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Are laser diodes less long-lived than LED's?; what's the half-brightness life of laser diodes?


Yikes, the lamps have really gone up.

OK; $1500 more then.

20,000 hours to 1/2 brightness, at full power.


The brighter the lamps, the more expensive. The current JVC lamps are as expensive as the Sony 4K projector lamps.
 

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I knew someone would say dlp is doing it. :) There is now way the UHZ-65 is hitting 3000 lumens calibrated. As for the latest BenQ dlp it is 5000 lumens but, I have yet to hear what it actually puts out after calibration. Maybe Dave Harper has some measurements by now?
Yea, I believe that was OOTB with some manual tweaking from settings provided by some pro sites and other users. Not a certified ISF calibration. But I fully believe they pull it off and it can be done with minimal improvements to the designs from the manufacturers.
 

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Craig, I believe that depends on the type of laser tech. For Phosphor Lasers, it's currently as you said but maybe could be improved upon. Direct RGB lasers is supposed to be 30k hours to 80% brightness.
That would be even better. Too bad there aren't any available for home theater. Maybe some day. But, running my RS4500 in low and mid laser only extends the lasers to more like 28,000 hours. And the laser diodes in the RS4500 are replaceable.
 

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I absolutely don't disagree with you. I was just pointing out where the shift in technology has to occur to have any truly significant advances in the market.

18GBS, HDR is great, but if you are unable to achieve the calibrated lumen output to realistically display it, what's the point. Even guys with 1.3g screens at 12' aren't getting high enough calibrated output for proper display. Plus you now have to choose sound over display (AT vs 1.3 gain). I'd rather not do that.
Depends on what you're going for. Dolby Cinema is 106 nits peak white, that's actually doable on average sized screens with reasonable Lumens. It's been a while since I measured, but IIRC I'm in that ballpark with a 110" wide scope AT screen.

I wonder how the mgfs think light walls will really disrupt the market. Maybe they see the writing on the wall and aren't ever going to really produce the stuff we dream of at prices we think are realistic.
LED walls could be disruptive if they drop in cost by a few orders of magnitude.

I have to disagree with you there. 3k+ lumens is actually at around $4-5k right now. DLP is doing it.
With abysmal contrast.

5000 Lumens with abysmal contrast is nothing special, business class machines have been doing it for years. Getting a bright, good picture is a challenge, and not inexpensive. There are good reasons the the RS4500 and VW5000 cost 10 times what these XPR DLPs are costing.
 

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I have to disagree with you there. 3k+ lumens is actually at around $4-5k right now. DLP is doing it.

Now I'm strictly speaking of Lumens and not the trade off of contrast vs brightness. But I've persoally measured ~3k lumens on an Optoma UHZ65 laser projector. And many other have done the same.

So it can be done. They (the manufacturers) just choose not to.
Yes, but it is way off in color at 3,000 lumens. Once calibrated, it is not as bright as any of the calibrated JVC projectors, nor as bright calibrated as the Epson 5040 when calibrated. This is back to the old LCD days, where an Epson 5030 claimed something like 2,200 lumens but calibrated to around 700 lumens. In other words the number on the box is only for bragging rights.
 

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Yes, but it is way off in color at 3,000 lumens. Once calibrated, it is not as bright as any of the calibrated JVC projectors, nor as bright calibrated as the Epson 5040 when calibrated. This is back to the old LCD days, where an Epson 5030 claimed something like 2,200 lumens but calibrated to around 700 lumens. In other words the number on the box is only for bragging rights.
I believe the UHZ65 comes in around 1650 calibrated lumens. If they could pull of the same peak-to-calibrated ratio with the 5,000 lumen model then that would be a wonderful 2,600-2,700 calibrated lumens of goodness!
 

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I'm late to the party, but I will jump on the wagon for a laser driven, brighter JVC, with e-shift or whatever, as long as it can play the 4k content reasonably well.

However, I would pay closer to $10k than to $5k for it. All I ask for is 2000 calibrated lumens, laser, decent contrast, shift and zoom memory, and compatibility with all sources (i.e. true 18gbps hdmi). If they came out with it in the next 2 months, I would be first on the list to buy one. But I have a lot of wishes stored up, and the chances of most of them coming true are somewhere between slim and none, leaning toward none.

For those who don't think a few hundred lumens of calibrated brightness matters, you have never tried to add some width to your "normal" sized screen and still be able to watch HDR content. It amazes me how going from 120" 1.0 gain regular screen to a scope version at the same height (150" wide) with AT and a little gain takes you from $250 to $7k just for the screen. And even a little screen gain isn't quite enough, so you need a little more brightness too, but the only way to get that is with a projector that has crappy image quality and no zoom/shift memory (data projector) or by spending 10-20x as much (JVC 4500 or Sony 5000). This shouldn't be so complicated. Am I really asking too much? Just make my screen wider without having to spend another $20k. A couple thousand calibrated lumens (with a color filter in place) would accomplish this. And since it would still need to run on high lamp, make it a laser so I am not spending $500 3-4 times per year to keep the brightness there.
 

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With abysmal contrast.

5000 Lumens with abysmal contrast is nothing special, business class machines have been doing it for years. Getting a bright, good picture is a challenge, and not inexpensive. There are good reasons the the RS4500 and VW5000 cost 10 times what these XPR DLPs are costing.
Which is why I specifically added the caveat that you ignored: "Now I'm strictly speaking of Lumens and not the trade off of contrast vs brightness." I said that because there definitely seems to be an issue with loss of native on/off with increasing brightness on any platform.

But honestly, I wasn't that put off by the contrast on this DLP projector. I had more issues with other things like a buggy firmware, RBE, cheap design and chassis feel, etc. With the HK Effect, higher lumens, high ANSI/DLP pop, overall contrast in real world viewing wasn't that bad. And I'm coming from multiple JVC's so I know black. And anyways, you need a real dedicated or treated room to take advantages of deep black. Many who've been buying these types of projectors lately don't have that.

If they could improve those things I had issues with and work on native on/off a little more, I'd totally jump ship from JVC. Lasers with higher lumens, wider color gamut support, steady brightness decay, etc, is the future.

But back to your last point, I agree. There are reasons those JVC and Sony's cost that much. But not solely because of lumens. Better processing, optics, etc.

There's no reason these companies can't now do a solid state light source in the 3-5k lumens range under $10k. They chose not to for some kinda business reason. ie, don't want to hurt high end sales, don't want to pump money into R&D, want to milk this current gen tech for as long as possible, etc.

One last thing. Just curious, have you spent much time with any of these new 4K machines?

Yes, but it is way off in color at 3,000 lumens. Once calibrated, it is not as bright as any of the calibrated JVC projectors, nor as bright calibrated as the Epson 5040 when calibrated. This is back to the old LCD days, where an Epson 5030 claimed something like 2,200 lumens but calibrated to around 700 lumens. In other words the number on the box is only for bragging rights.
Mike, I'm well aware that the majority of these projectors don't measure up to their claimed specs; brightness, contrast or otherwise. The JVC's don't calibrate that much brighter than the unit I'm talking about. Especially if you factor in the rec 2020 filter. And the JVC's and Epson's you mention won't hold that advantage for very long being bulb based. Always a trade-off.

But I bet they can still improve on these low cost lasers after some more tweaking. With this Optoma laser, I have a feeling part of it was the color wheel choice. Or just work on some more powerful lasers.

I believe the UHZ65 comes in around 1650 calibrated lumens. If they could pull of the same peak-to-calibrated ratio with the 5,000 lumen model then that would be a wonderful 2,600-2,700 calibrated lumens of goodness!
PC and PR had the UHZ65 at 1633 and 1729 lumens, respectively. I've seen other numbers posted much higher than that. And many feel the OOTB settings with some minimal tweaks looks pretty darn good as is. And I'm one of them when you start looking at real world content and not static test patterns.

The Dell S718QL is a business class projector but is laser and DLP. It measured 2679 lumens by PC. PR's measurement was a little confusing to ead but I think somewhere around 3,579 lumens.
 

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PC and PR had the UHZ65 at 1633 and 1729 lumens, respectively. I've seen other numbers posted much higher than that. And many feel the OOTB settings with some minimal tweaks looks pretty darn good as is. And I'm one of them when you start looking at real world content and not static test patterns.

The Dell S718QL is a business class projector but is laser and DLP. It measured 2679 lumens by PC. PR's measurement was a little confusing to ead but I think somewhere around 3,579 lumens.
So if the UHZ65 is losing between 40-50% of lumens after calibration, I can't wait to see the BenQ LK970 after calibration. Even if it drops down to a solid 2500 lumens (using the 50% rule) then it should look quite bright.
 

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I believe the UHZ65 comes in around 1650 calibrated lumens. If they could pull of the same peak-to-calibrated ratio with the 5,000 lumen model then that would be a wonderful 2,600-2,700 calibrated lumens of goodness!
Not with a de of 3 or less.
 

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So if the UHZ65 is losing between 40-50% of lumens after calibration, I can't wait to see the BenQ LK970 after calibration. Even if it drops down to a solid 2500 lumens (using the 50% rule) then it should look quite bright.
I don't really know if we can use that 50% rule as a general guide anymore with any of these manufacturers. Many have gotten much better. I'd normally say 30-40% max. JVC is almost spot on and Epson was I think 10-20% max. However, Rec 2020 filters can change all that.

But that BenQ is a large venue projector. So it was not designed from the get go for optimal video presentation. So that could affect color wheel choice and reduce calibrated lumens a lot when trying to get the best picture. So maybe 40-50% would ok to use here. But it looks promising and street price is in the $6-7k range it seems.
 

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I don't really know if we can use that 50% rule as a general guide anymore with any of these manufacturers. Many have gotten much better. I'd normally say 30-40% max. JVC is almost spot on and Epson was I think 10-20% max. However, Rec 2020 filters can change all that.

But that BenQ is a large venue projector. So it was not designed from the get go for optimal video presentation. So that could affect color wheel choice and reduce calibrated lumens a lot when trying to get the best picture. So maybe 40-50% would ok to use here. But it looks promising and street price is in the $6-7k range it seems.
I was being very aggressive with the 50% loss. Even if it does lose that much, if it starts off at 5000 then 2500 lumens would be quite nice if the calibration gets the contrast and HDR capabilities at a decent level. I understand that its a large venue unit but I have seen some really nice Christies that would look incredible in a home theater setting if they weren't north of $200k... 6-7k would be OK to me.
 

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I was being very aggressive with the 50% loss. Even if it does lose that much, if it starts off at 5000 then 2500 lumens would be quite nice if the calibration gets the contrast and HDR capabilities at a decent level. I understand that its a large venue unit but I have seen some really nice Christies that would look incredible in a home theater setting if they weren't north of $200k... 6-7k would be OK to me.
Have you read through this thread yet?

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2917348-benq-lk970-4k-dlp-laser-12-999k-msrp.html
 

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RGBY color wheel and high lumens could be RBE central..

http://www.avbuzz.com/audio-video/201709/benq-lk970/

Under BenQ LK970, the rainbow effect still exists for me

That's not the first thing I would want to read as a first impression at this price point.
Jason, that's one of the main issues I had with the Optoma UHZ65. That color wheel was causing RBE left and right. Very annoying.
 

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Jason, that's one of the main issues I had with the Optoma UHZ65. That color wheel was causing RBE left and right. Very annoying.
thanks for the info, I saw a number of folks reporting seeing RBE on the UHZ65, it's a deal breaker in a light treated room especially with the HP.

they likely went RGBY with the UHZ and the BenQ for extra light at the expense of RBE.
 
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