, but appears to be a fast TN panel. Actual Input lag may be 10ms or so higher than they are shown here due to this</b> ; the absolute fastest response on these displays are ONLY on HDMI 2 Labeled as PC and VGA input (any res. supported 1080P & normal PC resolutions NO 720P/480P on VGA) Go read that thread for more detailed results and info on these displays Including what modes disable what picture settings etc. the fastest modes disable many picture controls but not all of them</i><br><br><b><span>Panasonic 32" LZ800 HDMI 1080P</span></b> <span style="text-decoration:underline;">IPS-Pro panel</span><br><br><span><b>1080P Standard mode</b></span><br><br>
0-1 frame delay<br><br><span><b>1080P Game mode</b></span><br><br>
0-1 frame delay<br><br><span><b>480i Game mode</b><br></span><br>
1-2 frame delay (closer to 1 than 2 but definitely a bit more lag than 1080p)<br><br><i>notes: this is one the very fastest LCD TV's ever tested, would love to see what panasonic's current TV's test at, it should be around the same as these models. Tested by Mr Deap</i><br><br><a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17692059#post17692059" target="_blank">LINK TO PHOTOS</a><br><br><b><span>Panasonic TC-L32S1</span></b> <span style="text-decoration:underline;">IPS-Pro panel</span><br><br><span><b>1080P HDMI</b></span><br><br>
0-1 frame delay in game mode or out does not matter<br><br><i>notes: was tested vs a CRT monitor with an average of 14ms delay of picture with many displaying 0 ms delay, one of the best gaming TV's today for sure, the smooth motion feature appears to just be a scanning backlight and does not impact input lag but appears to show some visible flicker. Tested by hidefLoans</i><br><br><a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18012931#post18012931" target="_blank">LINK TO PHOTOS</a><br><br><b><span>Panasonic TC-L37S1</span></b> <span style="text-decoration:underline;">IPS-Pro panel</span><br><br><span><b>1080P HDMI</b></span><br><br>
0-1 frame delay just like its little brother<br><span><br><b>720p HDMI vs CRT</b></span><br><br>
1 frame delay (13ms) very good result for a non native resolution<br><br><i>notes: this is my new main PC monitor, text is not perfect 100% of the time. these Panny TV's have a strange problem with displaying red and blue text ONLY on dark/black backgrounds, text otherwise is very good once you get the picture settings set right and running cleartype tuner in windows helps some more as well. optimal Sharpness on these Panasonic's is 0-10 at most, the sharpness setting adds edge enhancement at anything over 0. Tested by Myself</i><br><br><a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18174708#post18174708" target="_blank">LINK TO PHOTOS</a><br><br><span><b>Panasonic 32" TC-L32X1 (720p)</b></span> <span style="text-decoration:underline;">IPS-Pro panel</span><br><br><span><b>720p HDMI vs LCD monitor tested to have 2ms lag</b></span><br><br>
0 input lag<br><br><i>notes: this is a very well done test using a good camera and can show how consistent your results can get once you have a good camera setup correctly for these tests. very good job Saiyanjin2. If you take a look at the you tube video in his post and you pause it you can see that the rotating frame ticker to the right of the counter is actually AHEAD of the TN pc monitor indicating that the panasonic is slightly faster than the TN in pixel response time! Tested by Saiyanjin2</i><br><br><a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18158559#post18158559" target="_blank">LINK TO PHOTOS</a><br><br>
Here's a youtube video of his tests<br><br>
<br><br><br><b><span>Toshiba 40xf550u</span></b> <span style="text-decoration:underline;">likely to be a VA panel just like my Toshiba but is unknown</span><br><br><span><b>Game mode on via HDMI</b></span><br><br>
1-2 Frame Delay<br><br><span style="color:#FF0000;"><b>Game mode OFF via HDMI</b></span><br><br>
3-4 Frame Delay<br><br><i>Notes: this set does let you make pq adjustments in game mode over hdmi/component. Results are vs a CRT display TV was not at native resolution but was not upscaling the picture so it does not matter as the scalier was not active. Tested by kumquatsrus</i><br><br><a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16153014#post16153014" target="_blank">LINK TO PHOTOS</a><br><br><b><span>Sharp LC52E77U</span></b> <span style="text-decoration:underline;">Sharp's ASV Panel a variation of VA tech only found in Sharp TV's</span><br><br><span><b>480i GAME MODE ON</b></span><br>
AV Mode: Game<br>
Fine Motion Enhanced: On<br>
Active Contrast: On<br>
Lag: 2 frames<br><br><span><b>1080p GAME MODE ON</b></span><br>
AV Mode: Game<br>
Fine Motion Enhanced: On<br>
Active Contrast: On<br>
Lag: less than 1 frame<br><br><i>results taken from <a href="http://sites.google.com/site/sharpe77ulag/" target="_blank">this webpage</a>, photos of the test are there as well ad more tests out of game mode and it appears he used a laptop LCD as his control but that should be very fast as they are normally TN panels, this model Sharp does not have their "Vyper Drive" game mode like some other model's so its probably safe to assume that the models with Vyper Drive will perform as good and maybe better with lower resolutions but i've yet to come across evidence that shows this so be aware</i><br><br><br><b><span>Panasonic 50X1 Plasma</span></b><br><br><span><b>1280 X 720</b></span><br><br>
2 frames delayed<br><br><i>notes: TV is 1366 x 768 native, it will display this resolution over HDMI but unfortunately my CRT monitor would not display it so i had to use the lower resolution<br>
35ms input lag, actual input lag could be lower at the panel's native resolution but as most 720p video games will be outputting 1280 x 720 it does not really matter<br>
as usual with Panasonic TV's they do not reduce lag in game mode, it is simply another picture mode on the TV, test was done VS a CRT and performed by Myself</i><br><br><a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18259558#post18259558" target="_blank">LINK TO PHOTO</a><br><br><b><span>NEC 3215 (32" LCD commercial display)</span></b><i>pretty likely to be an IPS panel based on performance and its 178 degree rated viewing angles</i><br><br><span><b>1440 x 900 (native res is 1366x768)</b></span><br><br>
1 frame delay<br><br><i>notes: tested vs an LCD monitor model Samsung 942B, This is not a mainstream TV set but rather a Commercial display/TV its 720p (fine for 32" unless you plan to use as a normal PC monitor) and it has no speakers and only a few inputs (VGA and DVI input i believe) tested by Zenith DTT900</i><br><br><a href="http://http//www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18263542#post18263542" target="_blank">LINK TO PHOTOS</a><br><br><b><span>Vizio 32L10A</span></b> <i>720p LCD TV</i><br><br><b><span style="color:#0000FF;">720p HDMI 1</span></b> 3 frames delayed<br><br><span><b>720p HDMI 2 & 3</b></span> 2 frames delayed<br><br><i>notes: tested vs a CRT. HDMI 1 apparently has 1 frame more lag than 2 and 3, never seen this happen before on a TV but when your dealing with lower end brands you never know what kind of odd stuff comes up. tested by bahnzo</i><br><br><a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18297763#post18297763" target="_blank">LINK TO PHOTOS</a><br><br><b><span>LG 37LH20</span></b> <i>720p IPS panel</i><br><br><span><b>720p</b></span> 2 frames delayed (25ms roughly)<br><br><b><span style="color:#0000FF;">480i</span></b> 3 frames delayed (48ms)<br><br><i>notes: tested vs CRT's. lots more information on this TV is availible in the excelent report posted by wondras the link is below this line.</i><br><br><a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18314637#post18314637" target="_blank">LINK TO PHOTOS</a><br><br><b><span>The following models are <span style="text-decoration:underline;">European</span> TV's tested by an Italian review site</span></b><br><br>
Lag numbers are listed in Standard mode then Game mode<br><br>
Remember 1 frame= 16.6ms and they performed these tests on a laptop with an inaccurate timer program so +10ms input lag should be added for a more realistic number on these results<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><br><br><a href="http://www.dday.it/redazione/220/DDay-The-Best-Gaming-TV-Test.html#pagina-2" target="_blank">Sharp 46 LE700 80 ms 5 ms<br>
Panasonic TX-P46G10 5 ms 5 ms (plasma)<br>
Panasonic TX-L32V10E 5 ms 5 ms (32/37 S1/G1 equivalent)<br>
LG 47SL8000 30 ms 10 ms<br>
Sharp LC46D65E 10 ms 10 ms<br>
Samsung LE52A558P3 40 ms 10 ms (A550??)<br>
Samsung PS50B850 80 ms 10 ms (plasma)<br>
Samsung LE40A856 40 ms 20 ms (A850??)<br>
Samsung PS63B680 90 ms 20 ms (plasma)<br>
Panasonic TX-42V10E 20 ms 20 ms (plasma)<br>
Sharp LC 42DH77E 40 ms 20 ms<br>
Sharp 46 LE600 20 ms 20 ms<br>
Sharp 40 LE600 20 ms 20 ms<br>
Sharp 40 LE700 20 ms 20 ms<br>
Toshiba 40LV685 50 ms 20 ms<br>
Toshiba 37RV635DR 30 ms 20 ms</a></div>
</div>
<br><br><br><span style="color:#0000FF;"><br><b>Blue area TV's may be ok for some people but not good enough for the most demanding gamers</b></span><br><br><span style="color:#0000FF;"><b>Panasonic TC-L37U22</b></span> <i>LG IPS panel</i><br><br><b><span style="color:#0000FF;">1080p</span></b> 2-1/2 frames delayed (42ms)<br><br><i>notes: tested vs a CRT by igomadness. iamdanwilliamson has also tested this model vs an LCD and came up with 32ms, further evidence that Tests done with PC LCD monitors need 10ms added to them to be close to accurate</i><br><br><a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18345139#post18345139" target="_blank">LINK TO PHOTOS</a><br><br><b><span style="color:#0000FF;">LG LH90</span></b> <i>LGD IPS panel more than likely user did not state the size of his TV but it should not matter</i><br><br><span style="color:#0000FF;"><b>1280x1024 <span style="text-decoration:underline;">not scaling the image</span></b></span><br><br>
2 frames delayed<br><br><i>tested vs an LCD monitor so lag is likely to be 1/2-1 frame more than tested. his picture settings in the test were "ISF/Expert 1 with Local Dimming ON" , this TV should perform at least 1 frame better if he put it into game mode i would guess but he does not want to find out for us <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/frown.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Frown"> thanks for the test result either way though rahzel <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Smilie"></i><br><br><a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18214237#post18214237" target="_blank">LINK TO PHOTOS</a><br><br><br><b><span style="color:#0000FF;">Samsung 55C7000</span></b> <i>S panel (SQ01) S-LCD S-PVA panel</i><br><br><span style="color:#FF0000;"><b>1080p HDMI/DVI 1 labeled PC</b> 9 frames delayed 156ms input lag!</span><br><br><b><span style="color:#0000FF;">1080p HDMI/DVI 1 labeled PC <span style="text-decoration:underline;">LED motion plus ON! (not AMP)</span></span></b> 2 frames delayed! (31ms)<br><br><i>notes: does show potential for having very good input lag with the correct settings at 1080p, input lag is likely to be worse, possibly much worse if not in 1080p or not in the special samsung PC mode that only works on ONE HDMI input so be warned. for this reason and the lack of using a CRT for the test i'm sticking it in the blue section tested by DarkGSR</i><br><br><a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18292142#post18292142" target="_blank">LINK TO PHOTOS</a><br><br><br><b><span style="color:#0000FF;">Sony 32" XBR6 (205r fw) 1080p HDMI</span></b> <span style="text-decoration:underline;">S-LCD made S-PVA panel confirmed by myself (its my TV!) i took the back cover off to check it</span><br><br><span style="color:#0000FF;"><b>Photo mode 1080p</b></span><br><br>
2-3 frames delay<br><br><span style="color:#0000FF;"><b>Video mode W/game mode 1080p</b></span><br><br>
2-3 frames delay<br><br><span style="color:#0000FF;"><b>Video mode W/O game mode 1080p</b></span><br><br>
2-3 frames delay<br><br><span style="color:#0000FF;"><b>VGA @ 1280 X 1024 (TV is not scaling the picture)</b></span><br><br>
2-3 frames delay<br><br><span style="color:#0000FF;"><b>720p via Component Game mode on</b></span><br><br>
2-3 frames delay<br><br><span style="color:#0000FF;"><b>480i Svideo game mode on</b></span><br><br>
2-3 frames delay<br><br><br><i>Note: The Sony's WILL allow changing of more picture controls in game mode, only setting Photo mode will disable cinemotion/motionflow and noise reduction settings, VGA mode is the most limited input on the display but you can adjust backlight, brightness and contrast in VGA, this TV was tested vs a CRT monitor. Tested by Myself</i><br><br><a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16089901#post16089901" target="_blank">LINK TO PHOTOS</a><br><br><b><span style="color:#0000FF;">Samsung 46" A550 720P HDMI</span></b> <span style="text-decoration:underline;">VA panel of some sort it could be a S-PVA or a MVA due to samsungs use of 2 different brand panels in their TV's</span><br><br><span style="color:#0000FF;"><b>Normal mode 720p</b></span><br><br>
2-3 frame delay<br><br><span style="color:#0000FF;"><b>Game mode 720p</b></span><br><br>
2-3 frame delay<br><br><span style="color:#0000FF;"><b>Normal-labeled as PC 720p</b></span><br><br>
2-3 frame delay<br><br><i>Notes: display is 1080p native, user couldn't test vs CRT at 1080p due to CRT resolution incompatibility</i><br><br><a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16092353#post16092353" target="_blank">LINK TO PHOTOS</a><br><br><b><span style="color:#0000FF;">Samsung 46A550 1080P</span></b><br><br><span style="color:#0000FF;"><b>1080P (game mode on? does not say in post)</b></span><br><br>
2-3 frame delay<br><br><i>Tested by clicq</i><br><br><a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16108149#post16108149" target="_blank">LINK TO PHOTOS</a><br><br><b><span style="color:#0000FF;">Toshiba 40xv645u</span> HDMI 1080p in game mode</b> <span style="text-decoration:underline;">took the back cover off my set to see what panel it had it is made by samsung (not S-LCD) and is made in china definitely a VA panel</span><br><br><span>Average lag 1-2 frames delayed (27ms averaged over 11 pictures 34/20 HIGH/LOW results)</span> see notes for reason why its not in the green section<br><br><i>Game mode disables 120hz (duh) most picture controls are active still except NR stuff and Resolution+ and the nice thing is the TV will save separate picture mode settings for the same input making it easy and fast to switch from a movie mode to a game mode for PS3 owners/PC users wanting to have 120hz sometimes Text on this TV when used with a PC is some of the best i've ever seen very sharp and zero noise. In game/PC mode color gradient tests on all 3 primary colors show extreme color banding problems, color accuracy is definitely impaired greatly when in these modes on this TV making it OK for gaming but bad for PC use in these modes if you care about color accuracy furthermore having 120hz turned off this TV exhibits visible pixel smearing with dark images moving over an even darker background. interestingly enough i was only able to see this happen using a test designed to create smearing, in real world use I never saw this happen but if you play any games that are very dark I have no doubt you will see this happen if the set is in game mode/out of 120hz mode and <b>for this reason i'm sticking in into the Gray area rather than the best section even though its input lag performance is good enough to be in the best section</b> Tested by Myself</i><br><br><a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18065825#post18065825" target="_blank">LINK TO PHOTOS<br></a><br><br><b><span style="color:#0000FF;">LG LH30</span></b> <i>AUO VA Panel</i><br><br><span style="color:#0000FF;"><b>1080P</b></span><br><br>
2-3 frames delayed (30-50ms lag)<br><br><a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17675339#post17675339" target="_blank">LINK TO PHOTOS</a><br><br><i>LG used to put their own S-IPS panels in these TV's in models manufactured in the first half of 2009 but sometime in the middle of 2009 they stopped doing that and put AUO VA panels into them and the input lag went up to sony/samsung levels, if your lucky enough to find one with an LGD made IPS panel they have very low input lag like panasonic IPS TV's</i><br><br>
here is proof of this from forum member Odysseus18<br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><br><br><a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=17333098&postcount=282" target="_blank">I wanted to touch on something that was posted earlier in the thread regarding the possibility of a panel "lottery" similar to some of Samsungs sets.<br><br>
I have two 32lh30s. One with a build date of March 2009 and the most recent, August 2009. The blacks are without a doubt deeper, however, the picture in general is better on the older set. I have noticed some ghosting and motion blur on the newer unit which is not experienced previously. I also noticed that the picture looks a bit grainy compared to the older unit.<br><br>
I am quite disappointed by this, as I was expecting the same level of quality with this newest purchase.</a></div>
</div>
<br><br><b><span style="color:#0000FF;">The following models are <span style="text-decoration:underline;">European</span> TV's tested by an Italian review site</span></b><br><br>
Lag numbers are listed in Standard mode then Game mode<br><br>
Remember 1 frame= 16.6ms and they performed these tests on a laptop with an inaccurate timer program so +10ms input lag should be added for a more realistic number on these results<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><br><br><a href="http://www.dday.it/redazione/220/DDay-The-Best-Gaming-TV-Test.html#pagina-2" target="_blank">LG 47LH5000 30 ms 30 ms (LH50)<br>
LG 50PS8000 50 ms 40 ms (plasma)<br>
LG 42LH5000 50 ms 40 ms (LH50)<br>
Panasonic TX-50V10E 40 ms 30 ms (see notes)<br>
Samsung LE46B750 110 ms 30 ms (B750)<br>
Samsung LE40B550 60 ms 30 ms (B550)<br>
Samsung LE46A956 50 ms 30 ms (A950??)<br>
Samsung PS58P96 50 ms 40 ms (plasma)<br>
Sony KDL-46Z4500 60 ms 25 ms (Z4100)<br>
Sony KDL-46V5500 30 ms 30 ms (V5100)<br>
Sony KDL-52Z5500 30 ms 30 ms (Z5100)<br>
Sony KDL-46W5500 40 ms 40 ms (W5100)<br>
Toshiba 42ZV635 50 ms 40 ms<br>
Toshiba 55SV685 70 ms 40 ms</a></div>
</div>
<br><span style="color:#FF0000;"><b>WORST Gaming TV's tested so far</b></span><br><br><span style="color:#FF0000;"><b>Vizio SV472XVT</b></span> <i>likely uses an LG 47" IPS panel because thats the only LCD made in that size AFAIK</i><br><br><span style="color:#FF0000;"><b>VGA 1080p</b></span> - min 54ms (3.25 frames), average 69ms (4 frames).<br><br><span style="color:#FF0000;"><b>HDMI 1080p</b></span> all advanced image processing options OFF - min 61ms (3.5-ish frames), average 67ms (4 frames).<br><br><span style="color:#FF0000;"><b>HDMI 1080p</b></span> all advanced image processing options ON and maxed out - min 59ms (3.5 frames), average 65ms (4 frames).<br><br><span style="color:#FF0000;"><b>Composite 480i</b></span> - I didn't test this with SMTT but using the Wii in this mode was almost unplayable. Horrible input lag. Avoid at all costs (use the component cable instead).<br><br><span style="color:#FF0000;"><b>Component 480p</b></span> - As soon as I switched the Wii to use a component cable and ran in 480p it felt just like the XBox 360 in 1080p (i.e. about 3-4 frames of input lag).<br><br><i>notes: Tested vs a CRT. it appears that even though these Vizio TV's use an LCD panel that has been shown to have low lag Vizio's poor implementation of the mainboard hardware/software is creating non-defeatable input lag because this panel when in LG and probably Toshiba TV's that use them as well have much less input lag and preform good. Tested by ninjapowered</i><br><br><a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18296314#post18296314" target="_blank">LINK TO PHOTOS</a><br><br><b><span style="color:#FF0000;">Samsung LN52B630 tested vs a 17inch CRT monitor</span></b> <span style="text-decoration:underline;">VA panel of some sort it could be a S-PVA or a MVA due to samsungs use of 2 different brand panels in their TV's</span><br><br><span style="color:#FF0000;"><b>VGA input 1920 x 1080</b></span><br><br>
3-4 frame delay<br><br><span style="color:#FF0000;"><b>HDMI1 DVI game mode OFF</b></span><br><br>
6 frames delayed<br><br><span style="color:#FF0000;"><b>HDMI1 DVI game mode ON</b></span><br><br>
3-4 frame delay<br><br><i>notes: "I was running my pc with a millisecond clock in clone mode. MSI 9400GT video card with HDMI,VGA,DVI. I was using a Canon A570Is camera. I found I had to use a 125 second exposure (ASA800) to get the picture. With a higher shutter speed (500) the CRT monitor displayed a moving black bar which usually covered the clock.<br><br>
AMP set to Off,Dynamic Contrast set to Off"</i><br><br><a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17842442#post17842442" target="_blank">LINK TO PHOTOS</a><br><br><b><span style="color:#FF0000;">Sony 52EX701</span></b> <i>Appears to use Sharp's new X-Gen LCD panel</i><br><br><span style="color:#FF0000;"><b>VGA in at 1024 x 768</b></span><br><br>
5 frames delayed <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/frown.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Frown"><br><br><span style="color:#FF0000;"><b>HDMI in at 1024 x 768</b></span><br><br>
5 frames delayed <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/frown.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Frown"><br><br><i>owner tested it vs a CRT monitor and for the moment at least only tested it at this low resolution so its part of the cause of the lag but it's still lagging too much to account for simple scalier lag that normally averages at 10-20ms input lag at most, hopefully he will attempt to test at a higher resolution soon so we can see if lower numbers are possible but i doubt it will get into the gamer friendly range at this point. Tested by MetalAlien</i><br><br>
here's his youtube video of the test, he used a high speed capable camera for the test<br>
<br><br><a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18252637#post18252637" target="_blank">link to the owners posts regarding this test</a><br><br><b><span style="color:#FF0000;">Samsung 32C450 720p</span></b> <span style="text-decoration:underline;">CMO Panel</span><br><br><span style="color:#FF0000;"><b>1360x768 HDMI</b></span><br><br>
3-4 frames delayed (50-60ms lag)<br><br><i>was tested vs a 16" CRT monitor by Odysseus18</i><br><br><a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18200075#post18200075" target="_blank">LINK TO PHOTOS</a><br><br><span style="color:#FF0000;"><b>Sony EX500</b></span> <i>likely to be a VA panel either AUO or S-LCD</i><br><br><b>not sure what resolution was used</b> 5.5 frames delayed, 94ms input lag<br><br>
here's a youtube video showing how bad the input lag is on this TV<br>
<br><br><br><b><span style="color:#FF0000;">Insignia NS-32LCD-09</span></b> <span style="text-decoration:underline;">who cares what panel it had it was terrible <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/biggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Big Grin"></span><br><br>
Avoid at all costs, I owned this TV briefly before i Knew about input lag and how to test it but I can tell you that when i had it connected via VGA at 720P (its native res) it looked ok picture wise but input lag in windows with mouse movements were EXTREMELY apparent. If i had to guess it lags at least in the 80-100 MS range maybe even higher it was very bad !! not fit for gaming ever<br>
It should pretty much go without saying that you should never buy a cheapo brand TV if you want a TV with low input lag, major players like sony and samsung cannot even get good lag numbers so its pretty unlikely that any cheap off brand or best buy house brand model TV is going to perform good input lag wise, <span style="text-decoration:underline;">Vizio may be the only exception to this rule but i've heard very mixed results on how they perform input lag wise ranging from good to terrible</span><br><br><br><b><span style="color:#FF0000;">The following models are <span style="text-decoration:underline;">European</span> TV's tested by an Italian review site</span></b><br><br><br>
Lag numbers are listed in Standard mode then Game mode<br><br>
Remember 1 frame= 16.6ms and they performed these tests on a laptop with an inaccurate timer program so +10ms input lag should be added for a more realistic number on these results<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><br><br><a href="http://www.dday.it/redazione/220/DDay-The-Best-Gaming-TV-Test.html#pagina-2" target="_blank">LG 37LH4000 50 ms 50 ms (LH40)<br>
Samsung 40 LED 6000 130 ms 50 ms (B6000)<br>
Samsung 46 LED 6000 70 ms 50 ms (B6000)<br>
Samsung LE40B750 110 ms 50 ms (B750)<br>
Samsung LE40B650 100 ms 50 ms (B650)<br>
Samsung 46 LED 7000 100 ms 60 ms (B7000)<br>
Samsung 40 LED 7000 110 ms 70 ms (B7000)<br>
Samsung LE46B650 100 ms 70 ms (B650)<br>
Samsung 40 LED 8000 90 ms 60 ms (B8000)<br>
Sharp LC52XS1 110 ms 80 ms (super expensive TV lol)<br>
Sony KDL-32W5500 50 ms 50 ms (?? no us eq.)<br>
Sony KDL-40ZX1* 120 ms 70 ms (another super expensive TV)<br></a></div>
</div>
<br>
 
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Sony 32XBR6 (jan 09 build 205r FW) vs viewsonic 17" CRT monitor<br>
1080p HDMI input on all tests<br><br>
Photo mode (game mode is disabled in this mode)<br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1165.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1164.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1163.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1162.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1161.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><br>
Video mode W/ Game mode ON<br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1170.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1169.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1168.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1167.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1166.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><br>
Video mode W/ Game mode OFF<br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1175.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1174.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1173.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1172.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1171.jpg" style="border:0px solid;">
 

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excellent thread! just the thing gamers can refer to in their hdtv purchasing decisions. the funny thing is, i ran the exact same tests a few days ago with the following: toshiba 40xf550u (game mode on & off via hdmi but not vga), toshiba m305d laptop, samsung 770tft, and dell 17" crt, all snapped with a fujifilm finepix z5 camera. i think i had anywhere from a 1 frame (16ms) to a 2 frame lag (32ms) on my 40" toshiba lcd with game mode on via hdmi in comparison against the dell crt. will try to post pix later this weekend comparing all relevant equipment aforementioned above. hope i remember how to post the pix cause it's been awhile, lol.
 

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This is a good idea... gather up all the information so that we point someone over here who asks the same question the bazillionth time lol...<br><br>
One thing guys if you only going to put up one mode then make sure if comparing to non-game mode vs game mode that you turn off dynamic contrast, motion plus thingy, and anything else that would increase lag. Just so it can be compared properly against others.
 

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Here's my tests on a lowly Samsung 46A550. My CRT is old and can't do 1080p, so I ran these tests at 1280x720 (720p). My video card was set to clone, TV was connected through HDMI while the monitor was VGA. Both had the same resolution and refresh rate (60Hz).<br><br>
I'd like to emphasize that these tests are at 720p, so the TV has to do scaling! I'd imagine the results at 1080p would be better.<br><br>
Summary:<br>
Normal mode: ~2 frames (30ms)<br>
Game mode: ~1.5 frames (25ms)<br>
PC mode: ~2 frames (30ms)<br><br>
Input lag in normal mode is about 30ms, give or take maybe 5 ms. Here's a picture:<br><img alt="" src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/artitj/SKuDkZTYcuI/AAAAAAAAB0k/knltQRvmY7g/s400/DSCF1518.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><br>
When I activated game mode, the input lag dropped a little less than 10ms. I'd get some pictures showing 20ms of lag, and some showing 30, so let's split it down the middle and say 25ms with game mode.<br><img alt="" src="http://lh4.ggpht.com/artitj/SKuDk8t5dLI/AAAAAAAAB0s/kh0wcazSkFE/s400/DSCF1565.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br>
The numbers are 629 and 609, I didn't realize it was so small when I resized it <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Smilie">.<br><br>
Naming the input PC made a tiny difference, but I couldn't capture it.<br><img alt="" src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/artitj/SKuDlk9E6tI/AAAAAAAAB00/cJDHjJWI7t4/s400/DSCF1581.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br>
It's 181 (on the CRT) and 151.
 

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Here's a test of the Panasonic LZ800 from that owner's thread. Seems to be either 16ms or 30ms...<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Mr Deap</strong> <a href="/forum/post/14375279"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><b><span style="color:#FF0000;">HDMI Panasonic TC-32LZ800</span> vs <span>CRT VGA</span></b><br><img alt="" src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/111lika111/HDMIpanasonic.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><br><img alt="" src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/111lika111/HDMIPanasonic2.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"></div>
</div>
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Guys can you please post a summary of what your pictures show so that my brain doesn't have to do the math. This means you Frito <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/wink.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"><br><br>
So something like:<br>
Sony 32XBR6<br>
Photo Mode (game mode disabled) : 30ms lag
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Viche</strong> <a href="/forum/post/16093067"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Guys can you please post a summary of what your pictures show so that my brain doesn't have to do the math. This means you Frito <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/wink.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"><br><br>
So something like:<br>
Sony 32XBR6<br>
Photo Mode (game mode disabled) : 30ms lag</div>
</div>
<br>
I did its in the first post. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Smilie"><br><br>
I went to reboot my pc into linux last night and my mobo is messing up with hdd detection atm so once I get it fixed I'll add the new results to the top post as well thanks guys
 

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OK, PC is back up and running in windows, my linux hdd bit the bullet I guess, wont detect in post <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/frown.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Frown">, I got it for free so I cant complain much apparently its a widespread problem with these seagate 750gb drives and a firmware update might have saved it =/ oh well<br><br>
anyways back on topic, I added the new results to the top post.<br><br>
Clicq, your video card wont do scaling to make 1080p display on your CRT? my Nvidia does this whenever the display reports that it cannot display a resolution, oddly my 17" CRT did display 1080P for awhile and now its scaling it lol! , also how many pictures did you take of each mode, the more the better so we know you didnt just post up the "best ones" <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/wink.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"> (not saying your lying or anything, but trust me your results will be disputed if you only have 1 pic of each mode as proof <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Smilie"><br><br>
ditto to the panny results, but I understand you just cross posted those pictures so they will have to do for now <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Smilie">
 

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<b><span style="font-size:medium;">SAMSUNG A650</span></b><br><br>
First I had to set up a control.<br><br>
Since I was going to be using a laptop, I wanted to test it for lag<br>
against a CRT monitor. The results were pretty surprising! The Gateway<br>
laptop screen was pretty much lag free! Nice! The clear images from the<br>
test are below. There were a couple of blurry ones. If I had to guess<br>
I'd say they were both about 16ms of lag. Could be anything from<br>
background activity to just normal lag spurts all PC's have.<br><div style="text-align:center;"><br><img alt="" src="http://clash.cc/cynn/controla.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><br><img alt="" src="http://clash.cc/cynn/controlb.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><br><img alt="" src="http://clash.cc/cynn/controlc.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><br><img alt="" src="http://clash.cc/cynn/controld.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"></div>
<br>
OK so with that done we learned that the Laptop screen is mostly lag<br>
free with a couple of random 16ms hiccups. Now we are free to do testing<br>
on the actual Samsung 650.<br><br><b><span style="text-decoration:underline;">But please take note:</span> The only common resolution I could get<br>
the laptop to clone image in was 1024x768. (the CRT control test was<br>
also in this resolution) That means the Samsung had to use it's scaling<br>
chip to display the image. The absolute worst thing for lag in these<br>
models is making it scale the image. That means these results are going<br>
to be much worse for lag than using a real 1080p source. From other<br>
tests out there scaling the image on the Samsung 650 basically doubles<br>
the lag. So when you read these results, keep in mind that for example,<br>
an Xbox 360 in 1080p mode is going to have basically half the lag you<br>
see below.</b><br><br>
The lag results are as follows:<br>
1: 16ms<br>
2: 16ms<br>
3: 31ms<br>
4: 16ms<br>
5: 31ms<br><br>
Like the Laptop vs CRT test there were also a couple +16ms jumps for<br>
whatever reason pushing it to 31ms as you see below.<br><div style="text-align:center;"><br><img alt="" src="http://clash.cc/cynn/16ms.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><br><img alt="" src="http://clash.cc/cynn/16msa.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><br><img alt="" src="http://clash.cc/cynn/31ms.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><br><img alt="" src="http://clash.cc/cynn/16msb.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><br><img alt="" src="http://clash.cc/cynn/31msa.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><br><img alt="" src="http://clash.cc/cynn/16msd.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"></div>
<br><br>
So to wrap it all up, from my own testing this morning I found there to<br>
be roughly 16-31ms lag in VGA mode <b>when not in native resolution</b>.<br>
Based on other results online I would expect a 1080p native signal would<br>
produce roughly 8-16ms on the Samsung 650. That's pretty much in line<br>
with the other tests out there.<br><br><b><i>Samsung 650 MEGA Input lag thread: <a href="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1110472" target="_blank">http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1110472</a></i></b><i><br><br>
VGA mode / 1080p.<br><br>
Average lag: 0-8ms<br>
0.0-0.5 frame delay.<br>
Average FD: 0.3 Frame (~a third of a frame)<br>
59.7 cycles per second (of 60)<br>
Zero/Undetectable lag to humans.<br>
(approved for pro level gaming)<br><br>
VGA mode / any PC resolution accepted by the 650. 480P and 720P will not work in VGA.<br><br>
Average lag: 0-8ms<br>
0.0-0.5 frame delay.<br>
Average FD: 0.3 Frame (~a third of a frame)<br>
59.7 cycles per second (of 60)<br>
Zero/Undetectable lag to humans.<br>
(approved for pro level gaming)<br><br>
HDMI2 PC mode / 1080p.<br><br>
Average lag: 6-15ms<br>
0.3-1 frame delay.<br>
Average FD: 0.6 Frame (~half a frame)<br>
59.5 cycles per second (of 60)<br>
Zero/Undetectable lag to humans.<br>
(approved for pro level gaming)<br><br>
HDMI GAME mode / 1080p.<br><br>
Average lag: 15-25ms<br>
1-2 Frame delay.<br>
Average FD: 1.5 Frame<br>
58.5 cycles per second (of 60)<br>
Detectable lag only for remarkably sensitive people.<br>
(approved for pro level gaming)<br><br>
HDMI Movie Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.<br><br>
Average lag: 50-60ms<br>
3-4 frame delay<br>
Average FD: 3.5 Frame<br>
56.5 cycles per second (of 60)<br>
Detectable lag for most serious game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.<br>
(NOT approved for pro level gaming)<br><br>
HDMI Standard Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.<br><br>
Average Lag: 50-60ms<br>
3-4 frame delay<br>
Average FD: 3.5 Frame<br>
56.5 cycles per second (of 60)<br>
Detectable lag for most serious game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.<br>
(NOT approved for pro level gaming)<br><br>
Component Standard Mode / 1080p / No image enhancers activated.<br><br>
Average Lag: 80-100ms<br>
5-6 frame delay<br>
Average FD: 5.5 Frame<br>
54.5 cycles per second (of 60)<br>
Detectable lag for most game players especially in the fighting/first person game types.<br>
(NOT approved for pro level gaming)<br><br>
Component GAME mode / 480p.<br><br>
Average lag: 15-25ms<br>
1-2 Frame delay.<br>
Average FD: 1.5 Frame<br>
58.5 cycles per second (of 60)<br>
Detectable lag only for remarkably sensitive people.<br>
(approved for pro level gaming)</i>
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks Cynn,<br><br>
that is a good example of how to properly test using a LCD display as a comparison <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Smilie">
 

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Discussion Starter #13
2nd round of tests on my 32xbr6<br><br>
VGA @ 1280x1024 (couldn't get my video card to output anything higher on clone mode output with both displays being VGA, oddly I can get it to when tv is connected via HDMI though )<br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1229.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1230.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1231.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1232.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1233.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br>
720P via Component in game mode<br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1209.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1210.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1211.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1212.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1213.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br>
480i via Svideo in game mode<br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1224.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1225.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1226.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1227.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><img alt="" src="http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp33/Frito_023/100_1228.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"><br><br>
One thing i have found that is odd is i constantly keep coming up with 47ms lag on many inputs more than one time!!<br><br>
another thing to note is that alot of shots its very hard to determine what the numbers read on my TV screen, I can often go with a higher number and get a better speed number or go with the lower number and get a higher lag number<br><br>
a good example is my shots in VGA the first 2 photos could be read as either a 47ms lag or 32 ms lag and then the other 3 are 32,31,32 respectively<br><br><span style="text-decoration:underline;">I will post my averages in the top post of the thread, and i will be using the HIGHEST lag numbers i could read to figure in the averages</span>
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>frito</strong> <a href="/forum/post/16093940"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Thanks Cynn,<br><br>
that is a good example of how to properly test using a LCD display as a comparison <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Smilie"></div>
</div>
<br>
Thanks, always happy to help.
 

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Man I wish I still had an old ass CRT that could do 1080p.<br><br>
I'm about to make a trip over to best buy today and see if they have any affordable 42inch plasmas. I'm hoping to get some of those numbers too.<br><br>
I was also just at frys last night, wow the new sammy B550s look pretty damn good. 40" for like 800 bucks I think it was. 500hundred cheaper than this a750... now i'm wondering if AMP and "120hz" is really worth 500 more.<br><br>
Anyways... gunna update this sony now and start snapping away. Btw, you use any IM clients? (PM me if you do)
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>frito</strong> <a href="/forum/post/16093570"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
OK, PC is back up and running in windows, my linux hdd bit the bullet I guess, wont detect in post <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/frown.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Frown">, I got it for free so I cant complain much apparently its a widespread problem with these seagate 750gb drives and a firmware update might have saved it =/ oh well<br><br>
anyways back on topic, I added the new results to the top post.<br><br>
Clicq, your video card wont do scaling to make 1080p display on your CRT? my Nvidia does this whenever the display reports that it cannot display a resolution, oddly my 17" CRT did display 1080P for awhile and now its scaling it lol! , also how many pictures did you take of each mode, the more the better so we know you didnt just post up the "best ones" <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/wink.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"> (not saying your lying or anything, but trust me your results will be disputed if you only have 1 pic of each mode as proof <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Smilie"><br><br>
ditto to the panny results, but I understand you just cross posted those pictures so they will have to do for now <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Smilie"></div>
</div>
<br>
I took ~10 pictures, but I didn't see the point in posting them all. I think these tests are pretty much accurate only to one frame, since there's a lot of variables (i.e., how do you know for <i>sure</i> that the video card is updating both outputs at the EXACT same time? Plus, seeing as the program is written in flash, how accurate is the timer? So I'm only willing to say my results are what they are with a 1 frame margin of error.<br><br>
You can <b>not</b> use scaling in the video card software, because if you do that, you definitely can NOT guarantee that the video card is refreshing both screens at the same time -- how long does your video card take to scale the image? I don't know, but that's yet another variable to consider.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>clicq</strong> <a href="/forum/post/16095238"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I took ~10 pictures, but I didn't see the point in posting them all. I think these tests are pretty much accurate only to one frame, since there's a lot of variables (i.e., how do you know for <i>sure</i> that the video card is updating both outputs at the EXACT same time? Plus, seeing as the program is written in flash, how accurate is the timer? So I'm only willing to say my results are what they are with a 1 frame margin of error.<br><br>
You can <b>not</b> use scaling in the video card software, because if you do that, you definitely can NOT guarantee that the video card is refreshing both screens at the same time -- how long does your video card take to scale the image? I don't know, but that's yet another variable to consider.</div>
</div>
<br>
Yeah makes sense, though I have taken pictures with and without scaling on my CRT and i seen no real variation in the results besides the normal variation that i get in all results and your right that seems to be about 1 frame variation<br><br>
taking that into account it seems that samsung 650's when setup right are 1-2 frames behind the input and my sony is 2-4 frames behind in any input on game mode (2-3 on HD inputs in game or photo mode, 3-4 behind on 480i input types, composite, svideo)
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>clicq</strong> <a href="/forum/post/16095238"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
how do you know for <i>sure</i> that the video card is updating both outputs at the EXACT same time?</div>
</div>
<br>
This is EASY to test. If there's a discrepency, it would be easily notice by switching ports on the display cables.<br><br>
I have found all my test have repeatable results and have no problems standing by my findings.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>KVW</strong> <a href="/forum/post/16095495"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
This is EASY to test. If there's a discrepency, it would be easily notice by switching ports on the display cables.<br><br>
I have found all my test have repeatable results and have no problems standing by my findings.</div>
</div>
<br>
Well, it may not be a significant factor compared to some of the other factors, I was just giving some possible causes for variation. I still don't think you can get an estimate better than 1 frame though... maybe 1/2 a frame, plus or minus... though if you have some information on how accurate the flash timer is, I'd be very interested.<br><br>
Anyway, I'm not saying the test isn't valid -- I'm just pointing out that a difference of 10ms or so in these testes between TVs is probably not significant.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>clicq</strong> <a href="/forum/post/16096644"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Well, it may not be a significant factor compared to some of the other factors, I was just giving some possible causes for variation. I still don't think you can get an estimate better than 1 frame though... maybe 1/2 a frame, plus or minus... though if you have some information on how accurate the flash timer is, I'd be very interested.<br><br>
Anyway, I'm not saying the test isn't valid -- I'm just pointing out that a difference of 10ms or so in these testes between TVs is probably not significant.</div>
</div>
<br>
I agree 10ms in these tests is not significant and in the many pictures i have shot the variation seems to be closer to 20ms.<br><br>
In my opinion these tests are a good way to show generally what the input latency is of a display, they cannot and will never be 100% accurate, unfortunately its is the only way we can test input lag on a widespread basis<br><br>
I started testing myself, not because i felt my TV was slow, but to see how slow it was and put it into perspective with what everyone else has been saying about input lag and what is too much lag. sense discovering to my surprise that my display lags more than expected, I thought I would I have been able to see the lag for myself but playing games even FPS games I still cannot see it happen. by other means like taking a window and dragging it up and down when its being shown on both my 19" LCD and my TV and i can clearly see that they are not moving together at the same time, besides the visual shift difference between screen size and resolution I can also see that if i move it up and down short and quickly it will be going up on one display and down on the other. It's real easy for me to do because my displays are right next to each other .<br><br>
I guess what shocks me is that some people are sensitive enough that they can notice this very small amount of lag. I think I may just be used to it by now. you certainly should be able to get used to such a short delay that it will become normal to you (30-60 ms)<br><br>
I guess though if you combined this delay along with internet lag of being on a server that you don't get a great ping on it could become an issue for game play though
 
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