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Discussion Starter #1
Happy 4th to all!


Do we have a master list of all the Internet Direct Speaker companies ( subs excluded ) ? I'm sure most of us agree that when it comes to " bang for your buck ", ID companies have the most to offer.


Is there also a listing of all the ID amplifier companies?


thx guys! Time to break out the grill, and some cherry bombs :)
Enjoy
 

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I don't know just who is supposed to think that way, but I do not agree.

It all depends on what you want, and what you want to pay.

Most companies that make the very best speakers do not sell internet direct, but through dealers of some sort.

If you want speakers that are very good for their price, the Dayton B652 speakers are hard to beat.

Parts Express sells them for under $40 per pair and they sound better than most other speakers selling for under $200 per pair.
 

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Happy 4th to all!


Do we have a master list of all the Internet Direct Speaker companies ( subs excluded ) ? I'm sure most of us agree that when it comes to " bang for your buck ", ID companies have the most to offer.


Is there also a listing of all the ID amplifier companies?


thx guys! Time to break out the grill, and some cherry bombs :)
Enjoy
This is a great idea!
They do offer a better bang for the buck.

I will start by giving my own little contribution and hopefully other will add so a list can be started.

Stuff from ID company that I own;
Speakers
http://www.aperionaudio.com/speakers/verus-home-theater-speakers
Subs
http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers
Amp/processor
http://www.outlawaudio.com/
http://shop.avscience.com/ I got my Marantz AV8801 from them


Some stuff from other ID company that lots of people like but never heard since I don't own them
Speakers
http://www.svsound.com/speakers/ultra-series
Subs
http://www.powersoundaudio.com/
Amp/processor
https://emotiva.com/

Their is many more and hope other member add their favorite.

This is a great idea and could become a sticky that could be a great tool for shopping.


Ray
 

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I wish that there would be a thread (sticky) that would group in price, the "best bank for your buck" in each category FS, BS, and Subs. The price points would be bracketed and reflect the going rate or frequent sale prices, no MSRP. Each bracket would have around 5 choices but not really ranked. Maybe a few notes like "bright" or "warm" where applicable.

Example: FS - Tower Speakers >$400 per pair

1. AJ Pioneer SP-FS52-LR
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000E27YSK/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2T6FE4RF554G&coliid=I3779ZHUO9ECZ3&psc=1

2. Infinity Primus P363
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0046A8R3M/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=3UY5X02EDVQDB&coliid=IO22NO9YH8BFT

etc....

Some benefits would be: a reduction of the "duplicate" threads; the introduction of Internet Direct products within price points; and a real resource to start from as many of us only have BestBuy.

I set up a modest (relatively inexpensive) home theater a few years ago base on research on this site, NewEgg, and Amazon. Audiophiles can tell me that my Polk Monitor 70II were of poor quality, but I thought the total package sounded good for the money I invested. Having to start that process over I'm ready to pull out what little hair I have left. I've been researching for months. I think EmpTek E55Ti is what I will be going with this time, though the Arx line might win me over.

Ok rant over.
 

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I wish that there would be a thread (sticky) that would group in price, the "best bank for your buck" in each category FS, BS, and Subs. The price points would be bracketed and reflect the going rate or frequent sale prices, no MSRP. Each bracket would have around 5 choices but not really ranked. Maybe a few notes like "bright" or "warm" where applicable.

Example: FS - Tower Speakers >$400 per pair

1. AJ Pioneer SP-FS52-LR
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000E27YSK/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2T6FE4RF554G&coliid=I3779ZHUO9ECZ3&psc=1

2. Infinity Primus P363
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0046A8R3M/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=3UY5X02EDVQDB&coliid=IO22NO9YH8BFT

etc....

Some benefits would be: a reduction of the "duplicate" threads; the introduction of Internet Direct products within price points; and a real resource to start from as many of us only have BestBuy.

I set up a modest (relatively inexpensive) home theater a few years ago base on research on this site, NewEgg, and Amazon. Audiophiles can tell me that my Polk Monitor 70II were of poor quality, but I thought the total package sounded good for the money I invested. Having to start that process over I'm ready to pull out what little hair I have left. I've been researching for months. I think EmpTek E55Ti is what I will be going with this time, though the Arx line might win me over.

Ok rant over.
No rant!!
This is the idea!!! :)

We all add as a comuniity to help each other.


Ray
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
I don't know just who is supposed to think that way, but I do not agree.

It all depends on what you want, and what you want to pay.

Most companies that make the very best speakers do not sell internet direct, but through dealers of some sort.

If you want speakers that are very good for their price, the Dayton B652 speakers are hard to beat.

Parts Express sells them for under $40 per pair and they sound better than most other speakers selling for under $200 per pair.



I understand, that's why I said " most " of us would agree with me. ;)


If you think that buying from "dealer" only companies guarantee's a products performance, then you are mistaken.


The dealer's need to make profit....that results in a markup of around 15-30%. A speakers performance is not based on the brand or the price. That's just a silly as saying, " you get what you pay for ". Simply not true.
 

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Most companies that make the very best speakers do not sell internet direct, but through dealers of some sort.

Very true and I would add that those high end companies only sometimes make the very best speakers and would fail miserably at trying to sell their wares customer direct. They do what they do because it is the best option for them.


Consumer direct companies offer more value every time. You can bank on it because returns would swamp a consumer direct company that failed to deliver superior value quickly and put it out of business. For those who either are content with sound that is only 90% as good as the very best or those with shallow pockets, I don't think there is a better option than internet direct.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
No rant!!
This is the idea!!! :)

We all add as a comuniity to help each other.


Ray


Sup Darth! It's funny, most of my equipment was bought straight from the manufacturer, via internet. Yet I can't find a master list anywhere that identifies them. :)


Two examples from my setup include:


PBN Montana speakers - manuf. direct with only a couple dealers worldwide.
Wyred 4 sound Amplifiers - Internet direct only


Both 100% made in the USA. ( California to be precise )
 

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Very true and I would add that those high end companies only sometimes make the very best speakers and would fail miserably at trying to sell their wares customer direct. They do what they do because it is the best option for them.


Consumer direct companies offer more value every time. You can bank on it because returns would swamp a consumer direct company that failed to deliver superior value quickly and put it out of business. For those who either are content with sound that is only 90% as good as the very best or those with shallow pockets, I don't think there is a better option than internet direct.

Well, everyone has an opinion, and you are entitled to yours. On the other hand, you are pushing the idea that your opinion is factual, and I don't buy that at all. Anyone who is always certain that their opinion is a fact has his head screwed on a bit too tight IMO...lol.

Vandersteen has been in business for 30 years, and his Model 2 speakers are the best-selling high-quality audio speakers of all time (well-documented in a Stereophile article a couple of years ago). Customer loyalty is amazing; you almost never see used ones for sale; they are winners and owners keep them a long long time. That would seem to indicate that very good value is perceived by the owners (even though they are 100% made in the USA!).

Vandersteen, and most other speaker manufacturers, feel that only a local dealer can help the buyer to make good buying decisions through direct interaction, and also provide direct assistance with system setup issues.

Direct internet sales only work well for a certain type of buyer, not for the majority, which is why the majority don't utilize that option. Also, the assertion that internet direct companies offer better VALUE is obviously only a subjective opinion that is totally impossible to substantiate.

I bought my Vandersteen Treo speakers because no other speaker I have ever heard offers equal performance for their price IMO; that seems to me to be the only way you can define VALUE. If you know of some internet direct speaker that you think offers equal performance for the same price, that will be a surprise to me (and hard to believe).

The logical implication of your position would seem to be that if you set a price point, some internet-direct speaker will always turn out to be the best-sounding for that price. My experience with many many speakers at many price points leads me to a very different conclusion.

Besides, the simple FACT is that if you look at the speakers that are acknowledged by the experts in the field to be the very best speakers made, such as Focal, Vandersteen, PSB, Wharfedale, B & W, Thiel, Wilson Audio, Aerial, Magico, Dynaudio and others, almost none of their sales are direct internet sales. They sell through dealers.

Once you decide that you will only buy internet direct, you have eliminated 90% of the best speakers in the world; is that smart? It seems rather silly to me to restrict your choices to that extent.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Well, everyone has an opinion, and you are entitled to yours. On the other hand, you are pushing the idea that your opinion is factual, and I don't buy that at all. Anyone who is always certain that their opinion is a fact has his head screwed on a bit too tight IMO...lol.

Vandersteen has been in business for 30 years, and his Model 2 speakers are the best-selling high-quality audio speakers of all time (well-documented in a Stereophile article a couple of years ago). Customer loyalty is amazing; you almost never see used ones for sale; they are winners and owners keep them a long long time. That would seem to indicate that very good value is perceived by the owners (even though they are 100% made in the USA!).

Vandersteen, and most other speaker manufacturers, feel that only a local dealer can help the buyer to make good buying decisions through direct interaction, and also provide direct assistance with system setup issues.

Direct internet sales only work well for a certain type of buyer, not for the majority, which is why the majority don't utilize that option. Also, the assertion that internet direct companies offer better VALUE is obviously only a subjective opinion that is totally impossible to substantiate.

I bought my Vandersteen Treo speakers because no other speaker I have ever heard offers equal performance for their price IMO; that seems to me to be the only way you can define VALUE. If you know of some internet direct speaker that you think offers equal performance for the same price, that will be a surprise to me (and hard to believe).

The logical implication of your position would seem to be that if you set a price point, some internet-direct speaker will always turn out to be the best-sounding for that price. My experience with many many speakers at many price points leads me to a very different conclusion.

Besides, the simple FACT isthat if you look at the speakers that are acknowledged by the experts in the field to be the very best speakers made, such as Focal, Vandersteen, PSB, Wharfedale, B & W, Thiel, Wilson Audio, Aerial, Magico, Dynaudio and others, almost none of their sales are direct internet sales. They sell through dealers.

Once you decide that you will only buy internet direct, you have eliminated 90% of the best speakers in the world; is that smart? It seems rather silly to me to restrict your choices to that extent.



Everyone is entitled to their own opinion here. So your speakers are better than mine I guess...since they sell through dealers?? Maybe you should start your own thread, and see how popular your opinions really are. How many people on this site have Wilson Audio or Magico speakers?? C'mon


If you want to brag about your speakers go to Audiogon....see what they say about your 80lb Vandersteen towers. ENJOY them, they are the best brand in the world. LOL
 

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Sup Darth! It's funny, most of my equipment was bought straight from the manufacturer, via internet. Yet I can't find a master list anywhere that identifies them. :)


Two examples from my setup include:


PBN Montana speakers - manuf. direct with only a couple dealers worldwide.
Wyred 4 sound Amplifiers - Internet direct only


Both 100% made in the USA. ( California to be precise )
All of my equipment is bought on line, including carpet and accessories:D

Well, everyone has an opinion, and you are entitled to yours. On the other hand, you are pushing the idea that your opinion is factual, and I don't buy that at all. Anyone who is always certain that their opinion is a fact has his head screwed on a bit too tight IMO...lol.

Vandersteen has been in business for 30 years, and his Model 2 speakers are the best-selling high-quality audio speakers of all time (well-documented in a Stereophile article a couple of years ago). Customer loyalty is amazing; you almost never see used ones for sale; they are winners and owners keep them a long long time. That would seem to indicate that very good value is perceived by the owners (even though they are 100% made in the USA!).

Vandersteen, and most other speaker manufacturers, feel that only a local dealer can help the buyer to make good buying decisions through direct interaction, and also provide direct assistance with system setup issues.

Direct internet sales only work well for a certain type of buyer, not for the majority, which is why the majority don't utilize that option. Also, the assertion that internet direct companies offer better VALUE is obviously only a subjective opinion that is totally impossible to substantiate.

I bought my Vandersteen Treo speakers because no other speaker I have ever heard offers equal performance for their price IMO; that seems to me to be the only way you can define VALUE. If you know of some internet direct speaker that you think offers equal performance for the same price, that will be a surprise to me (and hard to believe).

The logical implication of your position would seem to be that if you set a price point, some internet-direct speaker will always turn out to be the best-sounding for that price. My experience with many many speakers at many price points leads me to a very different conclusion.

Besides, the simple FACT is that if you look at the speakers that are acknowledged by the experts in the field to be the very best speakers made, such as Focal, Vandersteen, PSB, Wharfedale, B & W, Thiel, Wilson Audio, Aerial, Magico, Dynaudio and others, almost none of their sales are direct internet sales. They sell through dealers.

Once you decide that you will only buy internet direct, you have eliminated 90% of the best speakers in the world; is that smart? It seems rather silly to me to restrict your choices to that extent.
Sorry to disagree:confused:
I would say it it the other way around.

The examples you have mention are great speakers for people that don't care of how much money is to be spead.

I little history about my self.
I kept readind reviews about audio gears and kept changing stuff.
Than went into DIY, and found out how much it actually cost to make a speaker.

It was, an eye opener!
You have mention Dynadio, when I built my previous DIY speakers.
The drivers (mid and tweeter were available but No longer).
I'm I better than sound enginneer? of course not!
But I have learn how much profit is to be made.

The idea of this tread is for Members that are willing to get into this hobby for the best bang for the buck.

Now a day, there is not so many of us, that care about sound and go to convenience like MP3.

This idea is perfect for the ones that care, but not willing to pay the extra $

It is ovious You care for audio.
Lets help each other out, instead of saying "my is better than yours".:cool:

With all respect and best regard

Ray
 

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Happy 4th to all!


Do we have a master list of all the Internet Direct Speaker companies ( subs excluded ) ? I'm sure most of us agree that when it comes to " bang for your buck ", ID companies have the most to offer.


Is there also a listing of all the ID amplifier companies?


thx guys! Time to break out the grill, and some cherry bombs :)
Enjoy
I think this is a good idea. Just don't be surprised when you wake up a dinosaur and they start making a case for why their way should not become extinct.


ID companies are the future and the big speaker companies will inevitably cut out the middle man going ID for themselves or risk going out of business.


A great speaker is a great speaker, the way it is marketed or purchased ( Internet Direct vs Dealer) does not change the speaker in anyway. What it does change is the end price which changes the speakers perceived value.


Nothing wrong with purchasing either way but since the thread is " Internet Direct speaker/amp companies" the other way is off topic.


This can be an interesting thread so Good Luck
Chris
 

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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion here. So your speakers are better than mine I guess...since they sell through dealers?? Maybe you should start your own thread, and see how popular your opinions really are. How many people on this site have Wilson Audio or Magico speakers?? C'mon


If you want to brag about your speakers go to Audiogon....see what they say about your 80lb Vandersteen towers. ENJOY them, they are the best brand in the world. LOL

He didn't like the concept that I don't think more expensive speakers always sound better than less expensive ones. But you mention Wilson Audio. I have to admit that I went to a high end audio show once and thought the Wilson Audio were among the worst sounding speakers in the show but certainly not the least expensive.


I'm not fond of the Vandersteen sound either because it is a bit dark for my taste but I can see how they would appeal to many. I am baffled by Wilson, however. For me it is a matter of preference rather than price.
 

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Well, everyone has an opinion, and you are entitled to yours. On the other hand, you are pushing the idea that your opinion is factual, and I don't buy that at all. Anyone who is always certain that their opinion is a fact has his head screwed on a bit too tight IMO...lol.

Vandersteen has been in business for 30 years, and his Model 2 speakers are the best-selling high-quality audio speakers of all time (well-documented in a Stereophile article a couple of years ago). Customer loyalty is amazing; you almost never see used ones for sale; they are winners and owners keep them a long long time. That would seem to indicate that very good value is perceived by the owners (even though they are 100% made in the USA!).

Vandersteen, and most other speaker manufacturers, feel that only a local dealer can help the buyer to make good buying decisions through direct interaction, and also provide direct assistance with system setup issues.

Direct internet sales only work well for a certain type of buyer, not for the majority, which is why the majority don't utilize that option. Also, the assertion that internet direct companies offer better VALUE is obviously only a subjective opinion that is totally impossible to substantiate.

I bought my Vandersteen Treo speakers because no other speaker I have ever heard offers equal performance for their price IMO; that seems to me to be the only way you can define VALUE. If you know of some internet direct speaker that you think offers equal performance for the same price, that will be a surprise to me (and hard to believe).

The logical implication of your position would seem to be that if you set a price point, some internet-direct speaker will always turn out to be the best-sounding for that price. My experience with many many speakers at many price points leads me to a very different conclusion.

Besides, the simple FACT is that if you look at the speakers that are acknowledged by the experts in the field to be the very best speakers made, such as Focal, Vandersteen, PSB, Wharfedale, B & W, Thiel, Wilson Audio, Aerial, Magico, Dynaudio and others, almost none of their sales are direct internet sales. They sell through dealers.

Once you decide that you will only buy internet direct, you have eliminated 90% of the best speakers in the world; is that smart? It seems rather silly to me to restrict your choices to that extent.

I reviewed my post looking for indications that I viewed what wrote as universal truth. I couldn't find it so we'll just have to say that what I wrote was opinion but accurate.


The problem is that high end speakers (B&W perhaps excluded) don't have enough brand recognition to convince anyone to buy their products at those prices without a salesman getting the job done. Those products don't sell themselves. That is why they use dealers. Direct sales wouldn't work.


You ask is it smart? My answer is a resounding yes. The reason is that manufacturer direct is a better value. Always. No dealer markup. Common sense. I understand that there are wealthy people with little common sense about buying audio equipment and those aren't the people who look for value on the internet. They look for prestige. I don't have a problem with that but it doesn't affect the validity of what I wrote.


I know it sounds unbelievable to you that I was once a high end audiophile with a system that cost more than both my cars combined, but it is true. I'm no longer into that because I choose not to be after having learned the lessons I've learned. I'm not against it. I'm only against making false claims.


The diminishing returns in audio are amazing to being at the point of ridiculous. Anyone who travels very far up that road gets to the point where more spending does absolutely nothing for the sound of a system and sometimes reduces it but the price list continues heading toward the stratosphere. That isn't music loving or an audio hobby. It is an audio equipment collection problem.


Have you never heard $20,000 speakers that sound worse than $2,000 speakers when compared right next to each other. I certainly have. And I've heard $20,000 models that sound better. Price has almost nothing to do with sound quality in the audio world. That's OK with me. I just hope that we can get more people to realize that.


Again, I'm not against stratospheric prices as long as the sellers of the products don't make false claims about them. But most of them do with the aid of magazine reviewers who exchange prose for money to make a living.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Spot on

I reviewed my post looking for indications that I viewed what wrote as universal truth. I couldn't find it so we'll just have to say that what I wrote was opinion but accurate.


The problem is that high end speakers (B&W perhaps excluded) don't have enough brand recognition to convince anyone to buy their products at those prices without a salesman getting the job done. Those products don't sell themselves. That is why they use dealers. Direct sales wouldn't work.


You ask is it smart? My answer is a resounding yes. The reason is that manufacturer direct is a better value. Always. No dealer markup. Common sense. I understand that there are wealthy people with little common sense about buying audio equipment and those aren't the people who look for value on the internet. They look for prestige. I don't have a problem with that but it doesn't affect the validity of what I wrote.


I know it sounds unbelievable to you that I was once a high end audiophile with a system that cost more than both my cars combined, but it is true. I'm no longer into that because I choose not to be after having learned the lessons I've learned. I'm not against it. I'm only against making false claims.


The diminishing returns in audio are amazing to being at the point of ridiculous. Anyone who travels very far up that road gets to the point where more spending does absolutely nothing for the sound of a system and sometimes reduces it but the price list continues heading toward the stratosphere. That isn't music loving or an audio hobby. It is an audio equipment collection problem.


Have you never heard $20,000 speakers that sound worse than $2,000 speakers when compared right next to each other. I certainly have. And I've heard $20,000 models that sound better. Price has almost nothing to do with sound quality in the audio world. That's OK with me. I just hope that we can get more people to realize that.


Again, I'm not against stratospheric prices as long as the sellers of the products don't make false claims about them. But most of them do with the aid of magazine reviewers who exchange prose for money to make a living.



Excellent post, and we can put amplifiers in the same boat. Here's a good example:


My cousin spent over $9000 on a Krell FPB 300cx....and we both have identical speakers ( PBN Eps2's.) My budget for amplification was $2500 max. So I went internet direct and bought a new Wyred 4 Sound ( 5 channel ) amplifier. ( $2100 shipped )


Honestly, the Krell sounds awesome, and looks gorgeous....but it didn't trounce my Wyred amp like some would expect. Minimal difference. The main difference had nothing to do with equipment...his room is acoustically unfriendly, he skipped sound treatments. My room is the exact opposite, and honestly sounds better than his. :)
But his amp certainly looks more intimidating than mine!


Enjoy!!
 

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This is an ultra-rare occasion where I have to agree with commsysman. ID does not absolutely necessitate better value. The sound of high end speakers are a subjective preference, period. Aesthetics are a big subjective factor as well. If you want to talk about objective measurements, well some high-end store speakers measure good and some do not, but the same is true with ID brands. And FMW, you did assert an absolute:
Consumer direct companies offer more value every time.
I would say this is only partially true for subwoofers, but definitely not speakers or electronics.
 

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I'm absolutely absolute about that point. I understand that the sound of speakers is a matter of personal preference. What I said was that manufacturer direct provides better value every time. And it does. It may not provide the sound someone likes but these companies take returns without a quibble when that happens. But they do provide better value - more speaker for the money - every single time.


If they didn't they would be overrun with returns and fail as a result. It is possible that a manufacturer might overprice his product for direct sales but if he doesn't have a dealer base he will have to change that pretty quickly. You can't get away with poor value on the internet. I do ecommerce for a living and that has been my experience for the 17 years I've been doing it.


I can think of one subwoofer manufacturer that failed recently because he didn't provide that value. His products had too high a failure rate. People could buy better quality for the same money and did so.
 

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Nothing wrong with purchasing either way but since the thread is " Internet Direct speaker/amp companies" the other way is off topic.


This can be an interesting thread so Good Luck
Chris
Sorry to have gone off the topic. I agree that ID is the future. In a moment of frustration I was trying to pitch my $.02 about grouping items by price as "Bang for your Buck" which would include big box items as well. So many of us have nothing but consensus and the risk of buy, maybe return and then buy something else. This is very apparent when you start reading the LCD threads and see all of the people dealing with the Samsung Panel Lottery. Bless those who have posted information on which panel is associated with differing SKUs.

The OP has a great idea. As for me, "Thank you all for your efforts in reviewing and adding insight to the AV world."
 

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There have been some very good post for pro and cons so far.

Let's not turn this into a war debate.
I love ID for the goods your are geting for the money since I did DIY and kind of know what cost is involve.
Are all ID offer a better sound or value, of course not.

Wining the big lotery, I would love to buy a few Krell power amps with an Anthem A/V processor.
Are they going to better than my Maranztz AV8801 match with my Outlaw 7700 amp.
I would say yes, but by how much?

Not too long ago, a new member was asking if he could do a 5.1 "home theater in a box" in his room.
I took the time to say he could by doing so and so, and also mention that he should buy a real sub when his budget permited.
From there, he dicided to buy a real AVR, decent speaker and $800 sub (he went from $700 to about $2400).

This is the idea from this tread.
Lets not scare people away from this hobby, and instead help making more people fall in love with this hobby.
 

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