[CaveCanem]

So is LCoS dead?


Please no Trolling or Gloating. I would simply like a rational, well-reasoned discussion.

DEAD
Thomson
Toshiba-Hitachi
Sears-Brillian
Philips

Intel



Are JVC (UMC, Aurora) and possibly Sony the only ones left?


Why did JVC halt production temporarily, does it have a problem that occurs over time like the Toshiba?


Is there a particular build date for the JVC that I should look for?


I was really leaning towards the JVC, but now I am not so sure. Unfortunately, DLPs are out of the question, and LCDs aren't that great for blacks or action. Maybe RP CRT is the way to go temporarily until some of these technologies prove themselves over time.


Crap, I do not want to go back to a dim, ambient-light-reflecting, 300 pound gorilla of a display with a poor viewing angle. My bright white walls, floor-to-ceiling windows, and wide-asymetrical viewing angles will drive me crazy with an RP CRT. I really thought for my viewing situation that the JVC would be ideal.


Looking for recommendations:

(52" to 57" set in the $3500 range for the afore mentioned room.)


Thanks, in advance, for your prompt, detailed and courteous replies.


Sincerely,


J.T.

 

[Jordan420]

Quote:

Originally posted by CaveCanem Why did JVC halt production temporarily, does it have a problem that occurs over time like the Toshiba?

Have you seen this thread?


That very well be the problem, then again maybe not, I think only time will tell.

 

[Razor(Blades)]

Intel is a shrinking company.


AMD has gobbled up their market share for the good part of this year (and a half). AMD has also "won the battle" as far as top of the line processors go. Performance wise, there are about 6 to 7 AMD processors that beat Intel's hard to get and extremely expensive top of the line processor. Plus, Now AMD is superior in their manufacturing process. They have succeeded in where intel has failed - 90nm manufacturing process.


I think Intel is trying to get straight to business and focus on their mainstream chips and its EXACTLY what they need to do. Yes, LCoS would be as mainstream as TI's chips but not initially and I think thats where they saw the problem.. If they are indeed doing the right thing and trying to get back on track..... then they are not in any mood for a big venture with short term losses and possible long term gains.


Keep in mind.. I have AMD stock.. So I'm bias.. but not ignorant and biased. IMO Intel did the right thing for now. It would've been nice to see the further merging of computers and TVs in the fact that my LCoS tv would probably have an Intel Inside sticker on it..When you bring computers into anything it just incudes crazy competition, intel saying their chip is better than TI's chip and blah blah blah. and that means one thing.. lower prices for us.


So to sum it up. David is kicking Goliaths big ass and has been for quite sometime. But now Goliath is actually starting to pay attention. Will they succeed or are they too late? Who knows.

 

[Haidozo]

I would say LCoS is dead since Intel has cancelled further development.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10...tel_lcos_halt/

 

[JaMa]

Quote:

Originally posted by CaveCanem So is LCoS dead? I was really leaning towards the JVC, but now I am not so sure. Unfortunately, DLPs are out of the question, and LCDs aren't that great for blacks or action. Maybe RP CRT is the way to go temporarily until some of these technologies prove themselves over time.

I am not really sure why a technology being "dead" would lead you to believe that a company still producing them would not stand behind them. JVC has NOT stopped ILA production. They had to retool for a few enhancements to the chassis, including cablecard functionality and an additional input IIRC. The technology has only been out since the summer, so I can only imagine as a company they would like to complete a model year, get their initial range of bugs worked out, and move on with real production again.


I bought one of these JVC's and after some service find it to be an awesome set. I came from RP CRT and although there are some differences in quality/motion/color, I find the JVC to be superior in every way.


This industry does seem to be leaning towards DLP for the microdisplay devices, but I am not sure why. I cannot stand DLP. Yes, it looks great to an untrained eye watching football on their big screen every weekend, but anyone with any history of high end video can shoot holes all in it.


Anyway, my 2c


J

 

[ewolf72]

Have you guys seen this yet?

Intel Cancels Plan to Enter Digital TV Chip Market


SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Intel Corp. (Nasdaq:INTC - news) on Thursday said it has scrapped plan to enter the digital television chip business, marking a major retreat from its push into consumer electronics.


The cancellation, which follows a string of missteps by the world's largest chip maker, could ease competition for Texas Instruments Inc. (NYSE:TXN - news), whose own chips for rear-projection televisions have become a successful enterprise.


"What we've decided is that for the investment that's required and the returns we would get and the timeline to get to those returns, that it doesn't make sense for us to pursue this particular technology," Intel spokesman Bill Calder said.


Nine months ago, Intel had announced plans for an aggressive push beyond the personal computer and into consumer electronics with new chips for big-screen high-definition televisions. The chips used a technology called liquid crystal on silicon, or LCoS.


Intel President Paul Otellini, who is expected to take over as chief executive next year, said at the time that Intel would take advantage of a novel technology for television displays -- combining liquid crystals, a mirror-like surface and a silicon chip -- that would appear in $2,000 televisions.


Intel initially planned to deliver chips to TV makers in the second half of this year. But in August, the first signs of trouble surfaced, as Intel indefinitely postponed the project, saying the company had decided to improve picture quality before introducing the product.

 

[umr]

LCoS is anything, but dead. Sony is on the verge of jumping on LCoS in a BIG way. It appears they may be in the process of revamping their manufacturing from LCD to SXRD production. The new HS51 projector uses a 720p panel which very possibly is Epson. I would outsource my current LCD technology if I was going to revamp my manufacturing to a different SXRD product. It should be clear by the end of next year where Sony and JVC are with this technology. I would say the future is still bright for the technology. Intel just chose to exit this market.


Living in Houston and having a friend with TI R&D. I get the strong impression TI is very concerned about their competitive position against LCoS. I expect DLP to disappear if LCoS reaches its potential. The difference in the cost of manufacturing LCoS and DLP is likely to kill DLP in the end.


I have worked for manufacturers that have chosen to exit markets and it does not mean the product is guaranteed to disappear. Others may just be better at it.

 

[Ron Alcasid]

Quote:

Originally posted by CaveCanem Crap, I do not want to go back to a dim, ambient-light-reflecting, 300 pound gorilla of a display with a poor viewing angle. My bright white walls, floor-to-ceiling windows, and wide-asymetrical viewing angles will drive me crazy with an RP CRT. I really thought for my viewing situation that the JVC would be ideal.

If that is the case you may want to hold out for plasma. Rear projection LCOS, DLP and LCD use a similar optical system as RP CRTs. So they have the same issues with viewing angles. In a environment you describe a direct view set would be more appropriate.

 

[Pokelahoma]

Yea, but the JVC has the widest viewing angle out of all the RP TVs I have seen, still not plasma but pretty wide.

 

[Kid Red]

Quote:

Originally posted by CaveCanem So is LCoS dead? Please no Trolling or Gloating. I would simply like a rational, well-reasoned discussion. DEAD Thomson Toshiba-Hitachi Sears-Brillian Philips Intel Are JVC (UMC, Aurora) and possibly Sony the only ones left? Why did JVC halt production temporarily, does it have a problem that occurs over time like the Toshiba? J.T.

LCOS is not dead, just fewer options. I read a poster was told that JVC stopped production to fix some flaw in the set and should kick back up in two weeks. I'm glad to see them fix the issues why it's young. So for build date, I would look for November and beyond.

 

[kyungkim]

not dead.

sony.

if sony leaves, then it is dying, not dead.

I still think jvc is the linchpin. If they can get the problems worked out in their rptvs before more enhancements to lcd (variable iris?) and dlp(1080p) hit, then i think lcos will be my next set, along with alot of other ppl.

K

 

[doug_k]

I wonder how many similiar problems DLP had early on in its lifetime. From what I've heard, it was pretty rocky going for TI in the beginning.

 

[hoodlum]

Within 5 years Flat panels will take away most of sales from the Rear Projection market in the 50" and under market. Which is where most of the volume is now. This will cause a downturn in the number of Rear Projection sales.


If you are not producting LCOS chips now, then you will not have enough time to get to market at a high enough volume to make it worth while. I believe that Sony and JVC are the only real hopes for LCOS. Even Sony's product, as it stands, cannot compete against DLP since it is based on an analog backplane vs the digital backplane from Aurora (JVC). An LCOS RPTV with an analog backplane will always cost more than DLP based on the same volume. Sony will need to change this before they can compete on a pricing/volume level with JVC and DLP.


I personally think we are seeing the end of new LCOS entries. Not the end of LCOS.

 

[umr]

Quote:

Originally posted by hoodlum ... Even Sony's product, as it stands, cannot compete against DLP since it is based on an analog backplane vs the digital backplane from Aurora (JVC). An LCOS RPTV with an analog backplane will always cost more than DLP based on the same volume. Sony will need to change this before they can compete on a pricing/volume level with JVC and DLP. I personally think we are seeing the end of new LCOS entries. Not the end of LCOS.

Why is a digital backplane critical for cost? LCD panels in RPTV's are driven analog and compete with DLP today.

 

[Pokelahoma]

FYI


Victor Co. of Japan Ltd., which makes audio-visual products under the JVC brand, said it might increase production of its large-sized rear projection televisions to meet demand in the U.S.


``We're considering raising production of our HD-ILA models early next year because they are very popular,'' Senior Managing Director Eiichi Tsuchiya said in an interview this week. ``We currently make about 10,000 units a month but backorder is piling up. Demand in the U.S. is all we can handle now.''

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news...t4&refer=japan

 

[JaMa]

Quote:

Originally posted by hoodlum Within 5 years Flat panels will take away most of sales from the Rear Projection market in the 50" and under market. Which is where most of the volume is now. This will cause a downturn in the number of Rear Projection sales.

This is the key point, I think. DLP/RP LCD and LCoS are interim technologies while plasma, native LCD drop in price enough to where the average stiff can afford to buy one. I dont know about anyone else, But if there was a 50" LCD panel in the $2600 range, I would buy that not a D-ILA.


Anyway, even if LCoS *IS* dead, who cares. In 5 years when I am ready to replace my LCoS set, something else will be the rage and I will buy that. I would not try to read too much into all the press hype. Buy what looks good and fits your budget now and when the time comes, worry about the next thing. Don't be a victim to technology shift unless there is a good reason, IMO.


J

 

[NVboy]

I think Intel should be removed from the list. In order to be dead, something had to of lived, and Intel did that only on paper and through speech.

 

[navychop]

---- If that is the case you may want to hold out for plasma.

Plasma has it's drawbacks, too. I'd say there is no such thing as "burn proof" for plasma sets, outside the weird world of marketing.


Just as TI pursued and mastered micro-mirror devices, a few other companies are pursuing and mastering LCoS in several variants. It looks like JVC has developed a good analog LCoS chipset, Aurora has a good digital LCoS chipset, and certainly by all reports Sony has a gorgeous product too. People tend to forget the number of years it took TI to produce a usable product (started development in 1986?) and the problems they had. Even if Aurora became the sole source for LCoS chips, how is that any different from TI and DLP? Once the chip is solid (which seems to be the case today) and production ramps up, they might sell to several manufacturers.


The JVC D-ILA looks great. It is a good product. Oddly, that infuriates some people who will produce emotional posts decreeing that since they don't like them, they are trash (or worse), and anyone thinking otherwise is clueless (or worse). All the manufacturers have produced a few lemons, and this is new technology. How repairs and replacements are handled is important. Early production model troubles may not be. Certainly Samsung has had it's troubles, and we won't even talk about RCA. Yet the DLPs are good units and sell well, growing much faster than expected and cutting into the growth expected for LCDs. Perhaps LCoS will be the next surprise in market share growth. There is still a lot of cost cutting potential in the LCoS chips themselves, and they may undercut DLPs in price. Already, you can get a three chip LCoS for about the same price as a single chip DLP.


Let your eyes be your guide. Look at several different products at several different stores, from the distance and angle you would view them at home. Consider features and any points important to you. They are all good TVs, each has it's own strong and weak points. You will probably be happy with whatever you buy.

 

[rogo]

"I would say LCoS is dead since Intel has cancelled further development."


Intel's failure is just that. Not death of the technology, but I'd say death of any grand hopes for the technology. It's going to be limited to the very high end and may someday crack the Chinese-manufactured low end.


Oh, and umr, Sony is clear that their panels are proprietary Sony in their comments and press releases. I've got no idea if they are telling the truth, but I'd not worry one way or the other WRT LCOS. The SXRD line is totally separate from their LCD microdisplay line. Radically different processes.


Mark

 

[umr]

Quote:

Originally posted by rogo [B...Oh, and umr, Sony is clear that their panels are proprietary Sony in their comments and press releases. I've got no idea if they are telling the truth, but I'd not worry one way or the other WRT LCOS. The SXRD line is totally separate from their LCD microdisplay line. Radically different processes. ... [/b]

I understand they were always producing their own LCD panels in the past. I find it very strange that their latest projector is using a panel size that matches Epson which has not been the case in the past. I know the processes are radically different, but that does not mean they are not revamping a manufacturing facility or two.