[pheroy]

I haven't been keeping up all that closely with processors and receivers over the last few years, having been enjoying a Lexicon MC-1 (which I picked up used, I couldn't afford it new). It has no provisions for hi-res audio, so I'm starting to think about a possible upgrade to enter those waters. However, one of the things that deterred me from that path a few years ago seems to still be a problem: lack of a standard digital interface, especially for SACD. In the searching I've done it looks like there are a few proprietary digital interfaces from Pioneer, Denon and maybe a few others, but nothing for SACD. I realize that to some extent I'm spiting myself by holding out, but I just have a hard time accepting the limitations that seem to currently exist.


Ultimately I'd like to replace my existing setup with a 5-6 disc changer that plays all audio & video formats and includes standardized digital outputs for everything -- HDMI/DVI for video and 1394 or whatever for audio. I know such a thing doesn't exist just yet, but is it even close? The audio connection seems to be the major hurdle, and I don't like being limited to proprietary solutions.

 

[graphicguy]

Yes, it most certainly does exist. I know the 55 TXi, 56 TXi and 59 TXi from Elite offers fully functional i-link digital interface.


So does the Yamaha RX Z9.


Denon may or may not. I know they have some i-link players and AVRs, but I don't think they are fully functional with both SACD and DVD-A.

 

[William]

Sony will not allow DSD to pass through a proprietary link or HDMI because of royalty income from FireWire ports. But as graphicguy says DSD (as well as MLP) will pass through i-link, AKA FireWire, AKA 1394.

 

[John Kotches]

William says:

Quote:

But as graphicguy says DSD (as well as MLP) will pass through i-link, AKA FireWire, AKA 1394.

I hate to be picky, but MLP doesn't pass through i-Link (or any of the proprietary interfaces either). MLP is decoded in the player, and PCM is passed to the receiver/processor. If you passed MLP via these interfaces you'd need an additional MLP license and decoder in the receiver/processor besides the one you have to have in the player.


The same is true for SA-CD. Multi-channel is stored compressed with DST (Direct Stream Transfer) and decoded in the player. The DSD bitstream is what is passed across the digital interface.


Cheers,

 

[pheroy]

Thanks for the feedback, and I should have made it a little clearer in my subject line that what I'm looking for is a standard digital i/f. I'm not completely sure from the replies whether the Elite receivers would connect to, say, a Denon player. That's what I want to see, the ability to choose a player and receiver or pre-pro freely, because the i/f is standardized. So maybe I'm missing it... is i-link a standard?

 

[tubeguy44]

Quote:

Originally posted by pheroy Thanks for the feedback, and I should have made it a little clearer in my subject line that what I'm looking for is a standard digital i/f. I'm not completely sure from the replies whether the Elite receivers would connect to, say, a Denon player. That's what I want to see, the ability to choose a player and receiver or pre-pro freely, because the i/f is standardized. So maybe I'm missing it... is i-link a standard?

i-link is an industry standard....


it's just that many manufacturers are slow to implement it in their equipment.......



cheers!

 

[John Kotches]

I've tested interoperability on a limited basis, using a Pioneer DVD Player with i-Link player connected to a Yamaha receiver with i-Link and had no problems.


Cheers,

 

[William]

Quote:

Originally posted by pheroy Thanks for the feedback, and I should have made it a little clearer in my subject line that what I'm looking for is a standard digital i/f. I'm not completely sure from the replies whether the Elite receivers would connect to, say, a Denon player. That's what I want to see, the ability to choose a player and receiver or pre-pro freely, because the i/f is standardized. So maybe I'm missing it... is i-link a standard?

i-link=FireWire=IEEE 1394

 

[William]

Quote:

Originally posted by John Kotches William says: I hate to be picky, but...MLP is decoded in the player, and PCM is passed to the receiver/processor.... Cheers,

I was not thinking, quick to type, and pointing out 96/24 5.1 LPCM vs standard 44.1/16 2.0 CD LPCM (which will also pass over FireWire). As pointed out passing the lossless compressed MLP signal would be pointless.

 

[M Code]

Major issue for iLink/1394/Firewire is COST..

Key components are the TI Lynx chips (needed in AVR in optical player) and they raise the end market sell significantly...

and to date these are not dropping at the rate everyone is expecting..

 

[jheoaustin]

I think the chip itself is not that expensive, but making it work in audio systems is a significant test. It's the development cost for system and firmware that drives the i.Link cost up high. That's also why i.Link deployment is so slow.

 

[Toeside]

Quote:

Originally posted by William Sony will not allow DSD to pass through a proprietary link or HDMI because of royalty income from FireWire ports. But as graphicguy says DSD (as well as MLP) will pass through i-link, AKA FireWire, AKA 1394.

Royalty for Firewire? I don't think so. As I understand it, Firewire was developed by Apple, and they gave up "ownership" of Firewire and turned it over to IEEE, where it's generically known as IEEE-1394. I think Sony might have trademarked i.Link, but only the name, not the technology or the connector.


A 1394 port could be added to any device without paying royalties to anyone.

 

[dr1394]

There is a 25 cent royalty for all 1394 devices:

http://www.mpegla.com/1394/


Ron

 

[TauRus]

Quote:

Originally posted by Toeside Royalty for Firewire? I don't think so. As I understand it, Firewire was developed by Apple, and they gave up "ownership" of Firewire and turned it over to IEEE, where it's generically known as IEEE-1394. I think Sony might have trademarked i.Link, but only the name, not the technology or the connector. A 1394 port could be added to any device without paying royalties to anyone.

I think what William meant was that Sony charges other manufacturers some royalty for letting them pass a digital DSD stream through iLink, not for having iLink on their units.

 

[hdshark]

iLink chips themselves may not be dirt cheap, but iLink can be integrated to another chip (ASIC or FPGA). For example, the iPods have a chip which, among other things, provide a FireWire interface.


I would prefer FireWire over HDMI for transporting audio and compressed video signals. The idea of passing very high bandwidth uncompressed bandwidth signals through components video cables, DVI or HDMI (and potentially a switch in a receiver) is somewhat of a backward way of doing things IHMO. If display devices (plasma/LCD/projection) had a slot for a MPEG2/MPEG4 decoder card and accepted compressed digital video, we would use a single chain of FireWire cables to connect our equipment and life would be so much simpler.

 

[M Code]

Quote:

Originally posted by hdshark iLink chips themselves may not be dirt cheap, but iLink can be integrated to another chip (ASIC or FPGA). For example, the iPods have a chip which, among other things, provide a FireWire interface. I would prefer FireWire over HDMI for transporting audio and compressed video signals. The idea of passing very high bandwidth uncompressed bandwidth signals through components video cables, DVI or HDMI (and potentially a switch in a receiver) is somewhat of a backward way of doing things IHMO. If display devices (plasma/LCD/projection) had a slot for a MPEG2/MPEG4 decoder card and accepted compressed digital video, we would use a single chain of FireWire cables to connect our equipment and life would be so much simpler.

Understood..

But.. how can you compare the qtys of iPOD sold to AVR.. The iPOD outsold AVRs by a 4 to 1 selling rate, and qtys are the key to bring 1394 ICs down in cost..

 

[William]

Quote:

Originally posted by TauRus I think what William meant was that Sony charges other manufacturers some royalty for letting them pass a digital DSD stream through iLink, not for having iLink on their units.

NO that is not what I meant. I meant what I said. Sony gets a royalty off of every 1394 (AKA FireWire, AKA i-link) installed. Read the link supplied by dr1394.


So by not letting companies use other digital connections Sony forces them to use 1394 and makes money.

 

[Johnla]

Quote:

Originally posted by William NO that is not what I meant. I meant what I said. Sony gets a royalty off of every 1394 (AKA FireWire, AKA i-link) installed. Read the link supplied by dr1394. So by not letting companies use other digital connections Sony forces them to use 1394 and makes money.

Why do so many seem to think that only Sony owns all the rights to 1394? When they do not.



Here is a list of the licensors of 1394. And it's from that same link everyone else is refering to. And Sony is not the only company on the list.


Apple Computer, Inc.

Canon Inc.

Hitachi, Ltd.

Koninklijke Philips Electronics N.V.

Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. (Panasonic)

Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.

Sony Corporation

STMicroelectronics N.V.

Toshiba Corporation

http://www.mpegla.com/1394/1394-licensors.cfm

http://www.mpegla.com/1394/1394-att1.pdf

 

[M Code]

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnla Why do so many seem to think that only Sony owns all the rights to 1394? When they do not. Here is a list of the licensors of 1394. And it's from that same link everyone else is refering to. And Sony is not the only company on the list. Apple Computer, Inc. Canon Inc. Hitachi, Ltd. Koninklijke Philips Electronics N.V. Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. (Panasonic) Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. Sony Corporation STMicroelectronics N.V. Toshiba Corporation http://www.mpegla.com/1394/1394-licensors.cfm http://www.mpegla.com/1394/1394-att1.pdf

Don't forget Bridgeco, its 1394 processor is used by Denon..


Here is a link for more details..

http://www.bridgeco.net/products/dm1000/dm1000.shtml

 

[William]

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnla Why do so many seem to think that only Sony owns all the rights to 1394? When they do not....

Please show me where I said that Sony "owns all the rights to 1394" or is the only one to get royalties. I know that there are other companies involved. So let me restate just for you: Sony gets royalties from every 1394 along with other companies and Sony does not own all the rights to 1394 or get all the royalties. Now is that better.


So Sony will not let DSD pass through any digital interface except 1394 witch they get some (but not all) of the royalties.