[Souki]

I know this has been beaten to death in the past, but I'd thought I'd throw in some comments on recent developments in the display technologies.


I've been reading articles and discussions here and else where in regards to the often heated debate on which is better, LCD or DLP, ever since my curiosity and interest in pursuing a purchase of a front PJ for my future home theatre project. Keep in mind that 9 months ago I didn't know anything about PJ display technology. So I came in here with a fresh mind.


The two things that I wanted in my first PJ purchase was :


- Affordablility

- Gigantic screen (obviously)

- Excellent PQ comparable to CRT

- HDTV resolution


After 9 months of reading these forums, thanks to you guys, I've included many more requirements, many of which I will not bore you with here, as it's beyond the scope of this post. With that background story out of the way I'll begin to make my point.


In the past, it was apparent that most people were leaning towards DLP products. Almost every comparison article I've read, people recommended DLP for video and LCD for presentation. There was comment on how pixelation, screen door effect, lack of black level detail, and how video just wasn't as smooth as comared to DLP. They even boast that DLP's are used today in commercial cinemas.


So I thought to myself, "interesting, perhaps DLP is the way to go". That was before I found out that the cheapest 720p DLP products ranged at $8000 USD and up!! And later I found out that those are 1-chip DLP's using a colour-wheel. The cinemas used 3-chip DLPs costing thousands more.


Now I've got a real problem. I don't have much cash but am willing to pay for good technology if it provides the best-bang-for-the-buck.


On we go. Next stop, looking at LCD's. How bad can it be? I started researching LCD based products, and doing a comparisons between numerous make and models. I found out that LCD's do actually have the screen door effect, pixelation, lacks contrast in turn affecting black level detail, and may degrade over time.


Upon doing further research I discovered that 1-chip DLP's exhibit a 'rainbow effect' that causes head aches. Initially I thought, well, if I just go and demo a DLP product and find out that I'm not affected by this problem, perhaps that's what I'll get.


However, the main reason why I'm getting it in the first place is because I love inviting friends over to my place. Whether for video games, board games, or movies. The fact that even 1% of my friends would be affected and get a head-ache or eye strain is a deal breaker for me.


Over the past few months I've spoken to and read comments from people in regards to these two display technology. I do find it funny that the DLP camp is finding less and less to complain about. The only thing that there is to complain about now is SDE, VB, and the doubt that whether or not the recent LCD makers claim of 2000:1 contrast is actually achievable (not to mention Sony's 6000:1).


Now, it seems, the main and only concern people have is VB. I've read people using their XBox or PS/2 to test this. Uh... yeah...right. That's like testing a Porsche with tires bought from Sears. Ever consider that the cheap de-interlacing in the DVD player itself might be the prolbem? I've read the recent reviews, and it would appear that only when activating the 720p mode of the "source" do VB's often show up. When feeding the LCD panels (AE700) straight 480i everything seems to be fine. Hmmmmmm..... Any computer technician knows that if there's a hardware problem, try elminating the source of the problem by process of elimination. It would appear from recent user reviews the source tends to be the problem (user or equipment).


It's now 9 month later. Armed with enough information and knowledge gathered from these forums to make most dealers look like pre-school children. From this point on, I'll be a strong supporter for LCD products. It may be older than DLP, exhibit its own set of set backs, and may not be as smooth, but it's cheap HDTV now, it's contrast level is gaining momentum due to the new iris technology, it has lens shift , sell more units per quarter, and from the strong positive recent 'regular consumer' review of the newly arrived Panasonic AE700, LCD is making a come back. We will prevail!!


I'm eagerly awaiting for consumer reviews of the Sony VPL-HS51. If DLP product maker's don't drastically lower their prices for their over priced 720p units by CES 2005, I think Panasonic and Sony will start nailing on their coffin. More than $10,000 for a 3-chip 720p DLP when you can get a 720p 3-panel LCD for around $2000-$3500, it's rediculous!!

 

[jvos]

What are you are noting is the typical leapfrog of new product introductions. If you wait another 6 months, it'll swing the other way. And while i love this forum, it tends to be as much about speculation on new, unreleased stuff as it is comments on real products.


So be careful, do your research and ALWAYS let your OWN eyes be the judge.

 

[Souki]

Quote:

Originally posted by jvos What are you are noting is the typical leapfrog of new product introductions. If you wait another 6 months, it'll swing the other way. And while i love this forum, it tends to be as much about speculation on new, unreleased stuff as it is comments on real products. So be careful, do your research and ALWAYS let your OWN eyes be the judge.

Thanks for your comment jvos! Thought no one would read it as it is quite long.


Yeah, my last comment may be a a bit strong, but fact is fact. DLP's do costs more for HDTV resolution, and for people in this 'Under $3500 USD MSRP' forum, money talks.


Anyway, I've done my research, 9 month remember? I'm sure if 50 people write in their own positive reviews about the Panasonic AE700/Sony VPL-HS51 they can't all be wrong. We'll see. So far, everything is positive coming from the recent deliveries of the AE700.


This past year I've never read any product that gained so many pre-orders compared to the AE700 or HS51. Maybe I've just noticed it more because I'm considering pre-ordering one myself!


I seriously wish DLP makers could lower their prices to compete against LCD's, as competition benefits the consumers. But, I'm going to repeat my bold statement and hope that DLP makers are reading, if they can't lower prices to meet consumer demands for HDTV displays, especially with hi-def DVD's coming soon, then consumers will speak loud and clear, with their wallet. I'll be surprised if anyone can release a 3-chip DLP for under $5000 by CES 2005. Mark my words.

 

[DaGamePimp]

Souki ,


--- Well I can honestly say that you nailed one point right on the money ... there will not be a 3-Chip DLP under 5K by CES 2005 .


--- As for the rest of your comments ... nobody knows and we all play the technology game [ which is forever changing ] .


--- My bet is that in the end both LCD and DLP will fail or at least be long forgotten in the world of projection ... better things are yet to come .


--- Now let us hope this thread does not turn ugly ... we all know what threads like this can do to the forum .


----------- Jason

 

[maxleung]

I have to disagree about your comments on LCD VB - I saw VB on my Sanyo PLV-Z1 in ALL sources - component and VGA, 480i, 480p, 540p, etc. Then there are the color uniformity problems and the panel misconvergence.


I think it's merely a matter of (most?) LCD projector manufacturers having terrible quality control - it keeps costs down, enabling them to have prices nearly 50% of the equivalent DLP offering.


I won't support LCD until they fix the above problems in the factory. Arrrgh, i went to digital projection to get AWAY from similar (color uniformity, red push, and horrible grayscale tracking) problems that plagued the analog CRT RPTV sets, dammit!


As far as I'm concerned, most LCD projectors are manufactured with the same care that goes into making the typical CRT RPTV - absolutely none at all!


With that said, it's finally time that manufacturers are wising up to the quality discrepancy between LCDs and DLPs...let's hope that the new LCD models solve the VB, uniformity, and dust blob issues that have always placed LCD in the garbage pile of my mind (along with black and white TV sets).

 

[JimmyFace]

I wouldn't put so much focus on resolution. I've yet to see a screen grab of a 1280X720p LCD projector showing HDTV that looks much better then my 800X450 resolution X1, at least none yet that would make me run out and pay an extra grand for it.


On the contrary my first experience with LCD was the new Hitachi(PJTX100) and while it clearly wasn't calibrated the picture was scarily bad, much worse then my X1 when it was uncalibrated anway. Screen door, colors and contrast were all terrible.


I figure I will go to the AV dealer's show room on my days off and try to calibrate it myself to see what's it capable of, because to be honest LCD was looking very attractive to me as an upgrade - spec and price wise.

 

[TuneyToons]

Hi Souki,


Congrats on your astute observations. I have owned both LCD and DLP projectors, and one thing that swayed me was light output. I own an NEC lt260K because it is capable of 2000+ lumens. I would have bought the Sanyo PLV-70 because I prefer LCD's color saturation, but I needed the extra punch and the Sanyo was double the price.


As others have reiterated before, it depends on what you need. DLP is a very good picture at $2K, if you can stand the 4:3 aspect ratio. I suspect the 16:9 single chippers will come down in price, but nowhere near the light output I need.


take care,

toon

 

[snowmoon]

I would also agree that resolution is ared herring. It's not perfect, but 1024x576 ( 16x9 on 1024x768 ) looked damm good. It's nice since it's basicly 1/4 1080i and 75% of 720p. You can also take a 1024x768 DLP + Panamorph and have a cheap, bright, 16x9 projector. Rainbows and hedaches are for the most part a red herring. The one friend who was bothered by rainbows was quickly taken up in the movie and didn't notice them after that.


I would expect 16x9 DLP's to be as cheap as 4x3 DLP's in a year or less, that's just the nature of the market.


Good luck on making the decision... it's a rough ride in this market since we all have to decide what "issue" we are willing to live with.

 

[Souki]

Before I get going, I hope you don't take my post the wrong way.

Quote:

Originally posted by maxleung I have to disagree about your comments on LCD VB - I saw VB on my Sanyo PLV-Z1 in ALL sources - component and VGA, 480i, 480p, 540p, etc. Then there are the color uniformity problems and the panel misconvergence.

Ummm....The Z1 was released in 2002...I must admit I was referring to the recent entries into the market, namely the AE700 and HS51.

Quote:

I think it's merely a matter of (most?) LCD projector manufacturers having terrible quality control - it keeps costs down, enabling them to have prices nearly 50% of the equivalent DLP offering. I won't support LCD until they fix the above problems in the factory. Arrrgh, i went to digital projection to get AWAY from similar (color uniformity, red push, and horrible grayscale tracking) problems that plagued the analog CRT RPTV sets, dammit!

They're getting better at it because LCD panels are getting cheaper every quarter. If you'll remember when LCD's were first released, they were extremely expensive because it's so hard to make a perfect panel with no dead pixels and quality issues. And to cover their defective panel costs prices had to be high. I believe LCOS is using the same material, just in a different way.


On the flip side, I think you would agree with me that 720p 3-chip prices should have come down by now. They're just riding the current market long enough. However, people are still willing to pay for them.


And to throw in the 1-chip DLP's with a colour wheel and call it affordable DLP just adds insult to the proverbial injury. Now the market is flooded with 2x, 4x, 6x, 4/6/7 segment colour wheel. It's crazy. I just don't get it. How much does manufacturing a 3-chip DLP compared to a 3-panel LCD costs? Anyone know the answer to this? Does it really cost $8,000 to manufacturer a 3-chip DLP product compared to a $2,000 LCD product of the same resolution? And now that LCD's are able to approach 2000:1 contrast, everything else seems elimentry.

Quote:

As far as I'm concerned, most LCD projectors are manufactured with the same care that goes into making the typical CRT RPTV - absolutely none at all!

No, I disagree. The CRT RPTV's are quite good these days, and they sell more too. Though not as much as the tube variety.

Quote:

With that said, it's finally time that manufacturers are wising up to the quality discrepancy between LCDs and DLPs...let's hope that the new LCD models solve the VB, uniformity, and dust blob issues that have always placed LCD in the garbage pile of my mind (along with black and white TV sets).

IIRC DLP products also are affected by dust too. There was some disussion about cleaning the colour wheel here in the forum (SP 4805?). It appears that the PQ deteriorates depending on how much dust has accumulated on the colour wheel.


And DLP's also has a problem known as 'temporal dithering'. This effect mainly happens on 'medium to fast speed pans'. It's a problem similiar to 'color banding' or 'gradient stepping'. Btw this was on a 1-chip DLP RPTV.


Here's the web link, see for yourself :
twentysix.net/HLM507W/artifacts/


If VB is the only thing left for the DLP fans to cling onto as justification for their over priced units, then the LCD people have made significant progress.


In the end, we're more simliar than you may think. We both want quality products for our hard earned money.

 

[Souki]

Quote:

Originally posted by JimmyFace I wouldn't put so much focus on resolution. I've yet to see a screen grab of a 1280X720p LCD projector showing HDTV that looks much better then my 800X450 resolution X1, at least none yet that would make me run out and pay an extra grand for it.

I thought people don't trust screen grabs? I'll tell you what, when I get my 720p LCD, I'll take my 5MP camera and take a snap shot for you.

Quote:

On the contrary my first experience with LCD was the new Hitachi(PJTX100) and while it clearly wasn't calibrated the picture was scarily bad, much worse then my X1 when it was uncalibrated anway. Screen door, colors and contrast were all terrible. I figure I will go to the AV dealer's show room on my days off and try to calibrate it myself to see what's it capable of, because to be honest LCD was looking very attractive to me as an upgrade - spec and price wise.

I'm not sure about the Hitachi, haven't heard much buzz after it was released. Wasn't really interested because the contrast level is only 1200:1

 

[Souki]

Quote:

Originally posted by snowmoon I would also agree that resolution is ared herring. It's not perfect, but 1024x576 ( 16x9 on 1024x768 ) looked damm good. It's nice since it's basicly 1/4 1080i and 75% of 720p. You can also take a 1024x768 DLP + Panamorph and have a cheap, bright, 16x9 projector. Rainbows and hedaches are for the most part a red herring. The one friend who was bothered by rainbows was quickly taken up in the movie and didn't notice them after that. I would expect 16x9 DLP's to be as cheap as 4x3 DLP's in a year or less, that's just the nature of the market. Good luck on making the decision... it's a rough ride in this market since we all have to decide what "issue" we are willing to live with.

That's like saying a 1600x1200 wall paper looks just as good as when MS Windows scales it down to your native desktop resolution of 1280x1024. And now you're talking about spending even more money on a Panamorph lens. This is silly. See, TI has done it again. They've brained washed you guys!!


Hey, thanks for the replies guys. Keep them pouring in. I'll try to respond to as much as I can before it gets wacky.


I hope someone out there who has the power to affect the market place read this and take some kind of action on the DLP side. If you don't take any action, then I would like to thank you for making the LCD makers improve their product so much just to prove to you guys that they can do it too. I'm not expecting this post to really gain that much momentum as I know there's an uphill battle amongst all you DLP supporters out there.


But I'm sure I'm not alone. Here's my poor attempt at a Star Wars analogy.


Right now it feels like May 25, 1977. Opening night for "Star Wars". All the hard work has been done. The final product has been released. People have been saying it can't be done. The audience is full. Everyone is listening and watching. There's a small gathering of people eagerly awaiting the final credits to roll to see what kind of reaction they're gonna get from the audience. The Destroyer just appeared on the screen. It's too quiet. They don't like it...or is it?


AE700, VPL-HS51....you know there's gonna be a sequel,

 

[JimmyFace]

Quote:

Originally posted by Souki I thought people don't trust screen grabs? I'll tell you what, when I get my 720p LCD, I'll take my 5MP camera and take a snap shot for you. I'm not sure about the Hitachi, haven't heard much buzz after it was released. Wasn't really interested because the contrast level is only 1200:1

Like you I've researched projectors all to hell and LCD is starting to look excellent on paper, all I'm saying is I'm going to have to see the picture for myself before I make any decisions.


Unfortunately the only AV dealer in town with an LCD projector doesn't have it calibrated so I have to go by screen grabs for now until I can see the real thing. I was almost ready to buy the new AE700 until my bad experience with the Hitachi. I'll believe the 2000:1 contrast ratio when I see it.

 

[hdkhang]

@Souki:

Just as we shouldn't trust screen grabs, we shouldn't completely trust specs either. That being said, I am in a similar position to you, been reading these forums for some time and have gone through many revisions of choices for projector. The real competition for the AE700 would come in the form of the upcoming NEC HT510, the now reduced price of the SP5700 (at least here in AUS and via some retailers, the SP5700 has been dropped from RRP of $6999 to about $3999, the same expected RRP of the NEC HT510 and a little less than my guess for the expected RRP of the Panasonic AE700). Both the SP5700 and the NEC HT510 only have a 1200:1 contrast ratio and 1024x576 reso. It would be interesting to see a side by side comparison of all three.


Cheers...

Duy-Khang Hoang

 

[JeffKB]

Quote:

Originally posted by Souki Anyway, I've done my research, 9 month remember?

Souki, don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like your 9 months of research included everything except actually seeing a projector.


Reading about projectors and their various strengths and weaknesses is great, but you may discover that some of your preconceived notions are incorrect when you actually see some in action. Both LCD and DLP offer advantages and disadvantages. Some like one and some like the other. No projector is perfect - even the AE700 and HS51 will have some weaknesses that rule them out for some people.


And yes, these type of threads do tend to go downhill in a hurry and this one is probably on borrowed time.

 

[hdkhang]

A further add-on, while it is still fresh on my mind, when resolution is referred to as a red herring... it is taken in the context that all else being equal then obviously numbers would win the game, the problem is that not everything is equal. Also remember, why is it that some DLP pj's are shaper than others etc etc.? Because it is not only the DMD that counts, it is also the optics and processing. Why do some people perfer lower res DLP to higher res LCD? It was the smoothness of the image, another area in which LCD has improved significantly. Also don't take quality control too lightly, if you happen to notice dead pixels, dust blobs and vb etc. it could totally ruin your viewing experience, much the same way that ppl are affected by rainbows, either ignore it and watch movies or remain frustrated and hope that the manufacturer has a decent policy regarding these issues.


Also take note that the topic is a good one, however if it were to fall into the abyss, then your pro-LCD attitude bordering on being anti-DLP is the sort of comments that usually spark these situations.


There is a reason why the market is not completely one sided and it is due to manufacturers making a stand and not giving into TI and paying royalties etc. DLP users are silently very appreciative of LCD continuing to sell strongly in the HT market simply because it would be terrible if TI were to dictate prices and stifle advancement based on their own timeframes. Why didn't TI push higher res DMD's? Because the market was happy to forego the additional res for a more palatable price. If the technology was not selling due to resolution alone, that would be reason enough for TI to release killer HD2+ products at competitive prices. At the end of the day it is the consumers that win anyway so why bother taking sides?


Cheers...

Duy-Khang Hoang

 

[Delvo]

Quote:

Originally posted by JeffKB Souki, don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like your 9 months of research included everything except actually seeing a projector.

That's where I am too. Places where that can be done are rare; the cities I live between aren't small at all, but don't seem to have any such place, and even if I found one, I'm sure they'd only have 2-4 models that weren't the ones I'm interested in anyway. Sure, I live within a couple of hours' drive of a couple of even bigger cities, but I don't know anything about what stores are in them or what's in those stores. Because of that kind of stuff, actually seeing these things in person before buying is, for most people, out of the question... or, at best, not a casual thing as it's generally treated here, but a major task to have to plan and prepare for and then still end up getting limited or no help from. (Nevermind which FP to get, I still don't even know if I'll go for FP or plasma or even RP!)

 

[snowmoon]

Quote:

Originally posted by Souki That's like saying a 1600x1200 wall paper looks just as good as when MS Windows scales it down to your native desktop resolution of 1280x1024. And now you're talking about spending even more money on a Panamorph lens. This is silly. See, TI has done it again. They've brained washed you guys!!

Souki... you have to remember that when talking video, that 1600x1200 image only has 800x600 color resolution and the higest frequencies are only there when full bitrate encoding is used, and it can only cover a small percentage of the totaly image..... so we are scaling down a B&W image that probably does not come close to actually meeting it's absolute frequencies and scaling up the color. The loss there is minimal. I'm not saying that I woudn't want more if I could have it, but my setup ( 1024x768 DLP + Panamoph ) was cheap compared to LCD projectors and is brighter too.


On test patterns and RGB computer work... resolution is king. When dealing with video there is often other factors that surpass pure resolution as deciding factors for visual preference/performance.

 

[maxleung]

Souki, my main gripe is the relatively poor quality control of LCD projectors in general. I did mention that it is probably getting better though.


As for why 3 chip DLP is so expensive...well, in your 9 months of research you would have known that the optics required are quite a bit more expensive - the angular-reflective nature of DLP just doesn't make it easy at all. I think it would be difficult to make them small enough for the average consumer too.


Have you had a chance to demo an LCD and a DLP projector? You may be surprised when you actually see one in person! I suggest demoing a Sony HS20 or HS51 and a Sharp Z12000. I mention those two as they are the most likely ones you will find in your area. There are plenty of Sharp and Sony dealers around. You may even find a Runco and a Panasonic dealer kicking around too.


LCD has good color (but inaccurate - they are never set up right from the factory from what I saw). DLP can sometimes be more 3-dimensional and be smoother and sharper, and the colors track better. VB aka Fixed Panel Noise can be very distracting though - scenes with a lot of sky and clouds will bring them out and give you a dirty-window effect! DLP temporal dithering isn't a big deal, although you may see them in shadow details if you sit close enough - but with the 7 and 8 segment wheels shouldn't be as noticeable. I find that DLP has the least crappy picture overall.


All of the above I have seen myself, in person, at various boutique shops. For what it's worth, I have never seen an LCD RPTV or FPTV that looked anywhere near as good as my Benq 8700+. Although the Sony HS20 wasn't bad...if only the Sony store had the room set up properly...maybe it really wasn't that washed out looking! But, the asking price was the same as my Benq.......


Personally, I'm looking for SXRD to leave LCD and DLP in the dust. Now if only I can find a Qualia to demo in my area....

 

[krasmuzik]

snowmoon,


that is about the best analogy of why HD looks good on SD displays that I have read for a long time.


As far as this thread goes - I don't know what is worse - somebody deciding on projection technology based on what they read rather than see. Or someone deciding on projection technology based on what they see in screenshots filtered by the photographer, then the camera, then the web browser, then the monitor, then the room and proclaiming they have seen it so they have decided.


Reminds me of the three blind mice in the Shrek movies....

 

[Souki]

Quote:

Originally posted by maxleung As for why 3 chip DLP is so expensive...well, in your 9 months of research you would have known that the optics required are quite a bit more expensive - the angular-reflective nature of DLP just doesn't make it easy at all. I think it would be difficult to make them small enough for the average consumer too.

Actually I was never able to find actual data on the manufacturing costs of LCD vs DLP. But if TI can't make cheaper 3-chip DLPs it's going to be a really interesting 2005. Especially when D5 chips will be more common. Infocus has already made the jump. I wonder if NEC or others will follow? Perhaps 3-chip DLP's will mainly be reserved commercial cinemas and insanely rich.