[nobleknight]


Hello everyone,

 

So 3 months or so ago I finally decided to allow myself what I've always wanted since being a teenager browsing Stereophile magazine at the library, a true pro setup. Here's the thing, I primarily listen to heavy metal. All over the place from the typical Disturbed, Pantera, Metallica, to black metal such as Dimmu Borgir, death metal such as Nile, power metal like Rhapsody, Stratovarious, techno metal with bass, etc. I've got about 10 cd's I've been listening to on the systems I've been demoing, over and over. One of them is the new Lady Gaga, and man that sounds great on anything. But the other CD's are hit or miss. The main thing I hear is a REVERB to TINNY type sound, like the band is playing off in the corner, or there is a medium echo in the music. This can be heard on all systems to a high (very annoying) degree, or a low degree. The more I turned up subs the more this went away. This also can be heard on cheap systems, but somewhat easily EQ'd away. None of the dealers have any EQ setup so I haven't been able to flirt with that except for the occasional treble knob, which doesn't help much. Does anyone have any idea what I'm talking about or how to find the system that would best eliminate this? The dealers have had several hypotheses from the all too simple "crappy recording being revealed" (which I don't really believe is the case with a number of these such as new Stratovarius and Disturbed's Believe), too "high fi systems shoot for a wide sound stage" to "these are made more for classical, etc." To help explain further I've listed a number of the systems that I've demoed below along with my notes. My apologies on not knowing the exact details of everything. The dealers up here are all VERY friendly, but also don't all exactly have great ability to switch equipment or actually even play the items that they would recommend to me.

 

**Second part of my question is also advice on the equipment below and any thoughts here or otherwise. My budget for the system (including surround sound, projector etc) is around 80-100k IF I'm totally blown away. Yes I know that is a lot of money. That budget is for a full audio/video system, however, what I'm really concerned about is 2 channel audio. I'm not nearly as picky about movies as I don't even know what to listen for and figure I'll be happy with anything I come up with in that regard (correct me if I'm wrong). My room is fairly large, about 25x45x9 and naturally I haven't heard anything down there yet.

 

Here's what I've demoed in the shops:

Monitor Audio - Platinums, powered by a Sunfire amp (model unknown), Marantz CD player and preamp, as well as 2 JL Audio F212's, in a large room (20x35). Sounded VERY tinny. Wasn't impressed at all with the Monitors. The JL Audio subs sounded great though and put out a ton of bass.

 

Revel Salon 2 - powered by an older powerful Crown amp (model unknown), Marantz CD Player and preamp, as well as 2 JL Audio F212's in a large room (20x35x10). Similar setup to the above. One of the best sounding setups yet. There was only a bit of the tininess/reverb sound on this system, but enough for me to question what is going on. Plus the Revels are very pricey (18k) so I want to make sure I get it right. The bass oddly wasn't nearly as impactful with the Salon2's, no idea why, I just didn't seem blown away by it at all, and I had the subs turned up near 3/4 volume.

 

Paradigm - Signature S8 powered by a McIntosh two channel amp and Mc preamp (CD Player unknown) along with 1 JL Audio F212, in a smallish room (12x15x10). Now, this was probably the best sounding setup of them all. At one point listening to these I had a moment where I was moved, all of a sudden everything came together. I keep thinking this is the system, but I read bad things about the Mc and the Paradigm or not nearly in the same class as some of the speakers so I'm wondering if it was the ROOM. Only one sub and it seemed to just kick hard and the tininess/reverb was to a minimum, especially after the owner made a cable swap (seemed to actually make a difference) based on my complaints. Was it the Mcintosh amps??

 

I've also listened to Bryston Model 2's, Wilsons (some set around 50k), and B&W (something around 12k), with decent amps but only average subs. Was underwhelmed with all of those, the Model T's sounded the best. The one thing I'm pretty for sure on is that the JL subs easily carried the day in most situations, so I think I'm going to spring for 2 Gotham G213 and assume that will at least totally take care of the bass part of things. I'm hoping to demo the Paradigms again and see if I get the same feeling, and also the Revels again as well as perhaps try the Legacy higher end stuff. Any other recommendations and general advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Aaron

 

[commsysman]

I personally like Vandersteen speakers; the best sound you can get for the type of music I listen to (jazz, classical, bluegrass). I have the Vandersteen Treos, which are wonderful.


But for YOUR music, I won't recommend them. Not enough impact, punch.


The speakers that will give you the kind of punch and clean sound you want are the KEF Q900 speakers (see KEF Direct).


They are great-sounding for almost any kind of music, and they have dual 8-inch woofers that pretty much make a subwoofer redundant. For rock music, they are hard to beat (and damn good for anything else too).


I would get those and try them before you get a subwoofer. For comments on that issue, read the Stereophile review of them.


For an amplifier. I suggest the Musical Fidelity M6i integrated amplifier. It will deliver around 300 watts per channel to those speakers, and it is the best-sounding integrated amp I know of; you won't hear anything but perfect sound from it! It is only $3000, which is a steal. It is better-sounding than many costing twice as much.


Those speakers and that amp will make you smile from ear to ear.


I use the Musical Fidelity M6PRX power amplifier with an Audio Research LS26 preamp, and that is also sound to die for, but it will run you around $10K to go that route.

 

[TVMAN1991]

I'll let you in on a little secret that us dudes who follow science and evidence know,


The amp, whether it be Mcintosh or Krell, or what have you will make zero difference in the sound. You might THINK it does, but as long as they measure the same way and are providing clean undistorted power, they will sound exactly alike. It's proven. The only things that truly change the sound or frequency response you get is the room, the speakers, and the room EQ system you use.


Same with the CD players. I wanted to believe this stuff so bad, but it just isn't true.


On to the speakers - interesting, as I've owned the Monitor PL200 and Paradigm S6 and have demod the Ultimas.


The Ultimas and S6/S8 both use a Berrylium tweeter which although is exceptionally smooth, it shouldn't be smoother than the awesome ribbon in the PL200. Go with the SPEAKER you like the most, the equipment will not change the sound. When you get them home, it WILL sound different in your room as well.


EDIT - The Kef Q900 are nice, but he wants a higher end speaker. The Kef 203/2 would be excellent as they measure very well and are polite on the ears. But, you will be pairing them with subs anyways, so who cares!

 

[mumps]

I think what your encountering in your search is a problem I have encountered as well. One CD sounds great, yet another sounds thin, lifeless and weak.


The way I see it, if you are a million dollar selling artist (like Gaga), then the record producers put money into your recording... ie the sound quality is better. I've played a Celine Dion album for the ex wife that I hated, but sounded really good.


As far as metal music goes, there are a wide array of great bands, but unfortunately a lot of them suffer from the "no money to make a good recording" issue. Really old cd's that were originally on vinyl have sounded terrible and weak, unless they were remastered.


Some suggestions I can make for some music that sounds really good:


Symphony X - Iconoclast

Arch Matheos - Sympathetic Resonance

Any classics that have been remastered, such as:


Iron Maiden

Rush

Black Sabbath

King Diamond

etc.


The last thing I would recommend would be a great player, besides the speakers. A great universal player, such as the OPPO 105 will let you take advantage of all of the music media (CD, SACD, DVD-A, Bluray, etc.), as the best sounding music is definitely the high res stuff.


Good luck in your hunt, and ENJOY YOURSELF!


Chris

 

[commsysman]

Sure; amps all sound the same...on paper; so it must be true!


I have been HEARING the exact opposite for 40 years, but obviously someone thinks he knows better.


When I replaced my Bryston 3BSST amplifier with the Musical Fidelity M6PRX, my wife and I both immediately heard how much better it sounded; no doubt about it! I was perfectly prepared to send it back if it wasn't noticeably better, but that's not what happened (and I should say that the Bryston is pretty damn good; the M-F is just better).


But according to some, there can't be any difference. Right. If someone else can't hear the difference in sound quality, that is where they are at. That is their personal problem.


It would be nice if they would not try to impose that dubious kind of opinion on the rest of us, as if it were the undeniable truth as revealed in their religion.


A Toyota Corolla and a Porsche are just the same too; they both get you from A to B, so how can there be any difference?

 

[G-Rex]

Pass your sound through pro amps, Krell, or Crown amps and then tell me they sound the same as McIntosh, Ypsilon or Accuphase. If they do then it's time for a new hobby. Their sonic signatures are quite different. Many here think all bluray players, processors, amps sound/look the same.

 

[commsysman]



Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex  /t/1517748/is-it-the-equipment-or-m...l-gotham-parasound-mcintosh-etc#post_24356219


Pass your sound through pro amps, Krell, or Crown amps and then tell me they sound the same as McIntosh, Ypsilon or Accuphase. If they do then it's time for a new hobby. Their sonic signatures are quite different. Many here think all bluray players, processors, amps sound/look the same.

+1

 

[G-Rex]

To original poster, you may want to audition Egglestonworks speakers. Andra ll or 3 for your mains. I have them paired to McIntosh amps and it a very dynamic set up. Two 12" Dynaudio woofers in each speaker in a push push configuration. Very tight nonboomy powerful bass. Lots of energy with these speakers so they sound best in a fairly large room. Great for your type of music or any other in 2 channel or HT. The Platinums are very good but you should audition their large towers.

 

[commsysman]

I suggest that you get a OPPO BDP-105 and take it with you when you go to audition stuff. That will eliminate a major variable (although listening in stores is not a good way to find out anything anyway; get it home, listen for 4 days, and then send/take it back if you don't like it).


The 105 is the state of the art in CD reproduction. The SABRE DACs are so good that the 105 sounds better than almost any CD player you can buy for under $10K.


It has made a LOT of very expensive CD players obsolete, or at least relegated them to an overpriced 2nd-class status.


I sold my $6000 Ayre C5 player after I got mine.


The 105 has totally changed the CD game; it is literally the first affordable CD player ( in 30 years of trying...) to unlock the full potential of CD playback IMO.


I have 30-year-old CDs that I always thought were crappy CDs until I got the 105; now they sound like a million bucks.


(example; Delos CD 4001; "Joe Williams; Nothin' But the Blues"; purchased in 1983)

 

[donutfan]



Quote:
But the other CD's are hit or miss. The main thing I hear is a REVERB to TINNY type sound, like the band is playing off in the corner, or there is a medium echo in the music. This can be heard on all systems to a high (very annoying) degree, or a low degree. The more I turned up subs the more this went away.

Unfortunately, generally speaking much pop & rock music is not recorded all that well (and as a punk fan, I have personal experience with this). And what has made many newer recordings & even many remasters of older albums sound nearly unlistenable to many people - i.e. sharp/tinny/crunchy and "in your face" - is the nasty trend of overcompressing a recording*, usually to make it seem louder via radio (in hope of grabbing a listener's attention) and IMO simply to make XYZ studio's recordings sound more "exciting" vs. other studios' projects.


And since so many people these days use their phones, tablets and little Bluetooth-equipped "boomboxes" to play back their music, it looks like many recording engineers are being forced to use unnatural EQ settings to help overcome the sonic deficiencies of those devices.


I believe all the above is very possibly what you are hearing on those higher quality/better resolving systems. And turning up the subwoofers is probably resulting in relatively better sound because it is helping to compensate for certain recordings' over-brightness (caused by EQ choices and/or overcompression).


This is why I pretty much stopped using high quality recordings to demo speakers & now use recordings I listen to regularly: if a set of speakers makes my ears hurt when listening to a Fugazi, Sigur Rós, Animal Collective or Black Flag album, I try something else.


Lastly: yes, CD players can sound different from each other. Personal experience talking here so that statement isn't based on hearsay or "audiophool" sources. Same with amps, though IMO speakers and the room have much more affect on the final sound one hears.


* lots more here:

"Loudness means NOTHING on the radio – The Proof" - with samples

turnmeup.org


BTW since overcompression can bring the volume level up of all sounds in a recording, it is possible that is why you may be hearing that reverb/echo effect you mentioned: what should have been a subtle addition to the music is now pushed too far "up front".

 

[ermghoti]

Current metal is on the bleeding edge of the volume wars, dynamic range in the mid-low single digits is the norm. Sounds awful, and I have no bias against the genre.


Re: echoes, do you have DSP enabled?

 

[TVMAN1991]



Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman  /t/1517748/is-it-the-equipment-or-m...l-gotham-parasound-mcintosh-etc#post_24356183


Sure; amps all sound the same...on paper; so it must be true!


I have been HEARING the exact opposite for 40 years, but obviously someone thinks he knows better.


When I replaced my Bryston 3BSST amplifier with the Musical Fidelity M6PRX, my wife and I both immediately heard how much better it sounded; no doubt about it! I was perfectly prepared to send it back if it wasn't noticeably better, but that's not what happened (and I should say that the Bryston is pretty damn good; the M-F is just better).


But according to some, there can't be any difference. Right. If someone else can't hear the difference in sound quality, that is where they are at. That is their personal problem.


It would be nice if they would not try to impose that dubious kind of opinion on the rest of us, as if it were the undeniable truth as revealed in their religion.


A Toyota Corolla and a Porsche are just the same too; they both get you from A to B, so how can there be any difference?

Dubious?


Lol. How come is it then when there is TRUE double blind ABX testing that EVERY SINGLE TIME conclusively NO ONE hears a difference.


Don't get distracted by the name and look.


Amplifiers are quite simple designs.


Explain to me EXACTLY and SCIENTIFICALLY what makes amplifiers sound different? I would like to hear an explanation.


And your analogy about a Porsche and a Corolla is utterly flawed in this case. It bears ZERO debate whatsoever. The Porsche is statistically faster in every way. It's scientific. More power and torque and a better chassis and suspension EQUATE into quantifiable evidence. 0-60 in 3.9 instead of 9.2 is something you can see and measure. 72 through the slalom is faster than 64.


A perfect frequency response between 20-20,000 cycles with less than 1% at distortion @ 100 watts into 8 ohms will always sound the same.

 

[commsysman]

I have over 40 years of amplifier design experience, and your comments make it obvious that you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about amplifier design or performance fundamentals.

I can show you 10 different amplifiers that will all deliver the same power into a RESISTIVE LOAD from 20-20K Hz, and they will all sound (and MEASURE) different when driving speakers.The distortion will also be much higher in every case than with a simple resistive load.


The fact that you seem to think driving an 8 ohm resistor on a test bench is equivalent to real-world performance reveals your complete lack of understanding of the interaction between an amplifier and the complex load (varying amounts of inductive and capacitive reactance) presented by any speaker system .In evaluating speakers in an engineering lab, either a real speaker or a load simulating typical speaker reactances and resistances is used; not just a resistor!

This is partly because some of those amplifiers will have a much lower output impedance than the others, and can drive a SPEAKER, with its impedance variations at different frequencies, much better than others.


They will have a more linear output when driving a speaker, and have less distortion; and of course this results in better sound quality.


That is one major issue that determines amplifier sound quality, which you are seemingly unaware of, and there are many many others.


Any competent engineer with amplifier design experience would NEVER make the kind of preposterous claims that you make. They make you look ridiculous, which is what your statements are.


The best way for you to stop showing how ridiculously inexperienced and uninformed you are in this field is to simply stop talking until you have had a few years of university education in electrical engineering, plus a few years of actual circuit design experience.


It is painfully obvious that you have neither.




P.S.- It is well known that actual ABX tests are invariably badly flawed.

One requirement to make such a test valid, and which is almost NEVER done, would be to make a group of subjects very familiar with a particular passage (or passages) of music beforehand and then use it (them).

Experts agree that this should be done, yet it never seems to be done.
I can give you four or five other reasons why these tests never reveal any differences, but it all comes down to poor methodology and poor execution.

It is easy to conduct a test that yields no useful results; just do it badly. Doing it badly over and over will still prove absolutely nothing.

The fact that a test reveals no differences proves conclusively only that the TEST revealed no differences.


It DOES NOT PROVE THAT NO DIFFERENCES EXISTED; just that the test was not able to reveal differences.





,

Quote:
Originally Posted by TVMAN1991  /t/1517748/is-it-the-equipment-or-m...l-gotham-parasound-mcintosh-etc#post_24357653


Dubious?


Lol. How come is it then when there is TRUE double blind ABX testing that EVERY SINGLE TIME conclusively NO ONE hears a difference.


Don't get distracted by the name and look.


Amplifiers are quite simple designs.


Explain to me EXACTLY and SCIENTIFICALLY what makes amplifiers sound different? I would like to hear an explanation.


And your analogy about a Porsche and a Corolla is utterly flawed in this case. It bears ZERO debate whatsoever. The Porsche is statistically faster in every way. It's scientific. More power and torque and a better chassis and suspension EQUATE into quantifiable evidence. 0-60 in 3.9 instead of 9.2 is something you can see and measure. 72 through the slalom is faster than 64.


A perfect frequency response between 20-20,000 cycles with less than 1% at distortion @ 100 watts into 8 ohms will always sound the same.

 

[psgcdn]



Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman  /t/1517748/is-it-the-equipment-or-m...l-gotham-parasound-mcintosh-etc#post_24356183



When I replaced my Bryston 3BSST amplifier with the Musical Fidelity M6PRX, my wife and I both immediately heard how much better it sounded;

You forgot the part where she didn't know you had replaced it and was simply walking through the room and said "Honey, what did you do to your system? It sounds so much better now!"

 

[MarsianMan]

Opeth and Dream Theater are some of my favorite metal artists and their albums certainly aound better than most mainstream pop/rock.


Blackwater Park is probably one of my favorite albums and has good mix of acoustic and death metal. Get the version with bonus acoustic songs Still Day Beneath the Sun and Patterns in the Ivy II.


We are in different leagues for price range, so can't help you on that...hopefully one day!

 

[commsysman]

That is because it didn't happen that way...lol.


We both listened to some recordings we are very familiar with, and in doing so were easily able to discern differences in sound quality.


She is particularly sensitive to the differences when it comes to some of her favorites; even more so than I am.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn  /t/1517748/is-it-the-equipment-or-m...l-gotham-parasound-mcintosh-etc#post_24358574


You forgot the part where she didn't know you had replaced it and was simply walking through the room and said "Honey, what did you do to your system? It sounds so much better now!"

 

[carp]



Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman  /t/1517748/is-it-the-equipment-or-m...l-gotham-parasound-mcintosh-etc#post_24356183


Sure; amps all sound the same...on paper; so it must be true!


I have been HEARING the exact opposite for 40 years, but obviously someone thinks he knows better.


When I replaced my Bryston 3BSST amplifier with the Musical Fidelity M6PRX, my wife and I both immediately heard how much better it sounded; no doubt about it! I was perfectly prepared to send it back if it wasn't noticeably better, but that's not what happened (and I should say that the Bryston is pretty damn good; the M-F is just better).


But according to some, there can't be any difference. Right. If someone else can't hear the difference in sound quality, that is where they are at. That is their personal problem.


It would be nice if they would not try to impose that dubious kind of opinion on the rest of us, as if it were the undeniable truth as revealed in their religion.


A Toyota Corolla and a Porsche are just the same too; they both get you from A to B, so how can there be any difference?

Have you ever done a blind test of amps to figure it out for yourself? If so, your opinion is the opposite of all the guys that were at my place for a blind amp comparison last summer. All amps were level matched to within 0.2 db's and we could not tell a difference unless we were clipping an amp.


I too thought there was a difference before this and now know it was all l in my head. We had a switcher that allowed us to immediately switch between amps and it was very clear that we were not going to be able to tell the difference.


So anyway, amps schmamps. The biggest variables are the speakers and the room. I am a metal head too and forever I searched for speakers that would make me happy. I tried many different types in my room until I stumbled upon JTR's Noesis speakers. Long story short, I'm in metal heaven.

Sure, some recordings in metal are **** and will never sound "good" but Metallica, Slayer, Pantera, Opeth, Dream Theater, Amon Amarth, Kataklysm, Nightwish, Crowbar, Tool, Death, Nile, After Forever, Iron Maiden, Within Temptation, Type O Negative, Iced Earth, etc. most of it sounds FANTASTIC on my speakers.



Even though my room looks like it is all about home theater (which is is too) music is by far my priority.




http://s232.photobucket.com/user/carlhungus2/media/015_zps61f43c4a.jpg.html

 

[commsysman]

Yes. I certainly have! And we could certainly tell which amplifiers sounded better, with well-recorded acoustic music and high-quality speakers that were set up by experts who knew the speakers and respected the acoustics of the room.


But I am certain I could not tell the difference either, with that "music" you describe, and that absurdly arranged conglomeration of "speakers".


I would prefer to listen to recordings of car crashes. I am sure they would all sound the same too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp  /t/1517748/is-it-the-equipment-or-m...l-gotham-parasound-mcintosh-etc#post_24358743


Have you ever done a blind test of amps to figure it out for yourself? If so, your opinion is the opposite of all the guys that were at my place for a blind amp comparison last summer. All amps were level matched to within 0.2 db's and we could not tell a difference unless we were clipping an amp.


I too thought there was a difference before this and now know it was all l in my head. We had a switcher that allowed us to immediately switch between amps and it was very clear that we were not going to be able to tell the difference.


So anyway, amps schmamps. The biggest variables are the speakers and the room. I am a metal head too and forever I searched for speakers that would make me happy. I tried many different types in my room until I stumbled upon JTR's Noesis speakers. Long story short, I'm in metal heaven.

Sure, some recordings in metal are **** and will never sound "good" but Metallica, Slayer, Pantera, Opeth, Dream Theater, Amon Amarth, Kataklysm, Nightwish, Crowbar, Tool, Death, Nile, After Forever, Iron Maiden, Within Temptation, Type O Negative, Iced Earth, etc. most of it sounds FANTASTIC on my speakers.



Even though my room looks like it is all about home theater (which is is too) music is by far my priority.




http://s232.photobucket.com/user/carlhungus2/media/015_zps61f43c4a.jpg.html

 

[MarsianMan]

I am very curious how a JTR Single8 sounds with Metal. Not sure I will ever spend enough for a Noesis setup, but maybe I can do Single8s. I am enjoying metal on my current bookshelves; instrument separation makes such a big difference!

 

[cel4145]



Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman  /t/1517748/is-it-the-equipment-or-m...l-gotham-parasound-mcintosh-etc#post_24358476

I have over 40 years of amplifier design experience, and your comments make it obvious that you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about amplifier design or performance fundamentals.

This is quite different from what you told us before about what you did:

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman  /t/1374063/replace-a-resistor-on-a-crossover#post_21256643


Since you seem to want to know who or what I am; my brief CV is:


12 years as engineering tech in aerospace (Rockwell & Douglas Aircraft), 32 years as electronics professor at Santa Ana College, and currently a semi-retired communications systems consulant


and trouble-shooter who does specialized site analysis for Verizon, Mororola, Sprint, etc. when they have intermodulation/interference problems that they need expert help to solve; hence "Commsysman" (what it says on my business card). (BS and MS from CSULB and UCLA)