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Discussion Starter #41

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk /forum/post/20631370


Say what you will, spending $65 or even 5 times that for cables of a kind that is completely and totally ideally functional at or below the $10 price point is simply a waste of time and money.


You seem to be unaware of the kind of a joke that $65 cables represent.


I think there is still hope that you do get the concept of the futlity of "throwing good money after bad".


Here's the big idea that many of us have tried to share with you:


Room acoustics can make big changes and even improvements in system sound quality.


$65 cables can't.

What type / brand / cost of cables do you have in your system? Did they cost $10.00? It is odd that people are afraid to auditioned different components to see if there are differences between. If you feel that a $10.00 cable works well in your system then good for you. Maybe it's time you step outside your box and explore.
 

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Discussion Starter #42

Quote:
Originally Posted by terry j /forum/post/20631404


No.


If you are interested in finding out for yourself, then do so. (for sure, do some research beforehand).


TBH I did not click on your link. "foam" was enough for me.


You are talking about being willing to blow a few bucks on an experiment. You have (I think, without reading the thread again) been advised that foam might not be the ticket.


If you are willing to experiment, go to your hardware store and buy a bag of fibreglass. $50 over there? (at the most)


Ok, place them in the 'usual suspect' positions, and find out for yourself.


Like the result? Ok then, make or buy some permanent ones. Throw these way, throw them in the ceiling for extra insulation, or consult a diy how to make them look nice.


Don't like the result? As I said, put them in the ceiling.

Find out for yourself (I don't want to jump on you so to speak for asking, research is fine) but at the end of the day it is YOUR ears, and YOUR taste.


Who gives a flying stuff what some loudmouthed bigot with a full bookmarks folder tells you? (we all know who is being referred to here, if not go back and simply find the obnoxious, unhelpful, oh so righteous posts and you will know who I mean).


At the end of the day, YOU need to know.


This is an easy, cheap and simple way for YOU to find out.


(oh yeah, save your money on cabling ok? use it for things that DO make a difference. Better or worse is for you to decide, but a difference definitely)

I have already experimented with the Pink stuff.
 

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Discussion Starter #43

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 /forum/post/20631549


And it's worth noting that it can happen even with the "best," in their area of expertise, too.


The best placebo effect story I've read was about two-time Formula-1 World Champion Graham Hill. At one course, he was complaining that the shocks on his Lotus weren't firm enough. They swapped in a few, but he still said they weren't firm enough. Then they took a red pair that he had already rejected, painted them blue (or perhaps I have the colors swapped), and told him that they were a brand new design that was the stiffest out there. He took a lap and said they were perfect.




And compare to one fifth that amount that do the exact same thing.



Pay what you want for cables. But buy them on what actually differs between them. That is mostly just looks. With a very few exceptions (and most of those have blisters on the barrel with resistors embedded in them to act as, yes, fixed tone controls) wires are just wires.

When comparing two cables in the same room and you can hear a difference between several different cables, then you will know what you like or not. There are many and I mean many different opinions about IC and speaker wires that it is of little uses to comment. My opinion is that if you're happy with what you have then good for you, as this is a hobby for me I will always experiment within my budget. I f I feel like one product sounds great to me then I will add it if it's within my budget.

What kind of cables and wires do you use in your system?
 

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Discussion Starter #44

Quote:
Originally Posted by localhost127 /forum/post/20631562


buy the bales of r13 pink insulation (keep them wrapped) and stack them in the corners floor to ceiling (and floor/wall corners as well). they wont perform quite as good being compressed, but you can test and then return them as long as you keep them wrapped.

You can use R-30 for attics, I find that it's more compact.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by richandy /forum/post/20631609


I however found your review of the Sony quite informative. My question is how many people will be convinced that spending $27,000.00 on a pair of Sony speakers will be worth it?

Thanks. I think I dealt with that issue in the introduction. That price, alone, limits the market and it is further limited by preconceptions.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by richandy /forum/post/20631624


I have already experimented with the Pink stuff.

fine. Let me know next time. That way it will save me some typing that can be dismissed by a one liner.


And?


Just buy the Auralex stuff, and then you will know. Why ask us then?


Do tell us what you think in comparison yeah?
 

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Discussion Starter #47

Quote:
Originally Posted by terry j /forum/post/20631808


fine. Let me know next time. That way it will save me some typing that can be dismissed by a one liner.


And?


Just buy the Auralex stuff, and then you will know. Why ask us then?


Do tell us what you think in comparison yeah?

You made a suggestion, I countered with what I have tried. Now you commented why ask.

If you read my question, and the the answers given so far, do you think that it was answered?

If I had used the product before, I would have answered as clearly as I could. As far as I am concern, it seems that acoustic treatment varies from person to person, so if when I get these items and do a comparison with I have now, I can better give someone a clear reply. Most if not all of my answers in this forum has been with products that I have used and very familiar with. I will not give a reply based on here-say, or plagiarized someone's work. I have commented about Onkyo/Integra because of my personal experiences, similarly with Paradigm, Polk, Denon etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #48

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson /forum/post/20631775


Thanks. I think I dealt with that issue in the introduction. That price, alone, limits the market and it is further limited by preconceptions.

I agree, I have a question for you being expose to many different equipment.

I know this will probably cause a snow storm in the summer from others, but here goes. Is the difference between cheap low price Interconnects and their mega price cousins a matter of the listener perspective?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by richandy /forum/post/20632086


Is the difference between cheap low price Interconnects and their mega price cousins a matter of the listener perspective?

Sure it is. The mega priced cousins really do taste better to the user . Even when there is zero electrical difference between cousins, just clothing and makeup.

Are you cognizant that "hearing" is an ear/brain process?


Now back to your cell padding alchemy. Do you have any idea why the makers of your speakers...which you say you like the sound of...went to great pains to make their off axis as close to a spectral mirror of the on axis, as possible?


cheers,


AJ
 

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Discussion Starter #50

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA /forum/post/20632328


Sure it is. The mega priced cousins really do taste better to the user . Even when there is zero electrical difference between cousins, just clothing and makeup.

Are you cognizant that "hearing" is an ear/brain process?


Now back to your cell padding alchemy. Do you have any idea why the makers of your speakers...which you say you like the sound of...went to great pains to make their off axis as close to a spectral mirror of the on axis, as possible?


cheers,


AJ

Being in my padded alchemy cell doesn't allow me much leeway for my own thoughts, as I am always in a perpetual state of confusion.


I do say old chap, could you enlighten this old delusion fart, as to their meaning? i am at a complete lost.


Cheers.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by richandy /forum/post/20631620


What type / brand / cost of cables do you have in your system? Did they cost $10.00?

It matters so little to me that I don't remember all that well. They are mostly generic HDMI and those cost me an average of $5.00 each. Things get a little non-standard because there is a 30 band 1/3 octave pro eq in there, and the cables into it were made by me out of commodity connectors and cable. There are 2 standard RCA stereo cables and they are at least a decade old, Radio Shack's old gold line, and therefore were probably less than $10 each.

Quote:
It is odd that people are afraid to auditioned different components to see if there are differences between.

Who told you that I've never auditioned more expensive cables, very expensive cables and even hyper-expensive cables?


If you knew anything at all about what you were talking about you'd wish that your P&{%&R was as big around as some of the cables I've auditioned!


Quote:
If you feel that a $10.00 cable works well in your system then good for you. Maybe it's time you step outside your box and explore.

If you only knew who you were talking to, kid. Many people here do, and they are ROTF right now! ;-)
 

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Discussion Starter #52

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk /forum/post/20632608


It matters so little to me that I don't remember all that well. They are mostly generic HDMI and those cost me an average of $5.00 each. Things get a little non-standard because there is a 30 band 1/3 octave pro eq in there, and the cables into it were made by me out of commodity connectors and cable. There are 2 standard RCA stereo cables and they are at least a decade old, Radio Shack's old gold line, and therefore were probably less than $10 each.




Who told you that I've never auditioned more expensive cables, very expensive cables and even hyper-expensive cables?


If you knew anything at all about what you were talking about you'd wish that your P&{%&R was as big around as some of the cables I've auditioned!





If you only knew who you were talking to, kid. Many people here do, and they are ROTF right now! ;-)

I made a general statement in response to your comments. I have no knowledge of what you have auditioned, so I am in no position to comment.

Again I plead ignorance to who you are. Maybe you should enlighten us mortals.

If you believe that your $10.00 cable works best then, that is your belief. Others will disagree regardless whether it is all snake oil.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by richandy /forum/post/20631646


When comparing two cables in the same room and you can hear a difference between several different cables,

Which, if one is honest and compares them blind as opposed to sighted (with all of the attendant expectations bias), will basically never happen...

Quote:
Originally Posted by richandy /forum/post/20631646


as this is a hobby for me I will always experiment within my budget.

Your hobby seems to be low-level commerce, not the enjoyment of music...

Quote:
Originally Posted by richandy /forum/post/20631646


What kind of cables and wires do you use in your system?

Here's what I use, and more importantly, why I use it.


The main system has four source components. In order of use, they are as follows:


-AppleTV, which plays my music library from a remote iMac, my girlfriend's or my MacBooks, or her iPhone. (I don't think it can play off of my HTC Evo, though I've never looked for software.) It is connected to the processor via a single 15' 24 AWG HDMI cable with net jacket (Techflex or clone) covering from Monoprice. I sprung for Techflex-covered cable because I like the looks and the "armor" the Techflex provides from cat claws, and they're cheap enough anyway. Why so long? Because I care about things that audibly matter. The equipment rack is off to the side rather than between the front speakers, so as to avoid diffraction. (The coffee table is also to one side, rather than providing reflections between loudspeakers and listeners.)


-Oppo BDP-83, to play DVD-A and SACD music, as well as movies on disk. It uses the same HDMI cable discussed above.


-MacBook (mine and my gf's), connects to the processor with a 12' optical cable (cheapest one from amazon when I bought it with a standard end and a mini end) for audio, and with a white HDMI and HDMI-miniDVI adapter for video, both from Monoprice.


-OTA HDTV tuner in 46" Sony LCD. (We don't have cable, and hopefully AppleTV will get NFL Sunday Ticket so we'll not have to get it in the fall.) It is connected via a 15ish' optical cable to the processor, brand unknown and source unknown. It was in my wire bin. There is also another 15' Monoprice HDMI cable going from processor to TV input.


My turntable is not currently hooked up.


The preamplfication functions, i.e. volume control, source selection, and signal processing/room correction, are integrated with the mains amplification into a single unit. So no wires to clutter things up there (thankfully!)


But there are also line-level, RCA-terminated analog wires going from the main preamp to the a separate subwoofer EQ and from there to the subwoofer amplifiers. (Because I care about things that are actually audible, I run a Geddes-style multisub system.) If memory serves, the wire from the preamp to the miniDSP is a left-over 1m Vampire Wire one with molded RCA end that I bought for my car installation because its jacket closely matched my roadster's British Racing Green paint. The ULF and one of the BroadBand subs use the same wire. The third sub has a plate amp, and it uses one of the one Rat Shack wires with decent ends and an exposed spring strain relief. (Megacable?)


Speaker wire (except for subs) is mil-spec M22759/11/14, which means 14AWG silver-plated copper with Teflon insulation. I think the common application of this wire is jet motors and stuff like that. (Why 14AWG? My longest run is almost 20', and my speakers' drop to a little under 5Ω. So 16AWG is borderline, and I'm conservative.) I picked this wire because it had the thinnest jacket of any 14AWG wire I could find. (I don't want garden hoses in my room. They're hard to hide. Three lengths of speaker wire are hard enough to hide along a baseboard without extra bulk!) It's in a twisted-pair configuration - I've never counted the twists per meter, as I don't care - because that's how it came. (For a little less than $0.23 per foot, I might add, in a 250' spool.) I covered it in charcoal-grey Techflex for looks. On the amp end, it is terminated in the plastic-barrel banana plugs Parts Express sells for $0.85 in quantities of 10 or more, obviously in red and black. On the speaker end, my current speakers work best with bare wire so they are on terminated.


I used Esoteric Audio Isopath in my old system. It was solid core 14AWG OFHC copper with Teflon insulation that was sheathed in an attractive light teal hose. I also covered it in charcoal-grey Techflex. I bought it for less than the scrap value of the copper when Esoteric Audio USA liquidated their stock at their old factory, which was near my home at the time, and paid 17.25 cents per foot for it. I discontinued using it because solid core wire is a big PITA. It comes loose from SpeakOns, is hard to bend (though it does hold its shape well), and the hose it comes in looked too big with my current mains.


The two subs with remote sub amps use old black Esoteric Audio "Streetwires" cable, 12AWG, covered in Techflex that blends into the carpet. (One run goes under the door to the balcony, along the baseboard.) On the amp end they have the plastic-barrel PE bananas. On the sub end they have SpeakOns.


In the past, I've bought some effing expensive wires, including at one point spending $1200 for a single 2m pair of interconnects, because they were in Wes Phillips' reference system at the time (and I was an idiot). I still have those. They have very pretty locking RCA ends. They sound exactly the same as blister-pack RCAs from Target, or any other RCA wire.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by richandy /forum/post/20628640


You are funny, you sound like a politician. Are you part of the Lib. Dem. party? You sound like you have turn ****e into a kidney pie.

Good for you.

Nah, he just got an ego of the kind that keep writing huge checks despite the last hundred or so has allready bounced (and most people nowadays use their credit card, and wouldn't touch them checks with a five foot stick)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA /forum/post/20632328



Now back to your cell padding alchemy. Do you have any idea why the makers of your speakers...which you say you like the sound of...went to great pains to make their off axis as close to a spectral mirror of the on axis, as possible?


cheers,


AJ

AJ,

how about providing an ETC response one speaker at a time so the measurements can dictate how much off-axis energy is present via first-order reflections. a simple graph would be much easier than trying to push speakers as a cure for the fundamental issues in small acoustical spaces. or, since you believe early reflections are beneficial to reproduction, maybe he should move his stereo into his bathroom? the smaller the better, right?


and why do you continue to be obnoxious and going to polar extremes by pretending that people are actually recommending "padding" the entire room. this is getting very old very quickly.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by richandy /forum/post/20632057


As far as I am concern, it seems that acoustic treatment varies from person to person, so if when I get these items and do a comparison with I have now,

no - treatments are measurable via the waterfall plot (LF freq response + LF time decays), and the ETC will detail you specular reflection attenuation.


it doesn't vary from person to person - it is measurable. whether it "sounds" better to you is subjective.


and one question, why on the first page did you state:
Quote:
Originally Posted by richandy /forum/post/20626704


I don't have any wave issues at hand,

are you insisting that you do not have modal issues in your space? could you please provide measurements to backup your claims?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by localhost127 /forum/post/20632962


AJ,

how about providing an ETC response one speaker at a time so the measurements can dictate how much off-axis energy is present via first-order reflections. a simple graph would be much easier than trying to push speakers as a cure for the fundamental issues in small acoustical spaces. or, since you believe early reflections are beneficial to reproduction, maybe he should move his stereo into his bathroom? the smaller the better, right?


and why do you continue to be obnoxious and going to polar extremes by pretending that people are actually recommending "padding" the entire room. this is getting very old very quickly.

Dipoles have their pro's, no use in denying that. The biggest one is that they radiate in a way that make room treatment less nessecery. I am sure AJ enyoys his dipoles, as I used dipoles similar to what I beleave AJ has (or had -seems like he has changed his drivers ad baffle geometry now), before I switched to my current setup. I also have quite some time (edit: several sessions at his premesis, not in my room, as it might have come across) on the bigger Transmission Audio's (since I know the designer through a swedish hifi-forum and his shop is pretty close to where I live, and he is one of the most humble yet knowledgable speaker designers I have ever come to know -and he has quite a track record...).


But, dipoles also has several drawbacks. Tiny sweetspot (due to high directivity), diffraction artifacts from the large baffles etc., poor max SPL and high distortion at higher levels (if you don't scale up to Trasmission Audio's size and number of drivers, which is insanely costly, to say the least, as well as generating an even smaller sweetspot). Loads of reflections from the back wall renders a sort of "sameness", IMHO, all in all -an impressive, but diffuse soundstage in livelier rooms, but a soundstage that does not convey depth, other than that all instruments are lined up at the same depth -again "sameness").
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hevi /forum/post/20633119


Dipoles have their pro's, no use in denying that. The biggest one is that they radiate in a way that make room treatment less nessecery. I am sure AJ enyoys his dipoles, as I used dipoles similar to what I beleave AJ has (or had -seems like he has changed his drivers ad baffle geometry now), before I switched to my current setup. I also have quite some time (edit: several sessions at his premesis, not in my room, as it might have come across) on the bigger Transmission Audio's (since I know the designer through a swedish hifi-forum and his shop is pretty close to where I live, and he is one of the most humble yet knowledgable speaker designers I have ever come to know -and he has quite a track record...).


But, dipoles also has several drawbacks. Tiny sweetspot (due to high directivity), diffraction artifacts from the large baffles etc., poor max SPL and high distortion at higher levels (if you don't scale up to Trasmission Audio's size and number of drivers, which is insanely costly, to say the least, as well as generating an even smaller sweetspot). Loads of reflections from the back wall renders a sort of "sameness", IMHO, all in all -an impressive, but diffuse soundstage in livelier rooms, but a soundstage that does not convey depth, other than that all instruments are lined up at the same depth -again "sameness").

that's all well and good. it would be nice to see ETC response of a single dipole in a "typical" small acoustical space. it would really remove all this necessary discussion. a simple ETC via Room EQ Wizard would do.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by localhost127 /forum/post/20633328


that's all well and good. it would be nice to see ETC response of a single dipole in a "typical" small acoustical space. it would really remove all this necessary discussion. a simple ETC via Room EQ Wizard would do.

I *totally* agree, that would be very interesting. But, to be honnest, in your mind, do you really beleave we're gonna see *any* mearsurements from...say, AJ?
I have made my choise (as seen in the vid in my signature).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by richandy /forum/post/20632715


If you believe that your $10.00 cable works best then, that is your belief.

You're up to it again. First you claim that I'm afraid to listen to expensive cables in expensive systems, and now you want to minimize what I've said as if it is some off-the-wall religious belief.


(1) Do you believe that Science works and generally tells the truth, or do you live in the world of black magic and sorcery? If you believe in science then you should want to know what science says about expensive cables. It says that they generally perform no differently, technically speaking, than ordinary cables.


(2) Do you believe that it is well known that people are very suggestable about what they think they hear? Science says that is true, and in particular the belief that expensive cables have a sound quality advantage is a well-known example of the suggestibiility of naive people. Eliminate the suggestabilty factor from listening tests, and expensive cables sound the same as reasonably-priced ones.

Quote:
Others will disagree regardless whether it is all snake oil.

Of course they will! There people who believe all sorts of crazy things, which is where the phase snake oil comes from.


Obviously, you are such a person. If you wish to disbelieve in all of Science, then try to enjoy your life, but stay away from your audio system because Science is the only way it exists at all.
 
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