[speedlaw]

Can a CRT using RGB inputs display a greater color palette than NTSC would allow ?

I have a secondary set, a Sony WEGA KV FS20. I got it when everyone tossed out the SD sets for HDTV. This set was built in 2006, (almost last off the production line) and prior to me, sat in the "formal" living room, so was unused when I got it. For a 480 line picture, superb.

I am using this OTA. Until recently, I used a Sony HDD 250 DVR, feeding it component RGB. The Sony DVR died , and I am now using an older US Digital Box, via a single video cable. I also have a huge Trinitron in an upstairs bedroom, again fed RGB from a Tivo box.

Of course, the downconverted HDTV looks really good, but having gone from RGB to a single video cable, the colors aren't as broad, or as correct.....(we won't discuss dot crawl, and there is no S-VHS input for the smaller set)

Are the Trinitons capable of a greater color scale than old NTSC color if fed by RGB ? My experience would tend to say so, even when I was still able to A/B analog OTA and HD OTA. I couldn't find this answer elsewhere, and it would make sense as via RGB you are feeding the display, and any NTSC legacy would be bypassed. A single Video Cable with chroma and lumina, I think, would still contain the limits of NTSC format.....

Thanks !

 

[LiquidSnake]

First off, what model Trinitron is this? I can't find any "KV FS20" model by googling. Is it the KV-FS120 perhaps?

Second, you aren't using RGB with your TiVo, you are using component (YPbPr). American television equipment does not normally operate from RGB. Functionally, RGB and component provide a picture that should be identical, but component is normally useful for high definition, whereas RGB for television, in equipment that is capable of it,does not operate at HD resolutions at all. You will not likely find any NTSC televisions that can use RGB; when component became a thing, NTSC televisions added that instead.

NTSC is capable of the full colour gamut itself, just like RGB is. It arrives at it in a different way, and the limiter that you notice affecting the quality of the broadcast (not the usable colour gamut) is the physical connection, something composite is not generally so great at it. It can do a fine job of it, but this can vary greatly depending on your equipment, on your cable, and even the temperature (seriously). It is also more susceptible to background noise and radiation than other means. S-Video completely does away with all phase distortions that lesser modes operate with, so believe it or not, you can and should see a vastly better image even with respect to colour if you move to S-Video from composite.

If on the other hand your Trinitron is the model I mentioned, then it should have component inputs, and you would absolutely want to use that anywhere possible.

 

[Ratman]

The OP is using the term "RGB" because the cables (input/output) are red/green/blue. Based on the DVR's specs... he means "component".

If the replacement "US digital box" only has one video output, it either composite or S-Video. Neither are HD capable.

And! Since the TV is probably standard definition (480i only)... it really isn't a big issue/difference to fret over.

And last but not least... RGB or RGB/HV inputs were quite common on U.S. TV's a few decades ago.

 

[speedlaw]

The OP is using the term "RGB" because the cables (input/output) are red/green/blue. Based on the DVR's specs... he means "component".

If the replacement "US digital box" only has one video output, it either composite or S-Video. Neither are HD capable.

And! Since the TV is probably standard definition (480i only)... it really isn't a big issue/difference to fret over.

And last but not least... RGB or RGB/HV inputs were quite common on U.S. TV's a few decades ago.

KV20-FS120 is the marking on the back.

I do mean component in-using that resulted in better (more accurate) color, more gradients. Sadly, the small sony in this model line didn't have an s vhs input...

The USDigital Box has component out, but one color isn't working, and as this box is out of production almost ten years, I'll take what I can get-it is just that the component in from the Sony HDD looked a bit better. I've had my other sets professionally calibrated, so I am a bit crazy on this, however, since this set is "free", and using OTA only, I'll take what I get. I'll just accept the limits of the single video input.

Thanks. When the USDigital box dies, or the TV (will probably be the box-capacitors dry out...) I'll re visit this. It was just amazing, though, that this set had such a great picture for a 480i set. Not surprising, though as it was the end production of a top shelf system...just amazing, though what the end point of CRT was.

I'm a plasma snob, as it is the only better technology. Not to go off on a huge tangent, but all the backlit sets drive me crazy, as I always see the backlight.

Thanks all.

 

[Floydage]

You will get better color quality since there is no encoding. But be sure and adjust the pic menu settings for the two different types of inputs.
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"S-Video, RGB and YPBPR signals comprise two or more separate signals, and thus are all component-video signals."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_video

The "popular use" of the term is misleading to the general public. The OP was correct in writing "component RGB." I searched (using Yahoo, haha!) and found a reference to an KV-28FS20U model and the word "colour" so I suspect is European. So very well could be RGB via a SCART connector.

 

[LiquidSnake]

The OP is using the term "RGB" because the cables (input/output) are red/green/blue. Based on the DVR's specs... he means "component".

Pretty sure I covered that.

And last but not least... RGB or RGB/HV inputs were quite common on U.S. TV's a few decades ago.

I have never seen one, and it's not for lack of looking either. Do you have a model you can throw out? SCART equipped TVs became hugely popular in Europe since the late 80s and it is still fairly common to see on TVs there today, but the RGB that it is capable of only syncs 15KHz (no HD or VGA level resolutions). And I've never seen anything at all like that on a tube here in the states that wasn't made primarily to be a computer monitor for a direct input (think Commodore type stuff).

 

[Ratman]

May have been "covered", but perhaps not in a concise fashion.

You may have never seen one... but trust me they existed.
You can search around for yourself. Rear projection and front projection models used RGB (using BNC connectors) for quite a few years.

RGB and VGA are basically the same except for the connectors.
Look into the RCA DTC-100 receiver. It used VGA (for HD). Here's a clip from the manual:

HD MONITOR OUT Use to connect an RGB-compatible high definition monitor. This provides high
definition picture quality when high definition broadcasts are viewed.

No one mentioned SCART.

EDIT:
The OP's profile states:
Location: New York, about 40 miles north of "New York"

Perhaps... Canadian, depending whether 40 miles north of New York state or New York city.

 

[Floydage]

KV20-FS120 is the marking on the back.

I do mean component in-using that resulted in better (more accurate) color, more gradients. Sadly, the small sony in this model line didn't have an s vhs input...

Hey that's the same one I have right here next to my PC monitor. Great little TV and I got it free too. In this small size it looks HD-ish to me on composite via a Zinwell DTV converter box (in the top tier of PQ per consumerreports.org); i.e. not all boxes deliver the same PQ... (US Digital box age?). try the 16:9 Enhanced Mode if you like widescreen and don't mind a little smaller pic; per the manual:

"16:9 Enhanced — Provides enhanced picture resolution for widescreen sources such as DVD."
[I set the Zinwell output to widescreen mode for this].

BTW you mean s-video, not s vhs. Not the same thing although all of the S-VHS VCRs I have do have s-video ports (I think most do for US markets). Yeah I found it odd this model didn't have s-video despite having YPbPr component; the next size up 24" does have s-video.

 

[speedlaw]

Hey that's the same one I have right here next to my PC monitor. Great little TV and I got it free too. In this small size it looks HD-ish to me on composite via a Zinwell DTV converter box (in the top tier of PQ per consumerreports.org); i.e. not all boxes deliver the same PQ... (US Digital box age?). try the 16:9 Enhanced Mode if you like widescreen and don't mind a little smaller pic; per the manual:

"16:9 Enhanced — Provides enhanced picture resolution for widescreen sources such as DVD."
[I set the Zinwell output to widescreen mode for this].

BTW you mean s-video, not s vhs. Not the same thing although all of the S-VHS VCRs I have do have s-video ports (I think most do for US markets). Yeah I found it odd this model didn't have s-video despite having YPbPr component; the next size up 24" does have s-video.

Thanks for that. I tried the squeeze mode and it does work well.

 

[LiquidSnake]

May have been "covered", but perhaps not in a concise fashion.

I think I was clear.

You may have never seen one... but trust me they existed.

Show me one? A consumer television with RGB in the United States of America, before the introduction of HDTVs, is rare.

You can search around for yourself.

I sure can, and indeed I already have, before this thread was created. I searched high and low throughout the 90s for such a thing and found nothing, not on a CRT, a projection television, or anything else. All computer monitors at the time synced at rates too high for television level broadcasts and resolution. I finally got what I wanted, but I had to get a decommissioned studio broadcast monitor to do it. If RGB inputs were "quite common," I wouldn't have needed to drive 600 miles to get a non-consumer product to have it.

Rear projection and front projection models used RGB (using BNC connectors) for quite a few years.

Show me one?

RGB and VGA are basically the same except for the connectors.

Oh yeah they're "basically the same except for the connectors." And for the sync rate (RGB = 15KHz, VGA = 31KHz +). And the resolution (RGB will send sub-640x480, VGA will send that resolution or higher). Oh and RGB is always interlaced, VGA is normally progressive and some VGA equipment can't even do interlaced at all. But other than that they're exactly the same.

Look into the RCA DTC-100 receiver. It used VGA (for HD). Here's a clip from the manual:


No one mentioned SCART.

I'm not sure WTF this has to do with a rear or front projection television that can perform RGB at sub-640x480 resolutions with 15.75KHz horizontal frequency, especially not when the manual itself says:

A VGA cable connects the HD receiver to an industry-standard RGB-compatible monitor via the HD MONITOR OUT jack.

When I read this it says to me that I'll need a VGA monitor of some kind in order to use it. Guess what? Something like 95% of all HDTVs with VGA inputs don't accept what we commonly term RGB over the same VGA input. Being that this is an "HD" receiver I'd be altogether shocked if it syncs at 15KHz over RGB because displays like this by and large just do not and have not ever existed in American homes. Even googling now, I can't find a single rear projection television that does this. The closest I've come to are broadcast projection displays used in studios, which are like the broadcast monitors I sourced twenty years ago--not for consumers.

 

[Floydage]

Thanks for that. I tried the squeeze mode and it does work well.

You're welcome. Yeah I like that mode but my TV is real close.
I mentioned adjusting the pic menu settings before because my main HD CRT TV gives me way different results on the different inputs if I kept the settings the same.
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Don't know if this will help you other guys but my Hughes DirecTV/ATSC HD tuner has a 15 pin 3 row D-sub connector (which I think is common to VGA) labeled RGB (1080i/720p/480p). The manual states to use it to hook to an HD monitor.

 

[speedlaw]

At the end of the day, I was able to get a best possible picture by using a better wire !

How quickly we go digital and forget that interconnects are/were important. I took the scraggly interconnect from unknown source, and replaced it with a proper fat coax cable interconnect that had been retired when the big TV went fully HDMI.

Despite checking my USDigital box "component outs" for continuity (ok), one of the colors isn't putting out, and I'm not about to muck around with the surface mounted devices on the circuit board..and it isn't like anyone has a schematic....so we live with "video out".

The Horror.

I'm not using squeeze mode, as the patchwork quilt of stations I get OTA, all the oldies are 4:3, so I use the "aspect" button a lot. This is the "freecycled" TV, with an old box, using free OTA. The fancy stuff is in the other room, but in the office, it's "totally free tv" only. I could buy an entire small HD set now, for less than I paid for the USDigital box in 2005, but where would be the fun in that ?

Thanks all.

 

[Tonepoet]

It sounds like you would want an A.T.S.C. compatible tuner with component y/pb/pr output. You don't need Q.A.M. support, since you don't plan on getting cable. The iView STB3500II and the Mediasonic Homeworx HW150PVR are several examples. The user ratings are rather mediocre but these might be worth a shot, since I doubt you'll find an H.D.T.V. in the price range ($50 M.S.R.P. for the iView), let alone one that suits your purposes any better than the C.R.T. can. With color quality being a concern, a budget T.F.T. L.C.D. would probably be a disappointment and I'm unaware of many televisions that would scale linearly with what's likely to be standard definition content, esp. of the recent models.