[Hoss27]

I'm still in the planning stages but I think I pretty well have my budget system figured out. I just need some help with the sub. I am pretty sure I will be attempting to build a set of Zaph's 3'' wide range satellites and cross them over at 150hz. I would really like to get as low as possible and still have good sound quality. I just don't know if that is asking to much when on a limited budget. Size is not as much of an issue as budget. I was thinking of something along the lines of this: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=746138


How good would this setup sound? Would it be worth forking over aprox. 400-450 bucks for? TIA

 

[Gir_1337]

It's usually desirable to keep the crossover below 120Hz. Our ears can't locate where a sound is coming from when the frequency is below 120Hz (this is obviously somewhat subjective). So when a sub starts putting out frequencies above 120Hz you can hear where it is coming from, which for a single sub is usually undesirable.


What is the effective frequency range for the Zaph's?


[Edit]

And yes, it is possible for a sub to go from 150Hz down to below 20Hz.

 

[Willd]

I think the Dayton Ref series would be a decent choice for a xover that high.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=295-464

 

[PLincoln]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gir_1337 /forum/post/0


It's usually desirable to keep the crossover below 120Hz. Our ears can't locate where a sound is coming from when the frequency is below 120Hz (this is obviously somewhat subjective). So when a sub starts putting out frequencies above 120Hz you can hear where it is coming from, which for a single sub is usually undesirable.

unless of course the sub is located on the front stage near the mains...then the higher xover wont be localized since you wont be able to tell if it's the mains or sub that is reproducing those frequencies. In some of my testing with my IB, I've found that the higher xover actually yields a flatter response...ie 80hz vs 150hz...the 150hz xover eliminated some combing between the mains and subs.

 

[stevdart]

In answer to your subject title: sure its possible. The extended high range does nothing to affect the performance at the bottom end. But as for what you asked in your post: no, I wouldn't cross a subwoofer with 3" mids. Those drivers won't produce midbass, and you need midbass before you get to sub bass. If you design your system so that the sub handles this responsibility, then you will need to use two subs in a stereo configuration because of the localizaton of sound in the 80+ Hz region. Doing this can blow a limited budget.

 

[Hoss27]

Thanks for all the help folks. Well that sucks I figured the measured response being fairly flat down to 150hz on those speakers meant they would be able to handle things from 150hz on up. How much of a boost in that range should I look for in a response graph of other speakers? Zaph also suggests running two subs if possible. He also suggests setting the crossover at 200hz and then running the plate amp full range for more power handling. Maybe I should try the 200hz cross?


What would happen if I got one of those cheap $80 Sony subs to handle things between say 50hz and 150/200?


Some stupid questions I know, I just hope someone has pity on me and takes the time to answer. LOL Thanks again.

 

[crackyflipside]



Quote:
Originally Posted by stevdart /forum/post/0


In answer to your subject title: sure its possible. The extended high range does nothing to affect the performance at the bottom end. But as for what you asked in your post: no, I wouldn't cross a subwoofer with 3" mids. Those drivers won't produce midbass, and you need midbass before you get to sub bass. If you design your system so that the sub handles this responsibility, then you will need to use two subs in a stereo configuration because of the localizaton of sound in the 80+ Hz region. Doing this can blow a limited budget.

Just the thing with my set-up in the computer room.


2 sattellite size speakers stacked on eachother to make some more output before the Rythmik kicks in which is crossed at the highest it can go and is located directly in front of me so no localization issues can arise. And I still get a dip in the FR at about 170-200hz.

 

[Hoss27]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gir_1337 /forum/post/0


It's usually desirable to keep the crossover below 120Hz. Our ears can't locate where a sound is coming from when the frequency is below 120Hz (this is obviously somewhat subjective). So when a sub starts putting out frequencies above 120Hz you can hear where it is coming from, which for a single sub is usually undesirable.


What is the effective frequency range for the Zaph's?


[Edit]

And yes, it is possible for a sub to go from 150Hz down to below 20Hz.

Well.. I thought it was 150-20k but now I am not sure.

Speaker design

Measured Response


Obviously my main interest in putting some of these together is all the parts can be had for around 125 bucks for a set of 5. I figured they would at least be as good as a set of Bose and a good measure better than any HTiB speakers.

I'm not an audiophile by any stretch of the imagination but I would like to hear dialogue clearly when I watch movies.

 

[Gir_1337]



Quote:
In answer to your subject title: sure its possible. The extended high range does nothing to affect the performance at the bottom end. But as for what you asked in your post: no, I wouldn't cross a subwoofer with 3" mids. Those drivers won't produce midbass, and you need midbass before you get to sub bass. If you design your system so that the sub handles this responsibility, then you will need to use two subs in a stereo configuration because of the localizaton of sound in the 80+ Hz region. Doing this can blow a limited budget.

I'm with stevdart. Your best bet is to build to subs in stereo to limit the localization and set the crossover a lot higher.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but ideally don't you want around one or two octaves above and below the crossover point of effective range on both speakers? This obviously depends on what kind of crossover is applied...

Quote:
Obviously my main interest in putting some of these together is all the parts can be had for around 125 bucks for a set of 5. I figured they would at least be as good as a set of Bose and a good measure better than any HTiB speakers. I'm not an audiophile by any stretch of the imagination but I would like to hear dialogue clearly when I watch movies.

Wow, that's a hell of a price for a system like that. Looks like a crossover of around 200-250 (maybe even 300) with stereo subwoofers would work. Thoughts?

 

[Hoss27]

Considering the budget I think I'll try the one big sub, then if it doesn't sound very good I'll save up some more and do dual subs. Thanks for all the suggestions.

 

[two-rocks]

Just finished 5 of the 3" Zaph design... (my old Adire 281'a and LCC were too large for the new "room", plus I never had matching surrounds) plus I found them fatiguing......


I also took my 12" shiva from my original sonosub

and made a small sealed sub.

I'm very pleased with the 3" Hi-vi Zaph design and sound, but I can only cross them over at 120hz (Receivers limitation), and at that frequency they seem to have limited headroom for loud movies. Keep in mind my perspective - the very capable Adire 281's!


The speakers only have a few hours on them, and not very loud at that- tomorrow I'll be able to loosen them up for a few hours and see what happens.


I'll have to dig up the link on a MTM using the b3n and TM025F1... already have the tweets, and it looked interesting.

 

[two-rocks]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gir_1337 /forum/post/0


Wow, that's a hell of a price for a system like that. Looks like a crossover of around 200-250 (maybe even 300) with stereo subwoofers would work. Thoughts?

The cheap XO built into the plate amps is a very poor match for this speaker, so using the high level inputs for a stereo setup is out. If you can't center the single sub, your better off with dual mono subs. Zaph's site has the details...

 

[Hoss27]



Quote:
Originally Posted by two-rocks /forum/post/0


Just finished 5 of the 3" Zaph design... (my old Adire 281'a and LCC were too large for the new "room", plus I never had matching surrounds) plus I found them fatiguing......


I also took my 12" shiva from my original sonosub

and made a small sealed sub.

I'm very pleased with the 3" Hi-vi Zaph design and sound, but I can only cross them over at 120hz (Receivers limitation), and at that frequency they seem to have limited headroom for loud movies. Keep in mind my perspective - the very capable Adire 281's!


The speakers only have a few hours on them, and not very loud at that- tomorrow I'll be able to loosen them up for a few hours and see what happens.


I'll have to dig up the link on a MTM using the b3n and TM025F1... already have the tweets, and it looked interesting.

Awesome glad to hear you are fairly pleased with them. I need to double check and make sure the onkyo 504 will cross them at 150-200. I have been trying to search for someone that has built these for a couple months now. I think I just found the link you were talking about. Do you think they would play a lot louder if they were crossed above 120?

Hi Vi MTM design


Looks pretty sweet maybe I'll build some of those once I get the cash saved up.

 

[two-rocks]

More than pleased with them... I tried several HTIB setups, but could not stand the sound. These are leaps and bounds better....


That's the MTM design I was thinking...... I'll probably make a pair next week.... (forgot how much I enjoyed making speakers!)


The limit with the Hi-vi crossed over at lower frequencies in the cone excursion. They will easily take the 80 watts from my Onkyo at higher frequencies (significantly more power actually), but lower frequencies from a 3" driver is just not possible. I think crossing at 150 is perfect, 200hz (IMHO) would send too much through the sub (vocals)

 

[REVNU]

I also built the Zaph 3" Hi-Vi's. I have them mated with a Hsu STF-2 crossed at 120Hz and am very pleased with the sound.


At first I tried nearfield placement of the sub in my 10' x10' room and did not like it because the 120Hz xover was too easy to localize. I moved it to the front right corner and played with the xover. 100Hz was too low, 150Hz seemed too high, I was losing a lot of the "kick" in music and movies. It basically sounded like an entire range of frequencies were missing from the bottom end.


I went back to 120Hz and am very pleased with the sound. Granted I have not measured or calibrated my system yet, so my crossover point could change after doing that, but for now a 120Hz xover sounds the best in my set up.

 

[Concillian]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoss27 /forum/post/9578967


Thanks for all the help folks. Well that sucks I figured the measured response being fairly flat down to 150hz on those speakers meant they would be able to handle things from 150hz on up. How much of a boost in that range should I look for in a response graph of other speakers? Zaph also suggests running two subs if possible. He also suggests setting the crossover at 200hz and then running the plate amp full range for more power handling. Maybe I should try the 200hz cross?

Frequency response is only one portion of the equation. You'll notice later in teh article, he has an excursion plot and mentions that they exceed xmax at 8W at 90Hz. they don't take too much more power to exceed at 150Hz.


He also says that they are fairly inefficient. This means that you aren't going to play them loud no matter what. They won't be loud with just a few watts and if you give them too much juice, they start exceeding their linear excursion and distorting.


His bargain mini (4" woofer + 0.75" tweeter) is a much better option for use with a "real" sub becaus ethey can handle decent power if crossed over in the 80-100 Hz range. With the 3" single driver you're pretty limited in what you get for a "sub".


Any single driver sub is going to be a little iffy crossed at 150 Hz. You can do it, but you'll likely be able to hear directionality of the sub. And personally, I find this more distracting than a sub that doesn't play super low. Hearing midbass that locates the sub is something that's annoying to me.


I think you're much better off getting 2 small 6" or 8" subs (tang band 6" sub is a popular media option) and running them stereo because you will have some directional sound coming from them. I wouldn't build some monster HT sub and hook them up to 3" full range drivers as mains. If that's your plan, you should at least step up to using something like the 4" bargain mini that can handle an 80-100Hz cross much better.

 

[Concillian]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoss27 /forum/post/9602753


Hi Vi MTM design


Looks pretty sweet maybe I'll build some of those once I get the cash saved up.

Audax no longer supplies drivers for DIY. You can't get the tweeters in that design anymore.

 

[armystud0911]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoss27 /forum/post/9602753


Awesome glad to hear you are fairly pleased with them. I need to double check and make sure the onkyo 504 will cross them at 150-200. I have been trying to search for someone that has built these for a couple months now. I think I just found the link you were talking about. Do you think they would play a lot louder if they were crossed above 120?

Hi Vi MTM design


Looks pretty sweet maybe I'll build some of those once I get the cash saved up.

I used to own a 504, yes it will, you can choose crossovers up to 200Hz with it. Also, why not build a pair of lower cost subs instead of one expensive one?


Here is my idea to you, if your on a budget, you don't need $130 woofers get two of these http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=295-490 and put them in 3.5-5 cubic enclosures, tuned from 27Hz to 20Hz,(depending on your box size). Now you can get 110dB's of output from $70 of woofers. Powering them can be done with plate amp, you can hook up 1 or 2 of the voice coils depending on your desired load. Now here is another idea and where it gets a little interesting. I can't remember what Onkyo's zone 2 options for that receiver, if you can use zone 2 inputs while using the 5.1 receiver for decoding amplification, you will have an interesting and very cost effective way of powering your subs. You can just use the subwoofer output and plug it into your zone 2 inputs, then you can use your rear surround channels to power your subs.

 

[Stefan]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoss27 /forum/post/9578967



What would happen if I got one of those cheap $80 Sony subs to handle things between say 50hz and 150/200?

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=309-402


If you want to go that route here's a cheap solution for 50 -150/200Hz. You would probably want 2 of them and place them underneath or near each of your mains. you would also need either a crossover and/or a plate amp with a built-in crossover for each one. Then to cover 50Hz and below you could cross over to a real sub.