As a followup, here is the info from antennaweb.
red - vhf...KAIT-DT 8.1 ABC JONESBORO AR 74° 38.7 9
red - vhf...KAIT-DT 8.1 ABC JONESBORO AR 74° 38.7 9
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Installer says OTA Signal not guaranteed, will not refund - Should I try it?
I posted this on TivoCommunity, but decided to post here too, since I am pressed for time:
Ok, I am at a loss. I am having an HD Tivo installed tomorrow, which I ordered thorugh DirecTV. There are no locals in my area (north central Arkansas), and I can get waivers for NBC, CBS and Fox (out of Little Rock). Unfortunatley, there is a smaller city that has an ABC station and they won't grant a waiver.
I told DirecTV I wanted an OTA antenna, which they are going to charge $99 for. Tonight the installer called and asked me if I wanted the OTA antenna, because they don't guarantee that there will be an acceptable signal. He said that nobody in this area has requested an OTA antenna, so he doesn't know if he can get the station. Most people in this are have switched to Dish, because they offer Little Rock locals.
I am really torn, because DirecTV turned off my ABC about five years ago, after I had ABC for the first 3 or 4 years. I would really like to get ABC back.
The station is 37 miles away (according to Antennaweb) and they say I need a red-VHF (medium directional) antenna.
Does anyone know if I am likely to be able to pick up this signal? I don't want to throw away the $100 if it is unlikely that I will pick up a station at this distance. On the other hand, I would love to finally get ABC again. This ABC station is the only one I need to get, so the antenna can be aimed to fine tune this one station.
For what it's worth, I can pick up the audio for the ABC station on my small handheld scanner (police band type scanner).
Thanks in advance for advice, since I need to make a decision by the morning.
Ok, I am at a loss. I am having an HD Tivo installed tomorrow, which I ordered thorugh DirecTV. There are no locals in my area (north central Arkansas), and I can get waivers for NBC, CBS and Fox (out of Little Rock). Unfortunatley, there is a smaller city that has an ABC station and they won't grant a waiver.
I told DirecTV I wanted an OTA antenna, which they are going to charge $99 for. Tonight the installer called and asked me if I wanted the OTA antenna, because they don't guarantee that there will be an acceptable signal. He said that nobody in this area has requested an OTA antenna, so he doesn't know if he can get the station. Most people in this are have switched to Dish, because they offer Little Rock locals.
I am really torn, because DirecTV turned off my ABC about five years ago, after I had ABC for the first 3 or 4 years. I would really like to get ABC back.
The station is 37 miles away (according to Antennaweb) and they say I need a red-VHF (medium directional) antenna.
Does anyone know if I am likely to be able to pick up this signal? I don't want to throw away the $100 if it is unlikely that I will pick up a station at this distance. On the other hand, I would love to finally get ABC again. This ABC station is the only one I need to get, so the antenna can be aimed to fine tune this one station.
For what it's worth, I can pick up the audio for the ABC station on my small handheld scanner (police band type scanner).
Thanks in advance for advice, since I need to make a decision by the morning.
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The antenna you get when you order from D* is not directional so it may not work. You would probably be better off getting an antenna somewhere else and installing it yourself if you are mechanically inclined at all. There are a lot of members here that coulld point you in the right direction for an antenna.
Ok, if it is non-directional, I doubt it would work at 37 miles.
Does the fact that I can pick up the audio portion of the analog VHF signal with good signal strength on my scanner sound like a good sign that I should be able to get useable signal strength?
Does the fact that I can pick up the audio portion of the analog VHF signal with good signal strength on my scanner sound like a good sign that I should be able to get useable signal strength?
Quote:
Here's the FCC database info for KAIT:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=kait
Note the links for "Service Contour Map" under each record. There are two records for digital transmitters; the second one (with 18 kW power) probably reflects the current situation. If you fall within the contour, you have a good chance with a decent outdoor antenna. Even if you're a bit outside the contour, a very good antenna plus a preamp will probably get you a decent signal.
[added: I just looked at the map for the 18 kW record, and it doesn't have a service contour on it! I don't know what's up with that.]
I see KAIT uses VHF channel 9 for its digital signal, so you need an antenna that can do VHF. If you don't think you'll ever want to get your other locals OTA, you could consider an antenna designed for the high-VHF channels (7-13) only, because they're not as bulky as antennas (with similar sensitivity) for the entire VHF range. The low VHF channels have longer wavelengths, which require longer antenna elements.
| Originally Posted by Tnedator As a followup, here is the info from antennaweb. red - vhf...KAIT-DT 8.1 ABC JONESBORO AR 74° 38.7 9 |
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=kait
Note the links for "Service Contour Map" under each record. There are two records for digital transmitters; the second one (with 18 kW power) probably reflects the current situation. If you fall within the contour, you have a good chance with a decent outdoor antenna. Even if you're a bit outside the contour, a very good antenna plus a preamp will probably get you a decent signal.
[added: I just looked at the map for the 18 kW record, and it doesn't have a service contour on it! I don't know what's up with that.]
I see KAIT uses VHF channel 9 for its digital signal, so you need an antenna that can do VHF. If you don't think you'll ever want to get your other locals OTA, you could consider an antenna designed for the high-VHF channels (7-13) only, because they're not as bulky as antennas (with similar sensitivity) for the entire VHF range. The low VHF channels have longer wavelengths, which require longer antenna elements.
Thanks for the advice so far. I went ahead and looked at the FCC info (wish they had the countour info on the map, and plotted it on Google Earth.
I live on a ridge line at about 484' (ground level, antenna would be about 500'). As you move East towards the tower, the ground rises to about 505' over the next 1-2 miles, and then drops into a valey that is between 200-300' high with no more ridgelines between my house and the station. The tower sits in that valley and the FCC data says the tower is 2050 feet above sea level, meaning the tower sits about 1500' above the level of my antenna, with nothing, including the top level of houses and trees above say 550'- 600' between me and the tower..
Not sure if that info makes it any clearer as to whether or not I would likely get reception.
I live on a ridge line at about 484' (ground level, antenna would be about 500'). As you move East towards the tower, the ground rises to about 505' over the next 1-2 miles, and then drops into a valey that is between 200-300' high with no more ridgelines between my house and the station. The tower sits in that valley and the FCC data says the tower is 2050 feet above sea level, meaning the tower sits about 1500' above the level of my antenna, with nothing, including the top level of houses and trees above say 550'- 600' between me and the tower..
Not sure if that info makes it any clearer as to whether or not I would likely get reception.
I get great signals from 3 markets: at 30 miles, 40 miles, and 55 miles. From Wingegard or Channel Master you will need a good quality 40-60 mile antenna. Have not read this thread but, it seems, you will want other OTA HD stations if they are out there (or will be). I would probably buy a VHF-UHF antenna, directional. You will need a rotor somewhere along the line. Be sure, when antenna is installed, it is aimed directly at that transmitter. I have confidence you will be able to get it; unless, you try, you will never know. Maybe buy antenna somewhere you can return it..just in case. It is always as good (or better) to pick up local stations via an antenna and cheaper in the long run.
I doubt I will ever pickup any other stations except for this one ABC. The city 40 miles away only has an ABC station, and due to its size, likely will never get another affiliate (or at least not for a long time). The other stations (all four networks) are between 83 and 95 miles away.
Do you have rabbit ears or anything like that you could use to see how your channel 8 analog reception is? The most important signal quality is absence of "graininess", since that is most directly related to signal strength. The next most important is absence of ghosts, but with rabbit ears, you will be susceptible to ghost images even if you are receiving a signal that could be developed adequately with the YA-0713 antennas linked above.
If channel 8 is not there or really unwatchable, can you have someone hold the rabbit ears on the rooftop while you watch the TV picture (or if you are a one-man-band, you could bring the TV up on the roof with you). If you can develop a watchable picture with rabbit ears on the roof, then your chances are pretty good that you can get digital reception with a 7-13 antenna. Beyond that, further contemplation of the details of your local topography won't settle anything. This ain't rocket science.
If channel 8 is not there or really unwatchable, can you have someone hold the rabbit ears on the rooftop while you watch the TV picture (or if you are a one-man-band, you could bring the TV up on the roof with you). If you can develop a watchable picture with rabbit ears on the roof, then your chances are pretty good that you can get digital reception with a 7-13 antenna. Beyond that, further contemplation of the details of your local topography won't settle anything. This ain't rocket science.
For your situation, you need a Winegard YA-1013, which is designed for channels 7-13 only. After analog shut-off in 2009, KAIT-DT will move back to Channel 8. For a pre-amp, get the Winegard AP-3700.
There is also a PBS station in Jonesboro (KJET). If you decide you also want to pick-up that station, add the Winegard PR-9032 UHF antenna and Channel Master 0549 UHF/VHF combiner to your shopping list. Change the per-amp to a Channel Master 7777.
There is also a PBS station in Jonesboro (KJET). If you decide you also want to pick-up that station, add the Winegard PR-9032 UHF antenna and Channel Master 0549 UHF/VHF combiner to your shopping list. Change the per-amp to a Channel Master 7777.
Quote:
So you have a clear line of sight to the transmitter. It's 37 miles away and puts out 18 kW.
I have a digital station on channel 8, 68 miles away, putting out 44 kW. Assuming the signal falls off with the inverse square of the distance, your signal should be about (18/44)*(68/37)^2 = 1.4 times times stronger than mine, which works out to about 1.5 dB. Your terrain conditions look more favorable than mine, so it's probably even stronger.
I get very good reception on my channel 8, except for some nearby-generated impulse noise, with a large VHF/UHF combo antenna (Radio Shack VU-190XR) on the roof, and a Channel Master 7777 preamp. The Winegard high-VHF antenna mentioned earlier has a couple dB more gain at channel 9, so it should work well. Even the smaller Radio Shack combos should be OK, because they're only a dB or so lower than mine at channel 9. For a detailed comparison, see
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
and scroll down a way for the graph that compares some VHF antennas.
You can safely use a smaller preamp than the 7777. I also got good reception on channel 8 with a smaller indoor distribution amp (10 dB net gain after splitting the signal, I think; with the 7777 I get about 16 dB net after splitting).
| Originally Posted by Tnedator the tower sits about 1500' above the level of my antenna, with nothing, including the top level of houses and trees above say 550'- 600' between me and the tower.. |
I have a digital station on channel 8, 68 miles away, putting out 44 kW. Assuming the signal falls off with the inverse square of the distance, your signal should be about (18/44)*(68/37)^2 = 1.4 times times stronger than mine, which works out to about 1.5 dB. Your terrain conditions look more favorable than mine, so it's probably even stronger.
I get very good reception on my channel 8, except for some nearby-generated impulse noise, with a large VHF/UHF combo antenna (Radio Shack VU-190XR) on the roof, and a Channel Master 7777 preamp. The Winegard high-VHF antenna mentioned earlier has a couple dB more gain at channel 9, so it should work well. Even the smaller Radio Shack combos should be OK, because they're only a dB or so lower than mine at channel 9. For a detailed comparison, see
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
and scroll down a way for the graph that compares some VHF antennas.
You can safely use a smaller preamp than the 7777. I also got good reception on channel 8 with a smaller indoor distribution amp (10 dB net gain after splitting the signal, I think; with the 7777 I get about 16 dB net after splitting).
Ok, some good news and bad news. The bad news is that the installer showed up with a DB2 UHF antenna, when the only channel I wanted to receive was a VHF station. 
The good news is that I at least have my HDTV dish and antenna mast mounted in a place with a clean shot towards the station I want to get, and a coax run direct from that mast to my reciever. A much more professional job then I would have ever done.
They didn't finish until after 7:00, so it was too late to call their office. They said it wasn't the type of antenna they usually used, but that is what their warehouse gave them.
The other good news is that while I am not picking up ABC (VHF 38 miles away), the DB2 is picking up a PBS station 2* off the path of the ABC station, and 10 miles further out (48 miles). I am getting about a 75 signal strength on the UHF PBS station.
The installer told me to call Ironwood customer service and tell them it was the wrong antenna, and they should send someone out with a correct one. Now that I have the cable run, I am going to push for them to not charge me for the Antenna and tell them I will ship it back to them, and then get my own.
Even though I know they can no longer stop me, my home owners association frowns on antennas. Most of the recommended antennas look to be on the large side. Are their any medium directional VHF antennas that aren't too much bigger than the DB2?
The good news is that I at least have my HDTV dish and antenna mast mounted in a place with a clean shot towards the station I want to get, and a coax run direct from that mast to my reciever. A much more professional job then I would have ever done.
They didn't finish until after 7:00, so it was too late to call their office. They said it wasn't the type of antenna they usually used, but that is what their warehouse gave them.
The other good news is that while I am not picking up ABC (VHF 38 miles away), the DB2 is picking up a PBS station 2* off the path of the ABC station, and 10 miles further out (48 miles). I am getting about a 75 signal strength on the UHF PBS station.
The installer told me to call Ironwood customer service and tell them it was the wrong antenna, and they should send someone out with a correct one. Now that I have the cable run, I am going to push for them to not charge me for the Antenna and tell them I will ship it back to them, and then get my own.
Even though I know they can no longer stop me, my home owners association frowns on antennas. Most of the recommended antennas look to be on the large side. Are their any medium directional VHF antennas that aren't too much bigger than the DB2?
"Even though I know they can no longer stop me, my home owners association frowns on antennas. Most of the recommended antennas look to be on the large side. Are their any medium directional VHF antennas that aren't too much bigger than the DB2?"
Not really, they need to be that way for VHF reception.
Not really, they need to be that way for VHF reception.
Two things. Your home owners association can't tell you to take down the antenna (it's against the law), no matter if it's in a contract or not.
Also, VHF antennas are larger than UHF antennas due to their wavelength. Just something you're going to have to deal with.
btw, I can pick up a VHF station (channel 5) that broadcasts at 10kW at 92 miles away. This is using a cut single-channel antenna (very large) and preamp.
Also, VHF antennas are larger than UHF antennas due to their wavelength. Just something you're going to have to deal with.
btw, I can pick up a VHF station (channel 5) that broadcasts at 10kW at 92 miles away. This is using a cut single-channel antenna (very large) and preamp.
taz291819 said:Two things. Your home owners association can't tell you to take down the antenna (it's against the law), no matter if it's in a contract or not.
QUOTE]
I know, that's why I said above that I know they can no longer stop me, but there are no other houses in the neighborhood with antennas, so I just want to be as subtle as possible.
I'm the only house on my street with an antenna on the roof, only been asked one or twice what it's for, my neighbors don't seem to care.
Quote:
from a post I did a few days ago.
here's a guy who actually measured the net gain on the cm4228 for vhf ch 7-13
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
see net gain...cm4228 in dbd (up and down) - most antenneas are measured in dbd...but look out in measurements dbi=dbd +2.14
ch
7 0dbd
8 -4
9 +3
*10 +6
*11+5
12-2
*13 +4
lets compare gain just on ch 9 (from test above)
uhf only
cm4228 +3
pr8800 -3
cm4221 -14
db8 -19
sharpshooter --11
squareshooter -22
vhf/uhf combos
winegard
hd 7080p +9.5
hd7082p +10.9
hd7084p +12.0
hd8200p +12.6
channel master
cm 3016 +8.7
cm3018 +9.0
cm3020 +9.9
cm3677+8.0
cm3679 +7.9
cm3678 +9.6
cm3671 +11.0
ch 7-13 vhf yagis
6 element +7
13 element +10
for ch 9 on paper looking at a chart and a graph
cm4228 +3.
to put things into perspective...
-we are talking silver sensor/ square shooter uhf type performance on ch 10 and 13 with the cm4228... look at the net gain on the chart for these antennas!
-ch 9,10,11, and 13 are in the positive...ch 8 is kinda low...others negative...the dips on the graph are real deep and narrow...this means if the testing was off even a tadd, the dip could be moved to the left or right affecting performance.
-from the gain levels we are probably talking yellow, green, lt green as ok...going up to red , blue purple, the results would lessen
-we are talking good on ch 9,10,11, and 13...rest a crapshoot
-***the variables associated from user to user differ...terrain, height above sea level, transmit powers. home construction materials (for attic installs), etc.
so yes, there are going to be reports of good reception and even bad. The universal measurement of antenna strength is dbd or dbd + 2.14=dbi.
In general, antenna performance with dbd of less than 6 is marginal.
What does marginal mean?
-subtract coax losses
-subtract splitter losses
-subtract signal losses if installed in an attic
-net result does not leave much gain.
The numbers above offer a comparison using a consistant form of measurement.
The variables mentioned above *** are giving us the variation in reception...and the pissing matches we read at the forums.
| Originally Posted by jtbell So you have a clear line of sight to the transmitter. It's 37 miles away and puts out 18 kW. I have a digital station on channel 8, 68 miles away, putting out 44 kW. Assuming the signal falls off with the inverse square of the distance, your signal should be about (18/44)*(68/37)^2 = 1.4 times times stronger than mine, which works out to about 1.5 dB. Your terrain conditions look more favorable than mine, so it's probably even stronger. I get very good reception on my channel 8, except for some nearby-generated impulse noise, with a large VHF/UHF combo antenna (Radio Shack VU-190XR) on the roof, and a Channel Master 7777 preamp. The Winegard high-VHF antenna mentioned earlier has a couple dB more gain at channel 9, so it should work well. Even the smaller Radio Shack combos should be OK, because they're only a dB or so lower than mine at channel 9. For a detailed comparison, see http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html and scroll down a way for the graph that compares some VHF antennas. You can safely use a smaller preamp than the 7777. I also got good reception on channel 8 with a smaller indoor distribution amp (10 dB net gain after splitting the signal, I think; with the 7777 I get about 16 dB net after splitting). |
here's a guy who actually measured the net gain on the cm4228 for vhf ch 7-13
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
see net gain...cm4228 in dbd (up and down) - most antenneas are measured in dbd...but look out in measurements dbi=dbd +2.14
ch
7 0dbd
8 -4
9 +3
*10 +6
*11+5
12-2
*13 +4
lets compare gain just on ch 9 (from test above)
uhf only
cm4228 +3
pr8800 -3
cm4221 -14
db8 -19
sharpshooter --11
squareshooter -22
vhf/uhf combos
winegard
hd 7080p +9.5
hd7082p +10.9
hd7084p +12.0
hd8200p +12.6
channel master
cm 3016 +8.7
cm3018 +9.0
cm3020 +9.9
cm3677+8.0
cm3679 +7.9
cm3678 +9.6
cm3671 +11.0
ch 7-13 vhf yagis
6 element +7
13 element +10
for ch 9 on paper looking at a chart and a graph
cm4228 +3.
to put things into perspective...
-we are talking silver sensor/ square shooter uhf type performance on ch 10 and 13 with the cm4228... look at the net gain on the chart for these antennas!
-ch 9,10,11, and 13 are in the positive...ch 8 is kinda low...others negative...the dips on the graph are real deep and narrow...this means if the testing was off even a tadd, the dip could be moved to the left or right affecting performance.
-from the gain levels we are probably talking yellow, green, lt green as ok...going up to red , blue purple, the results would lessen
-we are talking good on ch 9,10,11, and 13...rest a crapshoot
-***the variables associated from user to user differ...terrain, height above sea level, transmit powers. home construction materials (for attic installs), etc.
so yes, there are going to be reports of good reception and even bad. The universal measurement of antenna strength is dbd or dbd + 2.14=dbi.
In general, antenna performance with dbd of less than 6 is marginal.
What does marginal mean?
-subtract coax losses
-subtract splitter losses
-subtract signal losses if installed in an attic
-net result does not leave much gain.
The numbers above offer a comparison using a consistant form of measurement.
The variables mentioned above *** are giving us the variation in reception...and the pissing matches we read at the forums.
Quote:
The high-VHF (ch 7-13) antennas mentioned earlier come in smaller versions. For example, compare the two versions of the Winegard:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/wya1713.htm (100 inches long, 10 dB gain at ch 9)
http://www.starkelectronic.com/wya6713.htm (50 inches long, 7.3 dB gain at ch 9)
I suspect the smaller one would work OK for you, especially with a pre-amp.
| I just want to be as subtle as possible. |
http://www.starkelectronic.com/wya1713.htm (100 inches long, 10 dB gain at ch 9)
http://www.starkelectronic.com/wya6713.htm (50 inches long, 7.3 dB gain at ch 9)
I suspect the smaller one would work OK for you, especially with a pre-amp.
New subject, although I might need a seperate post. I have read a ton of posts on this forum, and based on those, I think this has been done wrong.
Ok, I had my HD Dish installed, and piggy-backed on the dish mast, is an antenna mast. While I haven't gotten up on a ladder (it is raining right now), there does not appear to be a ground wire hooked to either of the masts, or to the UHF antenna they installed.
Four of the wires (from the built in multiswitch) they ran from the dish, along or inside my gutters, to the other end of the house and then down to the 4x8 multiswitch, which is grounded to the ground near my electical service, which is where my built in coax wiring enters the house.
A fifth coax cable is hooked to the antenna and is run in through the soffet/eave and in to the attic and is run straight to my reicever's OTA input.
So, I have two questions:
First, ignoring the OTA antenna for a moment, is simply running the coax from the LNB's to the grounded multiswitch enough of a ground for the DSS dish?
Second, I am assuming that that since neither the masts or OTA antenna are grounded, that running a cable straight from the antenna to HD Reicer's OTA input is a problem. Correct?
Ok, I had my HD Dish installed, and piggy-backed on the dish mast, is an antenna mast. While I haven't gotten up on a ladder (it is raining right now), there does not appear to be a ground wire hooked to either of the masts, or to the UHF antenna they installed.
Four of the wires (from the built in multiswitch) they ran from the dish, along or inside my gutters, to the other end of the house and then down to the 4x8 multiswitch, which is grounded to the ground near my electical service, which is where my built in coax wiring enters the house.
A fifth coax cable is hooked to the antenna and is run in through the soffet/eave and in to the attic and is run straight to my reicever's OTA input.
So, I have two questions:
First, ignoring the OTA antenna for a moment, is simply running the coax from the LNB's to the grounded multiswitch enough of a ground for the DSS dish?
Second, I am assuming that that since neither the masts or OTA antenna are grounded, that running a cable straight from the antenna to HD Reicer's OTA input is a problem. Correct?
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