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Discussion Starter #1
My nephew has enjoyed my theater over the last couple years and has been in and out of all aspects of the building trade his whole life. Recently he has been asked by a local doctor to help him ad a media room in his basement and the guy wants a kind of stealth type setup where he has one accent wall painted something that becomes a screen when the hidden projector is powered.


He knows I have an involvement in screen paints and asked my help. I had a few samples for him to take and view but mostly what I had were plastic tubs seal up with various concoctions and labeled with cryptic coding. I sent him off with a back seat full of paints and told him make some samples up of each (on scraps of drywall) and mark them like I have the cans marked. I told him stir all of them 10 times more than he thinks they need, Let them dry and do some testing in the actual room with the actual projector.


Two days later I get a call and the first thing he asks is, what kind of paint is this stuff?
I asked why did he ask?
He said I have painted a million things and I have never seen paint flow out as smooth as some of these. All the ones he mentioned were poly enriched mixtures.



The samples were mainly flat neutral grays with different ratios of poly, a few were enriched with metallic.


Without any coaching on what to look for he came back with interesting info on what they saw and basically said some are brighter but with being brighter you seem to notice the surface of the screen. Everyone that viewed them saw vast improvements with the slight gray over the white wall as expected and they all settled on an average neutral gray with just a bump up from flat on the sheen scale.


I told him what to buy and mix and told him after he gets the wall painted out simple they could view it a while and then decide if there was any more advanced stuff they wanted to try as they could go over it easy enough. Once the wall was painted and view with movie content the doctor tells him you are not touching this again! it's perfect


My points being first off it was interesting to hear how much the poly helped in application with a roller, and secondly how subjectively we view perfection.
 

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Thanks Bud!


It's nice to have your beliefs confirmed by someone that knows what they are talking about.


I had kind of forgotten about the polyurethane as an additive until you encouraged me to add some to the Behr 1850 reference gray I was using. Wow what a difference in how it spreads and levels out.


Thanks for getting me to revisit this very useful ingredient.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
One thing I didn't mention that I have found and warned others of when painting with latex paints enriched with poly, is how necessary your painting technique becomes. I have watched many TV shows on HGTV where amateur painters just go at a wall with latex in a Willy Nilly manner rolling out big X's and W's and coming back and filling in the missed spots.


It is very important once the poly is added that you paint with a planed method in mind, that allows you to move across the screen fairly fast and always maintain a wet edge between what you are laying down and what has just been painted. Depending on humidity and temp. The poly loaded paints will get to a tacky point in a few minutes after painting and if you try and paint into those areas the fresh paint wont totally blend into the old and you will raise a different texture. Texture in itself isn't always bad but change in texture across a projection screen is the kiss of death to the image.



My screens have all been brush painted over canvas something no one else has been doing. I go left to right top to bottom keeping the wet edge between rows and never going back up. Most using rollers do vertical strips starting at one side and working across.


Tiddler has done some excellent videos on this method and are a must to watch before painting.
 

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I found the Basic Roller Painting Instructions are suitable for poly enriched paints.




I was going pretty slow because I was think too much about making the demonstration.

In practice the paint should go quicker and probably will not need to be worked as much.
 

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Wow, after doing a little reading around the net I had no idea how much knowledge had been acquired, demonstrated, and subsequently forgotten or lost by the transient nature of the membership.


All the questions being posed about the benefits of adding polyurethane to paint have been addressed here years ago. So I guess it was fortuitous that this experience with your nephew took place at this time.


I am trying to summarize your techniques for fine tuning the gain, outlined in your Simple Screen Paint Solution thread. I dubbed the technique "Dialed-In Gain". I have not gotten to that part of the Quick Reference yet, so pass on any suggestions for what has to be included. As I write it I hope you will monitor my progress and keep me on track and correct.


Not that it is tricky or anything. It is actually quite straight forward and makes perfect sense. Some folks seem to think it is just a matter of dumping some predefined percentage of polyurethane in any base like a paint mix. Maybe this lack of knowledge is what leads them to be so dismissive of some of the tried and true solutions. Maybe we can change some of that. After all sharing knowledge is what forums like this one are supposed to be about, Right?


It's a shame how such simple and effective solutions get lost with time and membership turnover. I am hoping the Quick Reference will not only put all the how-to info in one concise summary, but also prevent some of the basic stuff from getting lost and forgotten.


People just can't seem to accept that simple can be very effective. Ironically those who's mantra is simple seem to be the ones who have lost track of some of the better simple solutions that I thought were common knowledge. There is no doubt that some flashy special order ingredients can take a DIY paint solution into that last few percent of increased performance, if the right ingredients are used, but you really can get most of the way there with ingredients from the local home improvement store. You just need to know which products work best and how to make the best use of them. So I will get back to my own effort to preserve the DIY Screen Community's collective knowledge in the Quick Reference.
 

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Tiddler,


Will you be posting the recipe for the poly paint? I am going to use the light grey recipe with the Behr 4850 exterior flat that you PM'd me.


Would it be better to use poly with this mixture? I am planning on using it with 1/2" melamine coated particleboard.


I'm assuming this would raise the gain? Any ideas what it would raise it to? 1.2 maybe?


Thanks!!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by willise /forum/post/14323647


Tiddler,


Will you be posting the recipe for the poly paint? I am going to use the light grey recipe with the Behr 4850 exterior flat that you PM'd me.


Would it be better to use poly with this mixture? I am planning on using it with 1/2" melamine coated particleboard.


Thanks!!

The 4850 already has a low luster sheen that makes it an excellent OTS screen paint. Adding any polyurethane would more than likely push the gloss too high.


The Dialed-In Gain technique is best implemented with a flat base. The idea is to start with a flat foundation layer. Then apply successive coats with very slightly increased gloss and translucency, until the screen starts to become visible in the image or warm spotting is observed. Then you back off one or two steps.


The 4850 already levels out like a latex+poly mix, and it has reflective characteristics that work well as a screen paint. It actually has the peculiar sheen characteristic of looking flat straight on but from shallow angles it appears to have some sheen. I have also seen this in the Valspar Duramax exterior paint. While I really have no idea why these paints demonstrate this unusual reflective characteristic, I suspect it has something to do with the UV protection and/or the ingredients that make it more durable for exterior use.


Willse, I was wondering if you could check something out for me? When you go to Home Depot to get the 4850, ask if they can mix any of the following tints from the computer database:

Sherwin Williams - SW 6252 "Ice Cube" (RGB 229 230 227)

Benjamin Moore - 2124-60 "Misty Gray" (RGB 230 232 231)

Benjamin Moore - 2126-70 "Chalk White" (RGB 231 233 231)
I am curious to see if this is as problematic at Home Depot as it seems to be at Lowes. If possible get them to print the can stickers and post the tint formulas. That way we can see how the tints compare to the custom tints.
 

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I will go to HD this week and see if they can do that. I suspect they can.


I'll let you know when I have the result.


Thanks!
 

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tiddler,


Do you really work the paint that much, as shown in the video?

Is spraying out of the question for you? CMRA
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA /forum/post/14329865


tiddler,


Do you really work the paint that much, as shown in the video?

Is spraying out of the question for you? CMRA

No I usually don't work it that much. I was distracted with making the video. Typically I can paint a 120" screen in about 10 to 15 minutes.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 /forum/post/14316543


One thing I didn't mention that I have found and warned others of when painting with latex paints enriched with poly, is how necessary your painting technique becomes. .......


........Depending on humidity and temp. The poly loaded paints will get to a tacky point in a few minutes after painting and if you try and paint into those areas the fresh paint wont totally blend into the old and you will raise a different texture. Texture in itself isn't always bad but change in texture across a projection screen is the kiss of death to the image.

I know this has fallen on deaf ears MANY, MANY times...an even stated that it has bad side effects, (mind you by people that have never even tried the product).....but I HAVE and WILL continue to use Floetrol with ALL of my painted screens for the reasons stated above.


It has no side effects and increases working time to the point that having to work so fast against a soon-to-be tacky surface is not a worry. And if you paint horizontally it DOES help in leveling and giving a slightly smotther surface.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highside /forum/post/14333016


I know this has fallen on deaf ears MANY, MANY times...an even stated that it has bad side effects, (mind you by people that have never even tried the product).....but I HAVE and WILL continue to use Floetrol with ALL of my painted screens for the reasons stated above.


It has no side effects and increases working time to the point that having to work so fast against a soon-to-be tacky surface is not a worry. And if you paint horizontally it DOES help in leveling and giving a slightly smotther surface.

I have used the Floetrol and do agree that it does help extend the dry time and also the leveling to some degree. I stopped mentioning it because the local Home Depot stopped carrying it and gave me the impression the product was discontinued.


I have not really tried painting anything laying horizontal because, that was not going to be an option for me, and anyone painting the wall. It does stand to reason that gravity would be on the side of helping to level the paint though. So if painting the screen laying down is an option I would be inclined to go that way. I guess you would have to use a broom handle on the roller to be able to reach across the screen though.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler /forum/post/14333061


It does stand to reason that gravity would be on the side of helping to level the paint though. So if painting the screen laying down is an option I would be inclined to go that way. I guess you would have to use a broom handle on the roller to be able to reach across the screen though.

Yes, you are correct. I used a broom handle and let the roller fo all of the work, weight wise.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler /forum/post/14333061


I guess you would have to use a broom handle on the roller to be able to reach across the screen though.

I've done a few on the floor without an extension handle, but its a painful abdominal / lower back workout!
 

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Discussion Starter #15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Highside /forum/post/14333016


I know this has fallen on deaf ears MANY, MANY times...an even stated that it has bad side effects, (mind you by people that have never even tried the product).....but I HAVE and WILL continue to use Floetrol with ALL of my painted screens for the reasons stated above.


It has no side effects and increases working time to the point that having to work so fast against a soon-to-be tacky surface is not a worry. And if you paint horizontally it DOES help in leveling and giving a slightly smotther surface.

I have posted a few times that my dad swore up and down about the value of Floetrol and he always used it when painting around the house. I haven't tried it in years I remember back the first time you or someone suggested it here a bunch of people said it wasn't recommended for screens but I never did hear why and I have heard many people say they have used it and it works well.


Have you used it with paint and poly mixed? It delays the drying time I know that but given two samples one with and one without would we see any difference in the finished surface once dry?


Thanks for bringing it up again.
 

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With regard to the addition of polyurethane causing the paint to dry more quickly, I do believe I have witnessed this. However it seemed to vary from one brand to another. I had no problems this way with the Minwax Clear Satin Polycrylic either in the RSMM/SF type mixes or when added to a base paint. I did however have more trouble when experimenting with the Behr polyurethane.


A related issue I have seen commented on, is that adding water to thin a paint will cause it to dry faster. This seems counter intuitive but may also be true. Then there is good old Behr Faux Glaze, which is supposed to extend dry time. Too bad it also adds a significant amount of gloss to a rolled paint. I also tried adding some water when experimenting with both the Faux Glaze and Floetrol. IIRC, my preference was adding the highest recommended amount of Floetrol plaus and an equal amount of water to help level and extend dry time.


Here are some texture macro photos of Behr 1850 without Floetrol and with 10% Floetrol.




Notice the valleys on the right are not as deep (or dark) as the valleys on the left.


NOTE: To make the texture visible the surface must be illuminated from the side or above.


These two photos of the Behr 4850 without and with Floetrol are more telling

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 /forum/post/14336323


I have posted a few times that my dad swore up and down about the value of Floetrol and he always used it when painting around the house. I haven't tried it in years I remember back the first time you or someone suggested it here a bunch of people said it wasn't recommended for screens but I never did hear why and I have heard many people say they have used it and it works well.


Have you used it with paint and poly mixed? It delays the drying time I know that but given two samples one with and one without would we see any difference in the finished surface once dry?


Thanks for bringing it up again.

Bud,


Yes the Floetrol fell on deaf/ignorant ears and when I asked them to prove that it was BAD, the subject seemed to go away. Go figure....


I'm not the kind to argue till I'm blue in the face, rather I just kept smiling to myself that MY SCREEN looked (to me) even smoother than Tiddler's Floetrol pictures. I wish I had taken a picture of my screen surface just to show. And I would wager a high bet that it is smoother, BUT.....


Last week I got the gray bug and repainted my screen one of the fancier mixes. Lets just say it is a spraying formula. I DO NOT like the way this particular screen turned out. SO.....


I'm ordering some more BOC and 2 new pieces of 2x2 splined aluminum for my frame and going to a 120" and most likely repaint with that old UPW/poly/Floetrol/Pearl mix.


I don't remember exactly what the ratio was but my rough guess is 1qt UPW/8oz Pearl metallic/4oz poly/enough Floetrol to get a fairly runny paint that wouldn't cause the roller to slide too much. (trial and error on that ingredient) For the 2 years I had it, subject to very minor UV exposure, it NEVER yellowed or cracked or instantaneously combusted.


Now I'm not against another try at a gray but I don't know if I can try another one over this current screen as I would truley need to re-prime. UGH!!! And I don't want to re-stretch just for a trial.


I really wish someone could send me a 1'x1' sample of an already painted BW 4:1:1 mix because that's all I would need to verify why I don't like the gray I have now.


FLoetrol rules!!!


Rob
 

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I've used Floetrol, poly. and paint together. Maybe some water in the mix as well. I don't think I've seen any differences in the end result. Drying time is still quicker than I'd like. I was just thinking... What if the paint was put in the fridge for a while before painting. Would that slow down the drying time?


I hate to recommend this to anyone, but I'm begining to think sanding after about 3 or 4 coats, and then rolling one final coat might be a good option to limit texture.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbgl /forum/post/14342228


I've used Floetrol, poly. and paint together. Maybe some water in the mix as well. I don't think I've seen any differences in the end result. Drying time is still quicker than I'd like. I was just thinking... What if the paint was put in the fridge for a while before painting. Would that slow down the drying time?


I hate to recommend this to anyone, but I'm begining to think sanding after about 3 or 4 coats, and then rolling one final coat might be a good option to limit texture.

The best way to slow drying down is to keep the temperature cool and raise the humidity. This can be done by lowering the temperature and using a boiling kettle or vaporiser to keep the humidity up.
 
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