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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am very close to buying the Maxx D-ILA projector. It is not HDCP compliant. I want to buy an HD-PVR when it is available (possibly the 921 from Dish) but I am concerned that without HDCP on the projector I won't be able to use it. Do I need to rethink my projector choice?


Thanx
 

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It's doubtful that HDCP DVI out will work on your PJ. However, most PVRs will include Component video out. The question is will the PVR downrez the Component video out. That we still don't know.
 

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THe Zenith HD PVR, for example, does not have DVI out, only component out, which means it will send HD signals out its component out without HDCP.
 

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Let's just hope the HD component output isn't downrezzed.

There are a lot of displays out there with DVI without HDCP. It would be nice to have a HD PVR that output on DVI (without HDCP).

Hopefully they will figure out how to put copy protection only on devices that can record and leave the display devices alone, but whether they will do that is uncertain.


Ken
 

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Remember, just because a box has HDCP doesn't mean it is used. HDCP will only be used for content that requires it, and thus far, there is no such protected content, and there may never be any (at least, not on standard pay television) if the consumer electronics vendors have their way.
 

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You can make a decision based on hope or based on what we know will work.


The 921 will be HDCP compliant and the monitor must be HDCP compliant or you will be required to use analog video connections on any HDCP protected programming.


I bought a new projector and one of my absolute must requirements was that it be HDCP DVI or no sale.


You buy what you want but the best buying decision is an informed one. WE do not know whether the broadcast industry will ever use HDCP but considering that they had already said they will be using it on DishNetwork and on DirecTV, I think you would be wise to, make your wishes for the MAXX LCOS PJ to comply and second to rethink what you are doing until they do.

I saw the MAXX PJ at CES and while I was not impressed with their demo setup, the PJ was working OK. I just felt it was overpriced and complicated (Special len$ and outboard Scaler requirements ) for what you got in picture quality. Point being, I think you could do far better in the bang for the buck if you open up your PJ requirements a bit. Here's a suggestion- If you really get strapped into buying a non HDCP PJ then please consider one of the older technologies because it may save you thousands as older technologies projectors sell for a fraction of their introductory price.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by bfdtv
Remember, just because a box has HDCP doesn't mean it is used. HDCP will only be used for content that requires it, and thus far, there is no such protected content, and there may never be any (at least, not on standard pay television) if the consumer electronics vendors have their way.
Quote:
Originally posted by Don Landis
The 921 will be HDCP compliant and the monitor must be HDCP compliant or you will be required to use analog video connections on any HDCP protected programming.
These are conflicting statements. If a STB outputs on a HDCP-DVI (with the HDCP 'flag' off), will a non-HDCP-DVI display device work with it? Or will it just not communicate at all?


Ken
 

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Baronken,


The comments above are not mutually exclusive. There is no such thing as HDCP "with the flag off." DVI is either unencrypted (no flag), or encrypted with HDCP (flagged).


Normally, a box with DVI-CP will just output content as an unencrypted DVI signal, such that it will be viewable by any DVI display. However, if content that HDCP encrypted, as you might expect for PPV at some point, will not be viewable unless the display supports HDCP.


As far as "there will never be any," it is difficult to reconcile the limitations on analog imposed by the HDCP license (for HDCP content), with the proposed "plug and play" agreement's nearly universal rejection of SOC.
 

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bfdtv,

ah, sorry, I should have said confusing statements (to me) instead of conflicting.


Thanks for the info,

Ken
 

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Hey Warren,

Good to see you're still in the hunt. My $.02 is that I'm with Don...seems silly to get a PJ w/o an HDCP compliant DVI input when there are so many great PJs out that have it, and many more likely to follow. It might wind up being unnecessary, but you're talking about spending a lotta bonz, so it'll probably help you sleep better if nothing else :)


Now, I know you have DLP issues, but maybe the next crop of DILAs will have the compliant input? Or the upcoming Sony SXRDs?


TM
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by bfdtv
As far as "there will never be any," it is difficult to reconcile the limitations on analog imposed by the HDCP license (for HDCP content), with the proposed "plug and play" agreement's nearly universal rejection of SOC.
Small point of clarification for those playing at home--in terms of source devices, HDCP doesn't require SOC (or image constraint) for *any* material, HDCP flagged or not. Red herring or not, the "big" issue that everyone is worried about is if DirecTV will ever invoke their SOC circuitry on their HD STBs--if the FCC codifies the PNP MOU, there's nothing to worry about. Still, technically, if DirecTV did their homework correctly for their DVI/HDCP reference STB (i.e., distinct triggers for SOC and for HDCP), there shouldn't be anything to worry about either way...just because they throw the HDCP switch doesn't mean that they have to throw the SOC switch...that would be (or, more correctly, should be a separate choice/action), and one that has nothing to do with HDCP being active. I don't mean to keep being a cheerleader for HDCP, but it needs to be hammered home that HDCP says *nothing* about SOC or image constraint for HDCP source devices--HDCP allows for full resolution HD analog output even if the HDCP flag is active. How DirecTV implemented HDCP, that's another thing.


Now, for HDCP repeater devices, doing away with SOC for broadcasts would be a different matter, and one that I and anyone considering one of the new generation of DVI-input scalers who also happens to need analog to the display would gladly welcome. SOC for HDCP repeater devices is a very real "threat," at least to me in my situation.


It should be noted that whatever the FCC says about SOC, it will only be for broadcasts, and not pre-recorded content, and this could make manufacturers of HDCP repeater devices like scalers go insane unless there is a wholesale revision to the HDCP license. For example, if the FCC "outlaws" SOC for broadcasts, then even if a program is flagged HDCP, an HDCP-compliant scaler would be allowed (nay, required) to output full resolution HD analog...but if HDCP is also used for something like HD-DVD, then the scaler would "have" to apply SOC per the HDCP license. I guess if the FCC does act on SOC, then the HDCP license will all but *have* to be re-written to nuke SOC, if only for logistical reasons. If it is re-written to "do away" with SOC, then everyone worrying about full resolution analog HD outputs not being supported by future sources (e.g., HD-DVD) would only need to buy an HDCP-compliant scaler, and voila, full resolution analog HD, even if the source evices doesn't support analog outputs. Or perhaps they'll use one of the undefined HDCP data stream elements to supports flags for "Analog Allowed" vs. "Apply SOC"....who knows....it boggles the mind.
 

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Wow, my head is spinning.
 

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rogo- Most of what alex posted is "what if" speculation. The simple solution is to restrict your purchase decision to HDCP for the future. The buzz at CES this year was that DVI/HDCP was the way of the future and this is why most projector manufacturers were getting with the program. A few veterans like JVC with their 3 year old dila technology are dragging their feet. Other hold outs like Mitsubishi is slowly coming around to adding dvi hdcp in future sets. There has been lots of debate on this in the projector forum and I suggest anyone who wishes to have their heads spun around and around to go there and read some of the debates. The conclusion most come to is that in today's buying market for long term projector investment like 3+ years life, go HDCP. If you buy a PJ every 2 years, a non-HDCP model in the interim would be OK except that it may be about as worthless as a 5000/HDTV mod if E* shuts 4psk down. Alex pointed out in his complex collection of what if's options for killing the RGB analog for HDTV and non-broadcast. No-one knows today what the industry will do tomorrow. But, with all the equipment with DVI going HDCP and all the 1394 stuff adding 5C, one better be prepared for that possibility on a long term projector investment so as to have the state of the art picture without worry of being shut out of HDTV for something you want to watch.


BTW- the JVC SX21, original brochure stated it was DVI/HDCP compliant but recently retracted that part of their spec when they were challenged on the validity of it by members of this forum. Basically, JVC was caught lying about their DILA compliance. Dwin on the other hand failed to state that their projector was HDCP compliant in the spec sheet while their rep claimed it was. They updated their spec sheet based on demands for accuracy by members of this forum.

Furthermore- Dwin engineers discovered a flaw in the HDCP software and this is global, not just on Dwin's implementation. The software is being rewritten and expected to be released later this summer. Dwin, fortunately, has a field replaceable board that will be upgraded free of charge when the new software is available. Some projectors sold today under the HDCP claim will not work if HDCP is implemented and must be sent back to the factory to be upgraded. DWIN is also the only HDCP certified scaler to use two selectable DVI inputs and a DVI-HDCP umbilical from the PJ scaler switcher to the projector head upto 50 ft away.


I felt that with having an HD-DVD with DVI and a PVR921 with DVI, that needing at least two inputs with HDCP com pliancy was a wise move for the future. No other switch box or DVI scaler converter is HDCP compliant licensed for switching DVI. So, this year DWIN is it. I'd bet next year many manufacturers will be offering 2 and 3 DVI switchable input scalers with HDCP.


Of course- if HDCP fails, it will all be worry over nothing. A remote possibility.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Anthony,


Yeah, still in the hunt. I think its close to the end though. This HDCP thing is the one real stumbling block for me.


I am going out of town for a few weeks and wont have much access to the internet so I wanted thank everyone for thier help with this before I left. I'll let you guys know what I end up with. (That is if I ever actually buy anywhing:) )


THanx again
 

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Don, where did you get the information about the SX21 not being HDCP compliant? I just ordered a Samsung DVD-HD931 last night but the post today say that the DVI out will not work with non-HDCP compliant displays.


If I can find definitive word on this I will cancel the order (or re-think the projector choice...It is due to be installed in about three weeks....)


On this same subject, has anyone put together a list of HDCP front projectors?


Thanks,


Kevin
 

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Kevin-There is no list of compliant HDCP projectors that I know of. A few people tried to make the case of compliancy with a membership list posted on the web but this list is way out of date so it is not valid. The best source is to contact the manufacturer of your projector and specifically ask them whether the projector is HDCP compliant.


You can read tyhis thread, particularly post 1 and 10.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=SX21+AND+HDCP


I had the original referenced PDF on the sx21 and where it showed INPUTS the DVI-D (HDCP) was recently changed to just DVI-D.


There are other serious issues with this projector besides the lack of HDCP but people who just have to have dila are ignoring these issues, like color accuracy, even when compared with the G15 and 150, Over heating causing operational stability, high fan noise. If HDCP is important to you then you should reconsider.


It is to me because I don't buy a PJ every year and the next generation of recorders I want to get must be HDCP DVI to work with my projector. People who seemed cavalier to this with the SX21 also don't plan to keep it more than 2 years either.


IMO, there is no perfect projector. Everyone has problems. So have fun determining what suits you best and just make an informed buying decision. FWIW- I selected the Dwin TV-3. It is the only PJ with 2 DVI HDCP's. It is the most popular PJ shipping right now so they are hard to get.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by kpd
Don, where did you get the information about the SX21 not being HDCP compliant? I just ordered a Samsung DVD-HD931 last night but the post today say that the DVI out will not work with non-HDCP compliant displays.
Kevin,


The lack of HDCP support on the SX21 is pretty much accepted as correct by most on the >$5k forum, although there are rumors that it may be added by JVC to new shipments at some point. JVC (and Tom Stites) were claiming that their G150 DVI input was HDCP compliant for a long time. Tom Stites no longer posts on these forums because of the flack about it. At least one person had asked point blank if it was HDCP compliant before placing their order for the G150 and Tom had replied that it was. Not that long ago JVC literature on the net started disappearing (or got changed) when people pointed out that they were still claiming HDCP compliance for the G150. A similar thing happened recently when someone posted a link to some JVC documentation saying that the SX21 was HDCP compliant. The document quickly disappeared.


So, long story short, if JVC made the SX21 DVI input HDCP compliant they would let people know and reduce the amount of flack they are getting. I'm pretty confident it is not.


BTW: I am also confident that their brightness numbers for the SX21 are bogus. They were claiming 1500 lumens at CEDIA last September. All reports are that they had to backoff their brightness after that because of some heat issues with the 3 panels, but instead of fixing it everywhere they have allowed some rebadgers to claim 1600 lumens, they have left lumens specs off of some of the webpages, they let projectorcentral.com list 1500 lumens and I've read at least one seller of this model say that the correct spec is 1200 lumens now. I used to trust JVC. The evidence I've seen recently makes me think I was wrong.


--Darin
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Don Landis
There are other serious issues ... like color accuracy
Don,


I don't want people to get the wrong idea here. You are right that there is talk that the colors are not as accurate as the other D-ILAs you mentioned, but I think most evidence is that they are more accurate than the single chip DLPs. I haven't seen comparisons with the S2 and Transvision 3, but Evan Powell reported that you wouldn't realize that the 7200 colors weren't accurate unless you put it next to an SX21. It sounds like the G150 is the pinnacle for color accuracy, so there are a lot of projectors that aren't as accurate, but wouldn't really be said to have a "serious issue" with colors by most. The S2 and TV3 also don't seem to stack up for color accuracy to the 3 chip DLPs, so they could also be said to have issues with color accuracy.


--Darin
 

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Most companies now are run by lawyers, or bean counters.

The engineers with integrity have been pushed aside.


Dave
 

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Darin and Don, thanks for the information. I now have one lingering question:


What is the point of having a DVI-D input on a projector (or any other display) that is not HDCP compliant?


Am I missing something or will none of the new DVD players with DVI out work on a non-complaint display?


If this is the case then why the heck would anyone build a non-compliant display with DVI inputs???


Kevin
 
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