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Ask any person who has tried (I stress tried) callibrating the TV3. Run Run Run.......
Insiders say the TV3 is #@$#
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As someone considering this projector I was hoping this thread contained some useful information. Can you provide any evidence to backup this claim? A quote, a source, the name of any "insider" who said it, a document, details of a personal experience, details on why it is difficult to calibrate? Anything? If not, then this post is just flame bait.
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It is flame bait! This forum has already had long discussions about how the TV3 is on par with other HD2 projectors in PQ, despite the service menu issues. It is not #@$#. I saw it myself this weekend and was very impressed.
Art
Art
VDAmatthew,
You must work for the newspaper or something. You title reminds me of your typical BS line used to draw attention, but when you look into it the content is simply that, BS.
Yes, the TV3 does lack some of the calibration tools that the Sharp has, but if you READ the entire thread you will see that the TV3 owners, myself included, are VERY happy with the unit. As a matter of fact my TV3 is replacing a Sony G70 CRT!
You must work for the newspaper or something. You title reminds me of your typical BS line used to draw attention, but when you look into it the content is simply that, BS.
Yes, the TV3 does lack some of the calibration tools that the Sharp has, but if you READ the entire thread you will see that the TV3 owners, myself included, are VERY happy with the unit. As a matter of fact my TV3 is replacing a Sony G70 CRT!
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Time to calm down. I agree the title is inflammatory.
I think the point is that without the service code, the TV3 can not be calibrated. Even with the service code, it probably can't be calibrated as well as the Sharp 10000 because of the pluracity of calibration adjustments available on the Sharp. Since I like others do not have the service code for the Dwin, I do not know what calibration adjustments are available there. Clearly though gray scale calibration adjustments are available there.
People who earn a portion of their living by calibrating projectors will not like the TV3. Why. You can't calibrate it. All you can do is set the contrast, brightness, color, tint, and sharpness. This any moron can do with an Avia disk. Hardly do you need a calibrator to do this. Of course, you can hire one to do this, but you should not be charged anything like the full calibration fee.
Now so do YOU need the ability to calibrate the projector?
The vast majority do not. Just like the vast majority of traditional users of CRT sets. Even better, the Dwin unlike those CRT sets is calibrated at the factory. Sure things will change somewhat as the bulb ages. So what? Most people will still very much enjoy what they have. If challenged, they will defend what they bought. WE LOVE IT. IT DOESN"T NEED ANY CALIBRATION. EVERYBODY LOVES IT. IT CAN"T BE ANY BETTER.
Need is indeed in the eyes of the viewer. And indeed most do not NEED (want) a calibration. The vast majority do not need (want) a calibration. The Dwin is perfect for them.
Others would say, I want the picture to be as good as it can, as accurate etc. Those would complain that the set has the capability of being better but they or their calibrator cannot access the built in controls that would enable the betterment. Some tweakers with their on calibration meter will want to calibrate their baby every few hundred hours. For such people, the Dwin is not the proper choice (unless the access code is released and enough features are available in the service menu to perform what they or their calibrator considers to be an appropriate calibration. For example, there may not be sufficient controls to tailor a custom gamma curve, or to store and access different curves.)
I think the point is that without the service code, the TV3 can not be calibrated. Even with the service code, it probably can't be calibrated as well as the Sharp 10000 because of the pluracity of calibration adjustments available on the Sharp. Since I like others do not have the service code for the Dwin, I do not know what calibration adjustments are available there. Clearly though gray scale calibration adjustments are available there.
People who earn a portion of their living by calibrating projectors will not like the TV3. Why. You can't calibrate it. All you can do is set the contrast, brightness, color, tint, and sharpness. This any moron can do with an Avia disk. Hardly do you need a calibrator to do this. Of course, you can hire one to do this, but you should not be charged anything like the full calibration fee.
Now so do YOU need the ability to calibrate the projector?
The vast majority do not. Just like the vast majority of traditional users of CRT sets. Even better, the Dwin unlike those CRT sets is calibrated at the factory. Sure things will change somewhat as the bulb ages. So what? Most people will still very much enjoy what they have. If challenged, they will defend what they bought. WE LOVE IT. IT DOESN"T NEED ANY CALIBRATION. EVERYBODY LOVES IT. IT CAN"T BE ANY BETTER.
Need is indeed in the eyes of the viewer. And indeed most do not NEED (want) a calibration. The vast majority do not need (want) a calibration. The Dwin is perfect for them.
Others would say, I want the picture to be as good as it can, as accurate etc. Those would complain that the set has the capability of being better but they or their calibrator cannot access the built in controls that would enable the betterment. Some tweakers with their on calibration meter will want to calibrate their baby every few hundred hours. For such people, the Dwin is not the proper choice (unless the access code is released and enough features are available in the service menu to perform what they or their calibrator considers to be an appropriate calibration. For example, there may not be sufficient controls to tailor a custom gamma curve, or to store and access different curves.)
Mark - my perception has always been that DWIN is more of a specialty projector. I think of the Sharp 10K as more of a mass market. With this in mind I would think demand for the DWIN would stem more from the HT enthusiast / power user more so than the average Joe who wants a front pj. Most people that come into your store may have heard of the Sharp, but certainly not the TV3.
Since power users definitely like to tweak, I find it ironic that DWIN does not release the service codes and/or make the unit more tweakable. Either DWIN does not understand their target audience or more likely I don't understand it.
In any event, providing a few extra settings to allow someone to set rgb gain/offset and gamma along with a factory reset wouldn't take an experienced programmer more than a couple of days. So their decision not to provide this functionality is a bit of a mystery to me.
In any event, if I had purchased a TV3 their stance on this would be completely unacceptable and my unit would be going back. I am glad to see my research into this paying of here, as I saw this coming. I have no regrets going with the Sharp 10K.
Since power users definitely like to tweak, I find it ironic that DWIN does not release the service codes and/or make the unit more tweakable. Either DWIN does not understand their target audience or more likely I don't understand it.
In any event, providing a few extra settings to allow someone to set rgb gain/offset and gamma along with a factory reset wouldn't take an experienced programmer more than a couple of days. So their decision not to provide this functionality is a bit of a mystery to me.
In any event, if I had purchased a TV3 their stance on this would be completely unacceptable and my unit would be going back. I am glad to see my research into this paying of here, as I saw this coming. I have no regrets going with the Sharp 10K.
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Friends,
As I step back from what I wrote a few days I ago, I kind of regret my comments. I'm sure the projector views great..... I'm just concerned about being able to calibrate the projector. This projector's picture is not bunk.... it's the inability for it to be calibrated that bothers me. I'm sorry to those who enjoy this projector. It's not my style to make a bold statement without backing it up. Yet, I have spoken with more than one ISF certified engineers that have their concerns about service menus. Here again these guys can't make money calibrating these projectors so of course they slam it. I for one I'm interested in furthering a projector by engaging an in depth calibration. Ok, I'm done.
Matthew
As I step back from what I wrote a few days I ago, I kind of regret my comments. I'm sure the projector views great..... I'm just concerned about being able to calibrate the projector. This projector's picture is not bunk.... it's the inability for it to be calibrated that bothers me. I'm sorry to those who enjoy this projector. It's not my style to make a bold statement without backing it up. Yet, I have spoken with more than one ISF certified engineers that have their concerns about service menus. Here again these guys can't make money calibrating these projectors so of course they slam it. I for one I'm interested in furthering a projector by engaging an in depth calibration. Ok, I'm done.
Matthew
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475 Posts
I think Mark and lovingdvd have summed it up pretty well. People need to evaluate their needs and make their selection accordingly. I found this thread aggravating because the calibration issue has already been discussed ad nauseum and it should not be used to judge the entire projector.
For me, the DWIN makes sense. I have three rows of seating and the last row is on a 2 foot riser. Given the way sharp/marantz/others implement the lens shift, their projector would hang down almost 3 feet and someone could easily bump their head on my $10K projector. To me, DWIN hit a home run here. Also, my projector is 30 feet away from my equipment and I don't want to run six different 30 foot cables for each input. Again, the single DVI cable is a great feature for me.
Does the calibration issue bother me? Honestly, yes it does, but the other features outweigh it. Last weekend I saw the TV3 at 7Music7's house and was very impressed so I am not worried about PQ. And DWIN has already stated that if the greyscale is off, they will fix it (I know, it would be a hassle, but at least they are willing to do it).
Again, these are all personal preferences. Pick what is right for you and go for it.
As a side note, I would be very surprised if the service code is not all over the internet within 6 months. There are very few secrets anymore.....
Art
For me, the DWIN makes sense. I have three rows of seating and the last row is on a 2 foot riser. Given the way sharp/marantz/others implement the lens shift, their projector would hang down almost 3 feet and someone could easily bump their head on my $10K projector. To me, DWIN hit a home run here. Also, my projector is 30 feet away from my equipment and I don't want to run six different 30 foot cables for each input. Again, the single DVI cable is a great feature for me.
Does the calibration issue bother me? Honestly, yes it does, but the other features outweigh it. Last weekend I saw the TV3 at 7Music7's house and was very impressed so I am not worried about PQ. And DWIN has already stated that if the greyscale is off, they will fix it (I know, it would be a hassle, but at least they are willing to do it).
Again, these are all personal preferences. Pick what is right for you and go for it.
As a side note, I would be very surprised if the service code is not all over the internet within 6 months. There are very few secrets anymore.....
Art
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1,239 Posts
Gentlemen, some food for thought, let's take a step out of the box for a minute and imagine how terrible it would be, if we the consumer, didn't need to pay absorbent fees to so called experts to calibrate our projectors.
IMO, the days of high priced calibrations will be coming to an end, self sufficiency on the part of the consumer is where these products need to be (i.e. plug and play), with refinements in technology this will come to pass as sure as I'm typing this post.
I think Dwin is thinking out of the box, good for them.
IMO, the days of high priced calibrations will be coming to an end, self sufficiency on the part of the consumer is where these products need to be (i.e. plug and play), with refinements in technology this will come to pass as sure as I'm typing this post.
I think Dwin is thinking out of the box, good for them.
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Without pissing of any calibrators, I agree with Tom that its great that Dwin can create a projector that supposedly comes out pre calibrated so that the user can start watching movies without having to spend additional monies for calibration. On the other hand, projectors can screw up after a while and it would be nice to have someone come to adjust it for you.
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Tom - I'm not following you here at all. Just how is DWIN thinking out of the box by restricting the ability for educated end users and ISF professional from properly calibrating the pj?
As was already pointed out here - to each his own. For many the other benefits of the pj will outweight the calibration restriction. But I have a good feel for your level expectations regarding the pj you select, and if you went with the TV3 I would be surprised if at some point you did not become frustrated due to the calibration restrictions. Not to say that should stop you from buying this pj if other factors outweight it.
| Originally posted by Thomas Marshall I think Dwin is thinking out of the box, good for them. |
As was already pointed out here - to each his own. For many the other benefits of the pj will outweight the calibration restriction. But I have a good feel for your level expectations regarding the pj you select, and if you went with the TV3 I would be surprised if at some point you did not become frustrated due to the calibration restrictions. Not to say that should stop you from buying this pj if other factors outweight it.
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Daniel - I have to respectfully disagree with your view. It simply is not possible to make an accurate D65 out of the box calibration. There are many factors that influence a proper calibration, including manufacturing variances in the pj itself, age of the bulb, screen type and size, errors introduced by equipment electronics such as D/A conversions, and cross light reflections. In addition there is also the chromacity of the primaries and secondaries that needs to be dialed in - and this can vary for the same reasons.
Yes it is true that with the HD2 DLPs its fairly easy for manufacturers to produce a pj that is dialed in decently out of the box and DWIN is no exception. But certainly DWIN offers no advantage there. There is nothing special about the TV3 that makes it dialed in any better than other HD2 DLPs.
My view is very simple. How does it hurt to provide access to some basic calibration controls? For users that are happy without great tweakability, they never have to touch them. For users that want to tweak, its there for the taking. For DWIN that may be worried about end users screwing up settings and pjs coming back, add a "Resent to factory defaults".
So someone please tell me - what's the big deal about making these settings available? Hey, if it doesn't bother you than great its the pj for you. For me its a show stopper and I would never consider this pj as a result - many others I suppose would not care as much.
Put it this way- there is no way that an out of the box TV3 would compare in PQ to another pj in its class such as the S2 or Shark 10K that had been properly ISF calibrated to an end users particular environment, screen, and equipment. Likewise there is no way that an out of the box S2 or Sharp 10K would compare in PQ to a properly ISF calibrated TV3.
| Originally posted by Daniel Hutnicki Without pissing of any calibrators, I agree with Tom that its great that Dwin can create a projector that supposedly comes out pre calibrated so that the user can start watching movies without having to spend additional monies for calibration. On the other hand, projectors can screw up after a while and it would be nice to have someone come to adjust it for you. |
Yes it is true that with the HD2 DLPs its fairly easy for manufacturers to produce a pj that is dialed in decently out of the box and DWIN is no exception. But certainly DWIN offers no advantage there. There is nothing special about the TV3 that makes it dialed in any better than other HD2 DLPs.
My view is very simple. How does it hurt to provide access to some basic calibration controls? For users that are happy without great tweakability, they never have to touch them. For users that want to tweak, its there for the taking. For DWIN that may be worried about end users screwing up settings and pjs coming back, add a "Resent to factory defaults".
So someone please tell me - what's the big deal about making these settings available? Hey, if it doesn't bother you than great its the pj for you. For me its a show stopper and I would never consider this pj as a result - many others I suppose would not care as much.
Put it this way- there is no way that an out of the box TV3 would compare in PQ to another pj in its class such as the S2 or Shark 10K that had been properly ISF calibrated to an end users particular environment, screen, and equipment. Likewise there is no way that an out of the box S2 or Sharp 10K would compare in PQ to a properly ISF calibrated TV3.
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I think Dwin is stepping out of the box by attempting to provide a pre-calibrated solution that is user friendly. However, I didn't say they were completely successful.
I believe in the end of the day we will see products that have the best of both worlds, an easy way to dial in the PJ (the equivalent of a calibration) that is completely user friendly and doesn't require an expert.
Stepping out of the box in this case means shaking off the paradigm of thinking it will always require specialty calibrations and tweaking to achieve a perfect picture, that's our current mind set and I think it will change, that's what I think Dwin is attempting to do.
FYI - I agree with you Lovingdvd, I also hope Dwin gives out the codes, as even though they have a good concept with their direction, they haven't hit the mark yet.
I believe in the end of the day we will see products that have the best of both worlds, an easy way to dial in the PJ (the equivalent of a calibration) that is completely user friendly and doesn't require an expert.
Stepping out of the box in this case means shaking off the paradigm of thinking it will always require specialty calibrations and tweaking to achieve a perfect picture, that's our current mind set and I think it will change, that's what I think Dwin is attempting to do.
FYI - I agree with you Lovingdvd, I also hope Dwin gives out the codes, as even though they have a good concept with their direction, they haven't hit the mark yet.
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I'm still not sure how attempting to provide a pre-calibrated user-friendly solution is unique to DWIN. The InFocus 7200 for example is calibrated very nicely to D65 across the grayscale out of the box and its brightness and contrast settings are almost right on (typically only require a click or two assuming DVD player black level is set correctly).
Instead of DWIN thinking outside of the box, it seems to me they are trying to put their customers inside of one.
I would be very interested to hear just a single valid argument on how hiding their service codes / tweaking ability could possibly be an advantage to anyone but DWIN.
| Originally posted by Thomas Marshall I think Dwin is stepping out of the box by attempting to provide a pre-calibrated solution that is user friendly. However, I didn't say they were completely successful. I believe in the end of the day we will see products that have the best of both worlds, an easy way to dial in the PJ (the equivalent of a calibration) that is completely user friendly and doesn't require an expert. Stepping out of the box in this case means shaking off the paradigm of thinking it will always require specialty calibrations and tweaking to achieve a perfect picture, that's our current mind set and I think it will change, that's what I think Dwin is attempting to do. FYI - I agree with you Lovingdvd, I also hope Dwin gives out the codes, as even though they have a good concept with their direction, they haven't hit the mark yet. |
Instead of DWIN thinking outside of the box, it seems to me they are trying to put their customers inside of one.
I would be very interested to hear just a single valid argument on how hiding their service codes / tweaking ability could possibly be an advantage to anyone but DWIN.
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How about a D65-calibrated pj that is also tweakable (a.k.a. SP7200)? You can buy a lot of cables for the $3k+ price difference, too. Simple--if you want to tweak, avoid the TV3.
Todd/Indy
| Originally posted by Thomas Marshall I think Dwin is stepping out of the box by attempting to provide a pre-calibrated solution that is user friendly. However, I didn't say they were completely successful. |
Todd/Indy
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Quote:
That pretty much sums up my feelings as well.
Also, I would be quite surprised if the service codes don't surface within 6 months, one way or the other.
| Does the calibration issue bother me? Honestly, yes it does, but the other features outweigh it. |
Also, I would be quite surprised if the service codes don't surface within 6 months, one way or the other.
FWIW - the one and only TV3 I've seen measured about 9700K out of the box with a sencore CP5000 at 80IRE (and a couple hundred degrees less at 30IRE).
Every single custom Machine out there.. which the Dwin/Runco/Dreamvison, etc. is..is based on somebody else's hardware..and of course.. SOFTWARE.
One of the conditions of the use of that hardware/software, -may- be that they do NOT allow the end user access to the control software, as it would enable access to the stock units from that same company. Figure it out. This is my suspicion.
I suspect that Dwin might gladly allow access to the software controls , but are probably not allowed to according to their agreements.
One of the conditions of the use of that hardware/software, -may- be that they do NOT allow the end user access to the control software, as it would enable access to the stock units from that same company. Figure it out. This is my suspicion.
I suspect that Dwin might gladly allow access to the software controls , but are probably not allowed to according to their agreements.
I don't think DWIN will ever release the service menu code until they program a factory reset option...unfortunately, IMHO, the chances of them ever adding an option for a factory reset are better than the chances of them releasing the service code...oh no, I've gone cross-eyed.
edit - I think I may have meant the other way around (better chance of a service code divulgence than a factory reset)...regardless, my eyes are still crossed, and the point was that neither will ever happen (again, IMO).
edit - I think I may have meant the other way around (better chance of a service code divulgence than a factory reset)...regardless, my eyes are still crossed, and the point was that neither will ever happen (again, IMO).
Ken,
Dwin is not held hostage by another company when it comes to the TV3 service code. This is a sole decision that is/was made by DWIN's president. He will be the one to change policy if it is to occur. I suggest customers or potential customers that have a concern about it either email, mail or call to recommend/insist a policy change.
Brent Huskins
Media Design
Dwin is not held hostage by another company when it comes to the TV3 service code. This is a sole decision that is/was made by DWIN's president. He will be the one to change policy if it is to occur. I suggest customers or potential customers that have a concern about it either email, mail or call to recommend/insist a policy change.
Brent Huskins
Media Design
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