AVS Forum banner
  • Our native mobile app has a new name: Fora Communities. Learn more.

Is it possible to cobine a truly Reference quality HT and stereo setup

1666 Views 25 Replies 10 Participants Last post by  Buzz Goddard
I am getting frustrated trying to incorporate a state of the art Home Theater setup with a 2 channel stereo setup. A 5 channel amp is convenient, but monoblocks sound better for stereo. I want to use digital connections throughout but, SACD is analog out only. Speaker selection isn't as big a concern but, what's great for stereo may not be great for HT and vise versa. Then you have sound reflections off of the rear projection cabinet, bass settings change between stereo only and HT listening. Even the preamp is now becoming a problem. For example, my Krell HTS is fully digital but, in order to use SACD I have to use analog and I cannot do so with the HTS, because it doesn't have an analog bypass. Great Preamps do but, they can't handle all of the home theater tasks..get the idea. How can it be done? I am making it sound even more difficult than it is but, the perfect preamp/pro could help things a little but it doesn't exist. Any suggestions?
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Hey Eric Bee,


This is Scottyb(no relation). I know you already own the Krell but the Theta Casablanca does analog bypass and it also has high end d to a's. I've struggled with the same thing myself. I use two mono blocks for the front and use a five channel for the center and rears and leave two channels empty(you can always find a three channel amp). Also I pull my speakers out into the room(marked where they go) when I do two channel listening. A little bit of a pain but much better sound. Hope to hear others ideas as i deal with the same thing Eric does! Cheers!!


Scott
Eric,

this is indeed an interesting topic. So much of audio/ and actually most things in life is perception. One thing I prefer about video equipment is that its fairly easy to see if something wont hold black level, but with audio, every time you make a change, it could sound different- and the difference might or might not be a direct result of that change. For example, suppose you change a generic Markertek cable for a "high end" Kimber Cable. Suppose you have a tiny headache or you hit your toe on the way to the couch. Your perception will be affected. One thing you can do to appreciate what you have is turn it all off for a few days- use the rptvs internal speakers, then after a couple of days try your system out- it will be like having a new system and you will find a new appreciation for it all!


As far as reflections off the RPTV, etc, thats just tradeoffs, everything has them. If you put together a dedicated audio system, youd discover your room dimensions arent perfect, or if they are theres something else thats a problem- there are always tradeoffs, the key is to discover the ones youre willing to live with.


IMHO, the answer to your question is definately yes. The quality of the components and the executution of the design in things like Krell, or Theta or Meridian, is so good and this goes for well put together amps also. I think if you get equipment (source, processor, amp, speakers) that is very "musical" or "audiophile" you can have a really enjoyable audiophile experience with 2 channel PCM CD and with HT. For turntables, you would think youd want an analog bypass, but (and this will be controversial and its my own opinion) with a really good A-D converter as many of these products have and you can buy seperately, youll get a very nice sound. SACD surely presents an interesting thing, but I wouldnt go crazy building a system around it yet. Of course, youd need analog pass throughs to really enjoy it, but there are all sorts of questions that have to be answered before I think you should really alter your system.


Now there are those that insist on an analog source, dedicated 2 channel preamp, perhaps a tube amp, and special "audiophile speakers"; thats great, whatever makes you happy. Ive heard these systems, and IMHO, these high end digital pre/pros are up to the task. I know of a few people who bought Meridian 861s merely as 2 channel playback devices, and ended up getting "suckered" into the excitement of HT.


- Jerry
See less See more
Eric,

One thing I forgot to adress when I first replied was the reflections off the BIG RPTV. I used to use a decorative three panel(cloth) room divider, purchased from Pier One Imports for $80, for first reflections on one side wall. A little later I purchased "real" panels for this purpose from Acoustic Science. I asked them what I should do with the room divider and he told me to put in front of the RPTV when doing two channel listening. It made a huge difference in depth of the soundstage. It only takes one minute to move it there and back when I'm done so well worth it and the cost is incidental. It also looks nice in my room and they have a number of different styles. The gentleman at Acoustic Sciences also said I could just throw a heavy blanket over the TV but I have a 70" monitor so the panel job is eaiser. As aerialman said, nothing is perfect but these are a few simple ways to improve without spending very much $. I'm not a true "audiophile" but enjoy good music and try to get the most out of what I have. Hope this helps!


Scott


[This message has been edited by scottyb (edited July 12, 2000).]
See less See more
(IMHO)If you are truly doing Class A home theater and 2 channel audio they should be done in seperate rooms. The acoustical treatment, design of the room, speaker placement, and position of primary listening points are vastly different. Many people will emphasize equipment choices, but for me it is more about the room.

Don O


[This message has been edited by Don O'Brien (edited July 12, 2000).]
Gotta agree with Don. I separated mine, too. I'd love to get them married because I have state of the art stereo speakers but it just doesn't work for us mainly audio guys. IMO, you either optomize the audio experience at the expense of the HT experience, or vice-versa.
I agree about the room comments- forgot to add that- but with the right layout (harmonic theory) you can have a very good compromise- is it the best of both worlds- not necessarily, but it can be very good. frankly after listening to things in trifield, Ill never go back to 2 channel so the extra speakers that HT requires- so long as they are direct radiators- just add to the experience (I realize some of this goes against the grain of some audiophiles)


- Jerry
I am just beginning the process of treating my room. I am using a designer to help us. It is too early to tell what the results will be.


He feels that you can have good music and good HT with the proper room.


From the reading I have done so far I am convinced that you can dramatically improve the sound by dealing with your room. I do not as yet have the specifics and experience.


I would suggest, before giving up, to start researching room treatement.


From what little I have read I think you can have excellent music and HT at the same time. It looks like this has to be a room specifically laid out and designed for both, however.


If and when we do our room I will post the results, but that is likely months away.


Chuck


------------------

Chuck Traywick

Kitty Hawk, NC
See less See more
I agree with Jerry that I've heard state of the art HT set ups that sound very good. I found a Revel Salon based system particularly impressive.


But, for me, the two channel Revel version, properly set up and positionally optomized, was far better for music.


As for surround sound for music, it just isn't there yet, IMO. It's not the equipment's fault. I think the software has a ways to go still.


So, I keep the systems separate for now.
If I were to combine them, I'd do it exactly as MikeW has.
I hate to beat my point to death, but a few examples may illustrate my point.

With a 2 channel setup the reverberant field (ambience) is not direct, but reflected. Without this field, the sound collapses into the speaker.

With a multichannel/home theater setup this ambient information is generated by the surround speakers directly and requires different treatment of the rear of the room to avoid problems between the sound generated by the front speakers (off the rear wall) and that sound that is directly generated by the rear speakers.

With home theater you want an RT60 of about .35, with Stereo listening much higher. With 2 channel you want speakers with a wider cone of dispersion to achieve improved imaging, with home theater speakers controlled dispersion is more desirable. With home theater you would like to be able to achieve excellent sound in multiple spots, with 2 channel sound you can only optimize for 1 spot to achieve good imaging. I realize this could be debated ad nauseum, but the question begs this response.

don O


[This message has been edited by Don O'Brien (edited July 13, 2000).]


[This message has been edited by Don O'Brien (edited July 14, 2000).]
See less See more
DON O,Just because you have five speakers doesn't mean you need to have all going during all music listening, so the rear speakers don't even come into play if they're not on as far as interference with fronts. I do both in one room with, not great, but very, very good results. Also treat the room as best as possible for multi tasking.

Everyone else, Its' a no brainer to seperate the two systems but not everyone can afford to do this or has room in their house.(wife, kids,dog,computer and other things).We must make the best of our given situation and enjoy the music or the movies. It won't always be perfect but what is? I think we need to be thankful we can do more than the majority of the people out there. Sorry didn't mean to get so emotional but I, like most on this and other forums, am spoiled and I too often take it for granted. Do the best you can with what you have. That is the bottom line. Hope I didn't offend anyone, this is said with passion not with scorn.


Scott
See less See more
Very interesting subject, as this is exactly what I have been working on for the last few years....I would suggest that in a perfect world, two separate systems of extreme quality should be "better", but that a combined system may well bring about greater personal involvement due to it's very duality of purpose. The enjoyment of one aspect of this hobby has often led me to a greater appreciation, and enjoyment, of the other side (audio and video).As far as obtaining the best performance in this possibly compromised situation, I would argue that one must first determine those parameters of greatest personal value, then use those goals as targets.


In my own case, audio (and especially, stereo) qualities were of greatest importance and hence dictated to at least some extent speaker positioning, choices in equipment, and so on. In fact, my own failure to truly render transparent a RPTV (I used ASC wall panels, wave panels, tube traps, curved masonite/diffusor panel, etc., but never managed to pass the test of not noticing the difference made when the TV was physically moved away)was one of the greatest factors in moving to a FPTV and that disappearing screen! (though mind you, I appreciate the projector for a lot more than just things audio). This has left me with speakers moved quite a bit into the room, about the 1/3 point, and with a preamp/amp combo that does a nice job with music as job 1(Theta, Bryston). Speakers are, interestingly enough, both direct firing and yet limited dispersion: Newform Research ribbon/scanspeak hybrids utilizing a monopolar line source ribbon (45" tall, the ribbon that is, hence not a perfect line source) that supplies vertical directivity without the necessity of THX artifacts. I liked them for music first, before appreciating their qualities as video speakers. Various foolishly expensive wires and suchlike audiophile trappings round out the system.


Two things have stood out as time has passed: First, the room was absolutely critical in achieving good sound (a litle room treatment was astonishing, and proper speaker/seating placement imperative), and second was the discovery that whatever I did that brought better sound also brought about a concomitant increase in video involvement/enjoyment. There was not a separation here, they were in fact joined at the hip.....Which leads me to the supposition that the integration of the two systems is a worthy goal in and of itself. (Although I can't say that additional channels has, in the main, brought about greater audio fidelity at this point- I still prefer stereo listening to most of my music. But then, I still play RECORDS on occasion, so obviously there's no hope for me)


As a bit of background, the qualities I most prize in audio are accurate tonality/frequency response, natural detail, soundstaging (an orchestra should sound farther away than a small group, and appropriately sized-a sense of space, of air, is needed here) and frequency extension at both ends. I want speakers to "disappear", aurally, and not just when the lights are dimmed- loudspeakers should not (short of vicious pan-potting!) normally seem to be the producers of the soundfield. I want the Wizard of Oz's curtain not pulled back! When I obtain these qualities for audio, what do you know-the movies get a heck of a lot more interesting. As far as things video, I sit at about two screen widths, the room is light controlled, and color/sightlines/etc are planned appropriately. My screen is on the small size, which fits my own parameters (visual "pop", detail and proper geometry combined with reduced artifacts).


Hmmm...my little two cents worth appears to have stretched out to a buck plus change, and it's now past midnight with an early meeting tomorrow. Oh, joy. I guess I'll post and regret later...be kind now, I'm a junior member!

See less See more
Scotty B,

I believe you misunderstood my response.

Ericbee asked about providing a "truly reference" setup for both 2 channel and home theater. This created this interesting "theoretical" discussion. If he had asked about how to do both stereo and multichannel in one room without using "truly reference" as a qualifier I believe my response would have to be amended. I have the same practical considerations that you do. My comments were not intended to be snooty, but to respond to the topic matter as best as I could.

If you treat the rear of the room for home theater and reduce the RT60 to .35 you will significantly compromise the ambience that is necessary for excellent 2 channel listening. If you do not treat the rear of the room and leave the RT60 higher your 2 channel ambience will be good, but for home theater the ambient information generated by your front channel speakers will interfere with the direct sound from the surround channels "muddying" your home theater performance.

I admire your fortitude to create both. Dragging your speakers out into the room is a sign that you are serious about your music listening. My preference is to do 2 channel and home theater in seperate rooms because of the unique acoustical requirements of both. I find the objective acoustical research is consistent with my subjective comparisons of this situation. I was in no way trying to influence your opinion (always a fruitless endeavor) just sharing the unique acoustical design needs of stereo vs. multichannel.

Don O


[This message has been edited by Don O'Brien (edited July 14, 2000).]
See less See more
What you "hear" is your room. This cannot be avoided. The two primary (meaning published) works in this area indicate that 50%, or slightly more, of what you hear is the room, not the speakers. [See note below]


With that in mind, the acoustic reproduction requirements for two-channel playback are not only different from the requirements for multi-channel playback, in most cases the requirements are exactly opposite from each other. It is important, I think, to characterize this discussion as "playback". We can "playback" a dual-mono recording in a multi-channel system and, conversely, a multi-channel recording on a two-channel system. So, our focus here is not the original recording format; but, rather the playback environment of two speakers vs more than two.


That being said, you can still achieve excellent (albeit, not "purist") music playback from an HT system and room. With processors such as the Lexicon, Meridian and others, two channel recordings are playback very nicely in a multi-channel mode (ie, Logic Seven, Trifield, etc.).


While "purists" may attack systems that 'extract' the reverberent field information from a two-channel recording and move that information to surround channels, I find that such approaches give me much more control over matching the free-field and reverberent field spaces in my own room. IOW, I can put the critical distance exactly where I want it.


We must remember, in many cases (certainly not all) with music, the reverberent field information is added to the mix! I point to devices from Lexicon, Yamaha, and the new Sony DRE-S777 as examples of such devices used in mixing rooms and studios. As a point in fact, both Sony and Yamaha have done absolutely first class jobs in accurately mapping the reverberation environments of churches, halls, sound stages and other recording venues to allow these characteristics to be added to an "in studio" recording session.


So, the short answer is not only no, it is absolutely not. You cannot create a single acoustic environment that works well for both playback methods. You can install moveable panels but that is not a single playback environment. You can also achieve excellent results on two-channel material when played back through a multi-channel optimized system.


[N.B. This once again brings home my point on speaker budgets. If you have an $8000 or even $4000 budget for speakers, a portion of that speaker budget needs to be applied to the room! No manufacturer's speaker system (including Meridian DSP's) can overcome poor room acoustics and Bob Stewart would be one of the first to jump up and agree.]


------------------

D. Erskine

DEsign Cinema Privee
www.DEsignCinema.com

Imagine what you could do, if you could do all you imagine.
See less See more
Dennis,

would it be possible for me obtain the 2 articles you are referring to. If you could direct me appropriately I would appreciate it.

Thanks

Don O
"Multidimensional RElationship between Subjective Listening Impression and Objective Loudspeaker Parameters", Wolfgang Klippel, Acustica, Vol. 70, 1990.


"The Effects of Loudspeaker Placement on Listener Preference Ratings", Sean Olive, Peter L. Schuck, JAES Vol. 42 (1994).


Dr. Floyd Toole and Sean Olive did the most work in this area.


------------------

D. Erskine

DEsign Cinema Privee
www.DEsignCinema.com

Imagine what you could do, if you could do all you imagine.
See less See more
Thank you Dennis.

Don O
Don O: I'm interested in where your RT60 figure of merit of .35 is derived from. I'm also assuming that this is not the sole figure used to insure good sound, but instead used as a ready example to differentiate the varying acoustic needs of the audio and video worlds. I would suggest, indeed, that the works I have seen stress the need of an RFZ as much as a particular RT60 time. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I'm genuinely interested in what the basis for your figure is.....


Perhaps another question of interest here is, what is the paradigm? When we ask what a good listening room is for audio or video, what are we referring to as the reference? Is it an AES standard room with an RFZ of such-and-such duration, RT60 of given quantity, and treatment to provide a given frequency balance? Or do we aim for the Live End/Dead End approach or the nearfield studio? As far as movie sound goes, is it the theater itself or the dubbing/mixing stage where works the sound designer? Resultant approaches differ.


Dennis E: What are the characteristics that you see as required for each room/environment that are directly opposed to each other? IOW, what is required for a home audio room which is anathema to the video/theater environ, and vice versa? As an aside, isn't the ambience generation approach also flawed, in that a recorded ambient field is forced into a limited number of channels and then imprinted upon an already existent room signature? The minimum number of channels I've seen talked about that has a reasonable chance of simulating reality to some extent appears to be about ten, including height information (Holman's and other's work?). No current processor can supply this information (i.e., extracted from typical media, as opposed to pre-recorded sources such as Ambisonics) at present.


I suppose there is no theoretical basis for a perfect audio and theater system in one combined space, which appears to be the start of this thread. I would argue that very, very good results can be obtained in the real world, and perhaps this is more germane to those people looking for solutions to the vexing problem of too many dollars and too much space taken up by separate systems. Don't give up....good sound and good theater can coexist! (Oh no....there go my purist credentials...!) http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


-Aerlith
See less See more
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top