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This is just a qucik note for any folk who may be in Scotland or who wish to come to Scotland for August26th...ie one week from this Sunday.


I hae managed to put together a little show for the enthusiasts in the UK. We'll have a morning session where myself and some industry experts will show folk how to plujg their dvd players and projectors in properly, the consequences of not doing it properly and also going over some technical issues like 2:3 pulldown. Richard Ansell form Snell and Wilcox will be bringing their Test Pattern Generator along form this part and will be on hand for technical advice.


Then in the afternoon we are going to have three dedicated dem rooms running.


Room 1: 7" v 8" v 9" CRT's, incorporating line doubling/scaling/interpolating.

We''ll be using a Seleco7", Electrohome8" and a Barco CineMAX9". Doubling by Iscan, scaling by Vigatec and Interpolating by Snell and Wilcox. We will also have on hand a HTPC should the need arise....


Room 2: LCD v DLP v D'iLA all on a greyhawk screen. We'll also show how adding a progressive scan DVD player can make this much better. LCD's will be Sanyo PLV30 and 60. DLP will be SIM2 HT200DM and HT250, D'iLA is hoped to be one of the new G150HT's.


Room 3: This is a scaler dem room. We'll use a SIM2 HD800 crt. Comparisons will be of Quadscan, GVC1280 Vigatec, RockPLUS, RuncoPFP-11, Home Theater PC (KRYTON).


If anyone is going to be over and fancies coming please just drop me a line. My initial intention was for 20-30 folk to come but we're now at around 70-80. It should be a fun day out.


I have had a request to try and get a web-cam going at it. If anyone here can give me some hints as to how to go about it or whether it'll be any good they would be gratefully received too.


Thanks guys,



Gordon Fraser

[email protected]

ISF calibrations and Home Theater Consultancy.

Coming soon to a Theater near you...........



THIS HAS BEEN POSTED AND CROSS POSTED WITH CONSENT OF THE MODERATORS


[This message has been edited by Gordon Fraser (edited 08-16-2001).]
 

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This sounds fantastic. If you do it again next year, I think I will be due for a trip to Scotland to see it!
 

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Gordon,


Sounds like a great event, please tell people about AVS so they can post their impressions here.


Thanks


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Noah
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Noah,


Lots of them use this fantastic resource that Alan and David provide. I'd guess it'd be hard to stop them posting...just hope they say nice things.


Gordon


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StereoStereo

Intelligent Solutions for Intelligent Homes!


Glasgow,Scotland
 

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I will be going to the "Event" (As we now call it!).

I would like to take this opportunity to thank Gordon for his all efforts BEFORE the event.

His dedication to UK home cinema forums members is invaluable.

He treats novices with respect and patiance, and so called "Experts" with a pinch of salt!.

Gordon has spent months getting this all together, and i bet he hasn't had a full nights sleep.

He has managed to advise people on which direction to take whilst purchasing suitable HC gear, without coming across as if he is trying to sell them something. Very unique!.

Because of the difficulty in the UK of seeing almost any cinema gear in the same place, this event is like all our Christmas's coming at once.


Gordon we salute you!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Nuff said!
 

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Gordon has done an incredible job putting this togther, some of the gear on show is truely high-end. For me it will be a great learning experience since I have never seen most of what will be on show. Hopefully I will come away inspired and ready for my first projector purchase.


Jeff
 

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Quote:
Might I recommend using an HTPC for the LCD and DLP projectors for best results for your demo...
For the Seleco HT200DM at least, that's not going to be as good as running it straight out of a good progressive DVD player. It might help some of the other projectors.


 

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Quote:
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Might I recommend using an HTPC for the LCD and DLP projectors for best results for your demo...

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For the Seleco HT200DM at least, that's not going to be as good as running it straight out of a good progressive DVD player. It might help some of the other projectors.
As I don't have a HT200 to demo I will not say this is untrue but as yet I have seen no outboard scaler (I have never been able to see 20k Farouja <sp> equipment) let alone built in scaler beat the all digital DVD scaling from a HTPC..


Is there a reason why you feel the HT200DM outperforms a HTPC in scaling ?? Is the HT200DM limited in taking a VGA signal in some way that makes a HTPC hard to operate with this PJ ??


Please don't take this as an attack or confrontational as I am stuck in the HT black hole that is Europe and demo rooms / dealers are few and far between, but from what i have seen for DVD source HTPC wins without question..




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Phat, you may be right. I had a brain fart, and I forgot that a HTPC avoids the D/A conversion of an outboard line doubler, and can deal directly with the digital bits on the DVD (that's true, right?). In that case, it's a question of how good the line doubler is in a HTPC, vs. the built-in circuit on something like the Panasonic RP91 DVD player.


Progressive DVD players may not beat HTPC's in most applications, because those comparisons are done on projectors that need scaling as well as line doubling. I'm not sure it's that cut-and-dried with something like the HT200DM that doesn't need scaling on top of the line doubling. There are fewer artifacts produced in line doubling, compared to scaling in both dimensions, so it seems to me that it's easier for the circuit in a DVD player to compete with a HTPC. Right now, the HT200DM is the only projector on the market (that I'm aware of), which can take advantage of this.


The line doubler in my Panasonic RP91 DVD player doesn't suck. In fact, I can't point to anything in the image that I'd call an artifact from the line doubler. But maybe I'm not being critical enough.


I do feel that a demo or shoot-out for the HT200DM should be done in the way that most people will use the projector… hooked up straight to the output of a progressive DVD player. Besides, one of the most attractive features of the HT200DM is that it works so well, right out of the box, without even any calibration! Just hook it up to a progressive DVD player and go. As good as HTPC's are, I don't think anyone would call it an easy or inexpensive way to improve the image. It's a very complicated and expensive way to improve the image. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif Not everyone wants a keyboard, mouse, and PC in their home theaters. Ease of use is a selling point, and it should be part of any comparison between projectors. If you hook up a HTPC to a HT200DM, you're disguising one of its main selling points.


Has anyone been able to do this kind of comparison between a HTPC vs. a RP91 (or better) DVD player on the HT200DM? If so, I'd love to hear about it.
 

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Foldedpath,


I will not argue with you at all on many of the points that you have mentioned Re HTPC config headaches and setup time and problems but..
Quote:
, I don't think anyone would call it an easy or inexpensive way to improve the image. It's a very complicated and expensive way to improve the image
A HTPC is far from expensive given the job it performs.. If hunting second hand or trawling the AVS classifieds I would expect a workable HTPC to fetch $750 and you can buy pre built systems for a little over the 1k mark now... Remember this id DVD player and scaler in one (as well as a million other things but I wont evangelize now http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif ) Please notice I am not arguing its complexity http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif but to me that is a benefit... It is complex simply because of all it can do.. Want to do any stretch (Read 2.35 Pannie) from any format of DVD ?? Want to reposition your DVD image in your 16x9 panel EG to top align it ?? Want it to be a HDTV tuner ?? Want a MP3 server with associated Giess and Milkdrop 'visualizations' (you must see this on a 100 inch screen !!!) ?? Want to have the main DVD SW applications improving almost every month with upgrade costs of less than a round of 'happy meals' ?? How about a bit of immersive computer gaming (again try this at the peril of any 'spare' time you had left) ?? Or would it interest you to have all of you HT room (or house) X10 controlled so that your Pronto sends one command that dims the lights to off, draws the drapes, fires up the PJ, Starts the SW DVD Player (still don't have an X10 drinks dispenser but you get the picture) sound good ?? Or how about.... Ohh damn I started evangelizing again http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif !!!


Much of the above was just pulling your chain (even if it is true) and I agree with you that the comparison of PJ's doing their own scaling is important to those users who are considering purchasing and operating this way.. to see them at their best however a Radeon equipped HTPC will show what they are capable of (this is the best aspect of HTPC, pure class scaling at a price I can own)... Another side effect of course of showing the same PJ with DVD player source and HTPC source is I think there will be a few more HTPC's in the world http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif !!



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Phat, I probably have a built-in bias against HTPC's because I went through some of the same things in one of my other hobbies; amateur musician home recording. If you want to do 24-bit hard drive recording, you can do it two ways. You can buy a standalone hard drive recorder/mixers, or you can dedicate a computer with a multichannel A/D converter card to the job. That's the equivalent of buying a standalone DVD player or running a HTPC.


The computer is much more flexible at recording, mixing, and post-processing music. There is more available software and more functionality. It's the approach that is increasingly used in pro studios. The hardware-based audio recorder is limited, but it does one thing very well. It's robust. It doesn't crash when you upgrade to the next version of DirectX, or the next version of the OS. When you get some inspiration and want to record it quickly before it fades, you just hit a few buttons and you're rolling. No need to wait five minutes for a PC boot-up. No continuing maintenance issues. To me, that's like popping a DVD in my Panasonic RP91. I have three PC's in my house already, and that's enough. I know more about PC's than is good for me. I've spent part of my life making a living with them, and sometimes I just want to get as far as possible away from the damned things and watch a movie. That's why I love the HT200DM's ability to just take a progressive signal from a DVD player and look terrific, with no need for a scaler, Panamorph, HTPC, or other gadgets. It's a pure DVD movie machine.


I also don't want to get sucked into PC-based video when it looks like HDTV is moving in a direction (encryption and hardware handshaking) that will keep full-resolution HDTV movies permanently locked away from PC access. The days of the HTPC approach may be limited, at least in terms of scaling premium content HDTV. But that's another discussion that I won't bore everyone with here. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


Anyway, enough of that. Good luck to the Scotland demo folks, and let us know how it turns out!
 

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Well i've just started to reflect on what I can only describe as the best "Event" of the year!. The demo gear was set up without being biased towards any manufacturer. "What you see is what you get" etc.

Also please note I'am fairly new to Home cinema(about nine months or so) so some of the names of equipment may not be accurate etc.

There was some suprises, but let me make it clear that some gear may not have been set up to show it's best. So i can only comment on what i saw "on the day".

This is not a slur on Gordon and the team, in fact just the opposite!. I thought all the gear was set up to a very very high standard, but Gordon advised us that some of the gear may not be setup perfectly!.(He really knows his stuff!)

The processors/interlacers where:


Iscanpro/Quadscan-Elite/Vigatec(1280?)/Rock+/RuncoPFP 11 /Kryton(DIY-HTPC!)

The Iscan was a good choice for LCD/DLP etc but of limited use with a CRT. The Quadscan/Rock+/Runco where roughly the same, one being better at some things or worse etc. The rock+ was better with colours. The Runco had some trouble with de-interlacing, but I spoke with Gordon and he mentioned this may have been a set-up issue.

The stars of the day where the Vigatec and "Kryton", the homemade HTPC. Kryton did much better than i thought was possible with a HTPC. The picture clarity/deinterlacing was stunning, the only real drawback(apart from having to boot windows etc) was a slight judder now and again and the picture sometimes had a small wobble on slow pans etc.

The winner to me was the Vigatec(in this demo for the money etc). The scaling/deinterlacing was excellent, the picture smooth and film like with good colour control. The Vigatec would win my money if i needed a processor etc.

The fixed panel Projectors where:

SanyoPLV30/SonyVW10HT/JVC D-ilaG10(I think!)/Sim200DM/Sim250

The new Sim200DM suprised me as I normally see "Rainbows" on DLPs, so the new "Dual mode" works for me!. The picture of the 200DM was also impressive, black being very good (but not CRT black yet). I would be very happy to buy "DLP/DMD" now!.

This was my first view of a D-ila and i liked the very "filmic" look it gave. But black level wasn't much better than the SonyVW10HT/Sim250(maybe i just expected more). But the picture was much smoother. I feel the D-ila may have needed more tweaking, to show it's best etc. It had a very loud fan and heated the already hot the room to sauna levels!. So until D-ila prices come down including the bulb costs, DLP will still be the best cost/performance fixed panel projector(unless LCDs fix the black level issue).


On the CRT front there was:

Electrohome 8"/Barco Cine7 with line tripler/Barco Cinemax 9". The Electrohome didn't have a chance. I believe it may have had a couple of thousand hours(20,000 some said!) under it belt or something because the other two where miles ahead. So its unfair to compair it.

The big suprise to me was the Cine7, using its own limo line tripler it gave a very smooth line free image. I could almost touch the screen before you could see it was a "video" image etc. Its the first time i've seen an image that looked just like film!. Gordon had worked his magic, so there was zero bleed or convergence errors to marr the image. The Cine7 would be my first choice for picture versus cost.

But the "Stunning image" of the day had to go to the Cinemax. It was fed via a modified Pioneer 737 with SDI output to a Snell and Wilcox Interpolator Gold processor!(with SDI input). The lot combined costs(inc stewart screen) about £65,000!!!!($90,000 US?).

This presents one problem, how do they improve on perfection?. It was that good, honest!. The vividness/brightness of the picture put all direct view CRT TVs i've seen to shame. The colours so saturated/dense that you could fall into them. I don't know the contrast ratio but lets put it this way, people where stunned into silence and then cries of wow! when they had regained there senses!. People talk about a "3D" type picture or a sense of depth. Well this has it in buckets. Its the true "looking through the window" experience. I feel no "real" cinemas could match this picture!. The image was totally converged/focused, text was as good as a LCD/DLP etc.In fact text appeared better than my SonyVW10HT as that can be half a pixel out etc!.

I'm sorry if this review wasn't as technical as some may have liked, but Gordon will know doubt be posting here soon. So get your questions ready for him!!!.





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Nuff said!
 
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