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Is JVC 30k known to have chroma bug ?

701 Views 26 Replies 10 Participants Last post by Mark Hoepfl, Apr 17, 2003

tango03

Discussion Starter · Apr 12, 2003

Hi.

Since JVC 30k uses MPEG-2 compression, and current HD broadcast as well as D-Theater are 4:2:0 format, I think it does have potential to have chroma upsampling error.

Is the MPEG decoder in JVC 30k D-VHS deck known to have the chroma bug ?

Thanks.

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1 - 20 of 27 Posts

David Wallis

· #2 · Apr 12, 2003

I have two 30k's and unfortunately the mpeg decoder does exhibit the chroma up-sampling error. I talked with Mr Spears and Mr Munsil about discussing this in the 30k review, but it looks like the 30k review is not going to happen on Secrets equipment review web site.

DavidW

ptrubey

· #3 · Apr 13, 2003

Where will the 30K review show up, or is it TBD?

I have the feeling that we're going to still be hearing about the chroma bug even when HD-DVD players arrive...

leszek1

· #4 · Apr 13, 2003

It's better to use a dedicated external decoder with the 30K anyway. I did not see the chroma bug in the Samsung T165. T165 will play the D-Theater tapes no problem and you can use its DVI port for pure digital connection to the display.

ptrubey

· #5 · Apr 13, 2003

I take it the HD MPEG decoder inthe T165 is better than the one in the JVC 30000? Do you use the firewire port to output HD video from the JVC to the Samsung? Could you hook up the Samsung and the JVC via firewire and then have the Samsung output HD video (D-Theater originated) on its component output?

Mark Hoepfl

· #6 · Apr 13, 2003

any idea why secrets won't review the 30K?????

cheers

mark

leszek1

· #7 · Apr 13, 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by ptrubey
I take it the HD MPEG decoder inthe T165 is better than the one in the JVC 30000? Do you use the firewire port to output HD video from the JVC to the Samsung? Could you hook up the Samsung and the JVC via firewire and then have the Samsung output HD video (D-Theater originated) on its component output?

yes, yes, yes - component or DVI, but not RGB

darinp

· #8 · Apr 13, 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by leszek1
It's better to use a dedicated external decoder with the 30K anyway. I did not see the chroma bug in the Samsung T165. T165 will play the D-Theater tapes no problem and you can use its DVI port for pure digital connection to the display.

Leszek,

Can the T165 convert 1080i to 720p or another reasonably high resolution? The reason I'm asking is that I'm currently using a D-ILA that is a little older and the 1080i input with film based material isn't as good as it could be (the HTPC blows it away and DVDs from TheaterTek aren't far away). Clean video based 1080i still looks incredible, but I'm wondering if 720p into the projector would look better for some things.

Basically, I'm looking for a good deinterlacer/scaler without spending too much money (instead of a $3k-$4k scaler I would probably buy a new projector). Also, some kind of gamma control before the projector would be nice. I still need to try your latest software with my 169time recordings to see how they work, too. HD LOTR through ZoomPlayer is pretty incredible and it would be nice to approach that for my 169time recordings.

Also, you said that D-Theater stuff couldn't go out the RGB on the T165. Can non-encrypted stuff go out that way?

Thanks,

Darin

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Steve Bruzonsky

· #9 · Apr 13, 2003

I use the RGB 15 pin output of the Samsung 165 and it works great - except it will not pass encrypted D-Theater stuff by design. The component output will pass encrypted D-Theater stuff.

darinp

· #10 · Apr 13, 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bruzonsky
I use the RGB 15 pin output of the Samsung 165 and it works great - except it will not pass encrypted D-Theater stuff by design. The component output will pass encrypted D-Theater stuff.

Thanks Steve. I just got done reading a bunch of stuff about the 165 and saw that you had posted this in the main thread for that. I see so much complaining about it only being a good solution for people with the 30k that I'm wondering why I haven't seen more used ones for sale. Maybe I just missed those sales or all the good investigative work some of you guys did early on kept many people from making a mistake. I found a brand new one for sale for $520 and now I'm thinking about it.

I should probably try to figure out how well my D-ILA does with 1080i over RGB (my AccessDTV will help me with this testing), besides testing Leszek's latest code with 169time recordings, before taking the plunge.

Thanks,

Darin

ptrubey

· #11 · Apr 13, 2003

Ah crap - I was going to buy a Samsung 160 (DirecTV and OTA HD Receiver) for my main TV receiver, and now it sounds like a T165 (which is OTA only) is what I need to make the 30K do its best.

Out of curiosity, are there any other devices out there that would take D-Theater firewire in from the 30K and output component video (or DVI) out?

Steve Bruzonsky

· #12 · Apr 13, 2003

There might be some sort of Pro device but it would cost mega many thousands of dollars. Do for you and me as consumers, the answer is a no.

leszek1

· #13 · Apr 13, 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by darinp
Leszek,

Can the T165 convert 1080i to 720p or another reasonably high resolution?

Also, you said that D-Theater stuff couldnp't go out the RGB on the T165. Can non-encrypted stuff go out that way?

Thanks,

Darin

Hi Darin,

On the samsung, the input resolution is independent of the output. You select the output resolution with a switch on the back (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i) and the samsung converts if necessary the input resolution to the output resolution selected. Given that, however the samsung will not do 1080i->1080p->720p, but instead, like most other hardware currently available will do 1080i->540p->720p when converting 1080i to 720p. This is good for video and for encrypted D-Theater stuff.

For non-encrypted HD movies, I believe your PC has enough power to remove the 3-2 pulldown and give you 1080i->1080p->720p (or 768p

) In addition the PC gives you full gamma control.

Non-encrypted input is available on the RGB output. With 5c encrypted stuff you're limited to either component or DVI with DHCP.

Leszek

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ptrubey

· #14 · Apr 13, 2003

Has anyone done an A-B comparison of component out from the JVC 30000 and component out from a Samsung 165 conected to the JVC 30000 via firewire? I wonder what the diff in picture quality is?

Li On

· #15 · Apr 14, 2003

Hi,

First time I heard that the D-Theater can be decoded from other device. Is there anywhere on the Samsung STB that say it can decode D-Theater? Does that mean we can use other DVHS transports (Mit, Panny) to play D-Theater to the Samsung for decoding?

If only JVC+Samsung works, that make no sense to me. Anyway I can't understand how the Samsung can decoded the D-Theater if it's not in the official spec. That mean other device may have the D-Theater key undocumented. Or maybe the whole thing is just a setup?

regards,

Li On

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Steve Bruzonsky

· #16 · Apr 14, 2003

I tried playing a D-Theater tape in Mitsub 1100U D-VHS VCR via 1394 to JVC D-VHS VCR and you get nada. You need a D-Theater VCR to play back a D-theater encoded tape and that's that. Oh well.

The JVC D-VHS VCR via 1394 and out the component of the Samsung 165 will playback D-Theater tapes, only because the JVC apparently provides the necessary decoding as the data goes out the 1394 (I assume, because this works).

leszek1

· #17 · Apr 14, 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Li On
Hi,

First time I heard that the D-Theater can be decoded from other device. Is there anywhere on the Samsung STB that say it can decode D-Theater? Does that mean we can use other DVHS transports (Mit, Panny) to play D-Theater to the Samsung for decoding?

If only JVC+Samsung works, that make no sense to me. Anyway I can't understand how the Samsung can decoded the D-Theater if it's not in the official spec. That mean other device may have the D-Theater key undocumented. Or maybe the whole thing is just a setup?

regards,

Li On

Li On,

The JVC decrypts D-Theater encryption. After it's in the clear, the deck may or may not send it to another device via firewire. In the fomer case JVC will only send it by encrypting it via 5c (DHCP). In addition it will only send it to non-recording devices. JVC authenticates the samsung as a display device, hence it will send D-Theater originated signal after decrypting it to the Samsung by encrypting the stream via 5c. Most firewire enabled devices today support 5c. This includes the mitsu DVHS. However since the Mitsu is a recording device, JVC will not send D-Theater originated stuff to it.

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Mark Hoepfl

· #18 · Apr 14, 2003

David Wallis,

sent you PM.

would really want to know why secrets wont review the 30K.......

hope you can post reason....

cheers

mark

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Li On

· #19 · Apr 14, 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by leszek1
Li On,

The JVC decrypts D-Theater encryption. After it's in the clear, the deck may or may not send it to another device via firewire. In the fomer case JVC will only send it by encrypting it via 5c (DHCP). In addition it will only send it to non-recording devices. JVC authenticates the samsung as a display device, hence it will send D-Theater originated signal after decrypting it to the Samsung by encrypting the stream via 5c. Most firewire enabled devices today support 5c. This includes the mitsu DVHS. However since the Mitsu is a recording device, JVC will not send D-Theater originated stuff to it.

I see. So the JVC replaces the D-Theater encryption with 5C to talk to the Samsung? Does that mean other 5C comply tuner/TV also work?

Btw, I thought JVC said the 5C is not secure enough so they invent D-Theater.

regards,

Li On

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leszek1

· #20 · Apr 14, 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Li On
I see. So the JVC replaces the D-Theater encryption with 5C to talk to the Samsung? Does that mean other 5C comply tuner/TV also work?

Btw, I thought JVC said the 5C is not secure enough so they invent D-Theater.

regards,

Li On

1) Correct.

2) It's not that 5C is not secure. It's the fact that 5C only encrypts the link between two machines. The data on the tape would be in the clear without D-Theater. The studios didn't like the idea of having data in the clear on tape, especially after DVD encryption was broken.

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1 - 20 of 27 Posts

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