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Mark Henninger
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Discussion Starter #21
I feel "airport screens" are completely offtopic on a forum like this. Those are in no way representative of normal use of a TV bought by an audiovideo enthusiast.


The risk of burn in exists. But it existed for plasma too. That hasn't stopped me from using my Kuro for more than nine years now, with pretty much zero burn in problems.
No way I would settle for guaranteed lower quality picture in the name of a *risk*. Certainty vs. risk. I know what to choose.
Well, an airport full of LG OLEDs installed this year and they are all basically ruined and showing extremely severe issues is not totally off topic.

But yeah those panels are likely maxed out and running all day, so torture test.

The simple fact there are also an equal number of completely fine LCDs in the airport must mean something g to someone, even if it means little or nothing to you.

Regardless, it was not the focus of the article, it's just something I happened to see yesterday at that airport. And since they are showing TV, not departure schedules...

Well anyhow obviously people who have OLEDs but do not have issues get upset when the very real and proven issues that affect some people are discussed. They should simply click away and go read something more relaxing since it does not impact them.
 

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rtings does not run tests the same way i watch different content on oled at home, so rtings tests are not pointing out that the risk is real in practical usage scenario.
 

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Mark Henninger
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Discussion Starter #23 (Edited)
rtings does not run tests the same way i watch different content on oled at home, so rtings tests are not pointing out that the risk is real in practical usage scenario.
Apparently the risk is real enough for 7 percent of AVS members who took the poll to report it happening to them.

The evidence it is an issue at this point comes from many directions, not just one test or example.

(Edited, I had said 16 percent but I reread my own article and realized 16% referred to the Amazon reviews. 93% of AVS Forum poll respondents said no burn in.)
 

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Apparently the risk is real enough for 16 percent of AVS members who took the poll to report it happening to them.

The evidence it is an issue at this point comes from many directions, not just one test or example.
lol anyone can hit a yes button on a forum even if they did not own an oled, and the sample size on a forum poll is telling nothing.
 

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Mark Henninger
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Discussion Starter #25 (Edited)
lol anyone can hit a yes button on a forum even if they did not own an oled, and the sample size on a forum poll is telling nothing.
Yeah, that's why the other evidence matters. Not just the poll. :rolleyes:

Now if someone owns their own OLED that has no burn in, it's all the evidence they need. But dismissing others reported issues?
 

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Well, an airport full of LG OLEDs installed this year and they are all basically ruined and showing extremely severe issues is not totally off topic.

But yeah those panels are likely maxed out and running all day, so torture test.

The simple fact there are also an equal number of completely fine LCDs in the airport must mean something g to someone, even if it means little or nothing to you.

Regardless, it was not the focus of the article, it's just something I happened to see yesterday at that airport. And since they are showing TV, not departure schedules...

Well anyhow obviously people who have OLEDs but do not have issues get upset when the very real and proven issues that affect some people are discussed. They should simply click away and go read something more relaxing since it does not impact them.
I do not have an OLED. I own and still use a plasma screen. Anybody running an airport and choosing OLED screens as terminal screens is simply incompetent. It's not more complicated than this. What I meant is that airport use has seriously nothing in common with domestic use. Just that.

It's not that I get upset, it's more that I've already seen plasma being attacked for years on this subject and if that's not been the only reason that made the technology disappear, it surely has contributed. Has the AV world been better off because of it? I'd say no, considering that Kuros remained the reference point for... what it was? Four years after their demise?
I'd hate for history repeating itself with OLED, just that.
 

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Both my OLED TV's are ISF calibrated to 120cd/m2 light output. No problems what so ever. There's no reason to ever go over 120cd/m2 unless you want to watch your TV with a welding mask on.
Mr. Buck-Naked is correct. While I don't doubt the burn-in issue is real, my guess is that it's exacerbated by the very default setting that come with the TVs, which has trained the general public to assume a super-bright, poppy, Sony blue-push picture is the way to HD nirvana. (Also to blame for the publics erroneous assumptions: big box stores blasting the image into an overly bright showroom.)

As Buck-Naked stated, a properly calibrated TV in a somewhat light-controlled environment (as in the sun isn't blasting onto the screen) and using such recommendations as those by the THX company, should have a light output around 35fLs (or, to use more modern parlance, 120 nits).

Is this significantly darker than the general public assumes is correct? Definitely. But does this put us close to what the director/cinematographer/colorist, etc. intended. Absolutely.

It's simply a matter of getting used to it, rewiring our brains. Give those people who love "pop" a couple weeks with a properly calibrated TV and they'll grudgingly get used to it, even admit it looks better.

Even if the TV is calibrated for a brighter room environment and we go as high as 50fLs, we're still talking much darker than the default standard picture, which, on an OLED, has the OLED setting at 100. (Word to the wise to gentleman above who mentioned his OLED setting was 100...turn it down. Like well past 50.)

I remember plasma getting slammed for a similar burn-in argument, which was definitely one of the reasons it failed and inferior LED tech thrived. Let's not let that happen with the superior OLED tech.

Anyway, some final points:

1) i suspect a good portion of the burn-in could be avoided by not having the picture so improperly bright (turn down the OLED or, for LEDs, the backlight)

2) make sure you have any and all screen saver mechanisms turned on on the TV and any peripherals (Apple TV, Blu-ray, etc)

3) don't watch so much damn 24-hour news (MSNBC, CNN, FOX) with all those annoying chyrons and news tickers. Not only will it be better for your TV, it'll be good for your brain too. (24-hr news will invariably turn your brain into extreme left/extreme right mush. The world would be a much better place if we all hovered more towards the middle.

4) Consider getting your TV calibrated by a professional! (Yours truly—www.empiricalav.com—happily serves the Chicagoland area!)
 

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Mark Henninger
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Discussion Starter #28
I do not have an OLED. I own and still use a plasma screen. Anybody running an airport and choosing OLED screens as terminal screens is simply incompetent. It's not more complicated than this. What I meant is that airport use has seriously nothing in common with domestic use. Just that.

It's not that I get upset, it's more that I've already seen plasma being attacked for years on this subject and if that's not been the only reason that made the technology disappear, it surely has contributed. Has the AV world been better off because of it? I'd say no, considering that Kuros remained the reference point for... what it was? Four years after their demise?
I'd hate for history repeating itself with OLED, just that.
Well, context is needed. Samsung and LG have their TVs in the airport, mounted n Kiosks that advertise the brand and the tech (OLED vs. QLED) so it's not as if these are airport displays for arrival and departure bought by the airport.
 

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Yeah, that's why the other evidence matters. Not just the poll. :rolleyes:

Now if someone owns their own OLED that has no burn in, it's all the evidence they need. But dismissing others reported issues?
and that 'evidence' is not evident of mixed usage in a practical scenario, so im not paying heed to it, i never run ad loops or news channels more than a hour in one viewing session.

Have you been in South Korea? Looks like you were invited for coffee to Suwon by a certain company ;)
 

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Mark Henninger
Sony VPL-VW295ES, Denon AVR X8500H, GoldenEar SuperSub XXL, GoldenEar Triton 7 speakers, PS5 Pro
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Discussion Starter #30
Mr. Buck-Naked is correct. While I don't doubt the burn-in issue is real, my guess is that it's exacerbated by the very default setting that come with the TVs, which has trained the general public to assume a super-bright, poppy, Sony blue-push picture is the way to HD nirvana. (Also to blame for the publics erroneous assumptions: big box stores blasting the image into an overly bright showroom.)

As Buck-Naked stated, a properly calibrated TV in a somewhat light-controlled environment (as in the sun isn't blasting onto the screen) and using such recommendations as those by the THX company, should have a light output around 35fLs (or, to use more modern parlance, 120 nits).

Is this significantly darker than the general public assumes is correct? Definitely. But does this put us close to what the director/cinematographer/colorist, etc. intended. Absolutely.

It's simply a matter of getting used to it, rewiring our brains. Give those people who love "pop" a couple weeks with a properly calibrated TV and they'll grudgingly get used to it, even admit it looks better.

Even if the TV is calibrated for a brighter room environment and we go as high as 50fLs, we're still talking much darker than the default standard picture, which, on an OLED, has the OLED setting at 100. (Word to the wise to gentleman above who mentioned his OLED setting was 100...turn it down. Like well past 50.)

I remember plasma getting slammed for a similar burn-in argument, which was definitely one of the reasons it failed and inferior LED tech thrived. Let's not let that happen with the superior OLED tech.

Anyway, some final points:

1) i suspect a good portion of the burn-in could be avoided by not having the picture so improperly bright (turn down the OLED or, for LEDs, the backlight)

2) make sure you have any and all screen saver mechanisms turned on on the TV and any peripherals (Apple TV, Blu-ray, etc)

3) don't watch so much damn 24-hour news (MSNBC, CNN, FOX) with all those annoying chyrons and news tickers. Not only will it be better for your TV, it'll be good for your brain too. (24-hr news will invariably turn your brain into extreme left/extreme right mush. The world would be a much better place if we all hovered more towards the middle.

4) Consider getting your TV calibrated by a professional! (Yours truly—www.empiricalav.com—happily serves the Chicagoland area!)
Calibration to 100-120 nits assumes a dark room, just as movie theaters are dark. Running ISF 120-nit in a living room TV you watch with lights on or during the day looks better with more brightness and yes the calibration still matters as it will lock in the gamma and color.

But.nobody should be grudgingly admitting that a TV that's too dim for the ambient environment looks better than a brighter TV because it is not true.

And again that all completely ignores HDR.
 

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Mark Henninger
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Discussion Starter #31 (Edited)
and that 'evidence' is not evident of mixed usage in a practical scenario, so im not paying heed to it, i never run ad loops or news channels more than a hour in one viewing session.

Have you been in South Korea? Looks like you were invited for coffee to Suwon by a certain company ;)
Yeah I was there, indeed I just landed an hour ago in NYC.... and what I was doing is my own business, but feel free to speculate if it makes your Sunday more exciting.

As for the airport TVs, just saying what I saw. A bunch of ruined 2018 OLEDs. Some, very severe issues.

As you noted not typical home use, so feel free to ignore.

Others may see it as akin to accelerated testing on a sizable sample of screens and then note the correlation with what rtings is seeing.
 

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When we get reports from consumers who have used an OLED TV like a normal person would for a lengthy period of time, I think that will be much more instructive than TV's that are in airports or run 20 hours a day with CNN as the only programming material.
 

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Honestly, I feel the personal attacks towards Mark are most definitely too much (implying he's taking money from LCD producers, come on... :rolleyes:).
He's entitled to his opinion, he's seen displays used for advertising showing problems, he's reporting on it. There's nothing inherently bad with this.
 
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Mark Henninger
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Discussion Starter #34 (Edited)
When we get reports from consumers who have used an OLED TV like a normal person would for a lengthy period of time, I think that will be much more instructive than TV's that are in airports or run 20 hours a day with CNN as the only programming material.
None of them were playing CNN and there was different programming on the TVs, some had kids programs, some had news, some had game shows.

They do run all day and night presumably, so the accelerated usage would be about 5X that of a 5 hour per day viewer and 10X or more over a "movie a day" viewing habit and in reality an even higher rate since these TVs are likely maxed out for brightness while a home TV would likely not be.

Anyhow, for whatever it's worth, this is how the TVs were presented at the airport. Not exactly keeping the fact they are OLED a secret...

 

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Is this an article sponsored by Samsung? ;)

Well an OLED isn't an LCD, if they were we would use OLED as computer monitors everywhere due to the energy saving alone.

I have 0 burn in on my now 12month old 65" Panasonic. Also I don't use it as a computer monitor. I did that with my old Pioneer Kuro and surprise surprise it ended up with a burn in from the taskbar after a few years. Not that the burn in was visible if you actually watched anything on it besides a black screen.

I'm not the slightest worried that this OLED will let me down before it is time to upgrade to a MicroLED in 10 years time.
 

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I’m starting to get pissed off at these networks who always have there logo displayed. Anything static is probably a bad thing .
I see some networks have gone to a white logo,and you can see threw it . Hopefully this helps . History channel has a red and yellow logo, so I quit watching it and cnn
Yes, I can’t understand why they don’t do something about that. Meanwhile you can use the aspect ratio and zoom the picture every half hour or so to help not have image retention.

For me personally, I think I will keep the ZT65 plasma for now. I like to see who will win between Dolby Vision and HDR10+ and what does 2019 have in store.
 

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What amazes me is the fact that some people will complain about anything. This site is FREE for people to peruse and enjoy the site at will. That being said if you don't agree with a post as a lot of you don't agree with my lists then move on if you cant have normal conversation with actual good debates. My 2 cents. I personally think this is VERY informative and enjoy the posts very much.
 

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None of them were playing CNN and there was different programming on the TVs, some had kids programs, some had news, some had game shows.

They do run all day and night presumably, so the accelerated usage would be about 5X that of a 5 hour per day viewer and 10X or more over a "movie a day" viewing habit and in reality an even higher rate since these TVs are likely maxed out for brightness while a home TV would likely not be.

Anyhow, for whatever it's worth, this is how the TVs were presented at the airport. Not exactly keeping the fact they are OLED a secret...
My reference to CNN playing 20 hours was to the rtings tests. :)

As you say, the airport TV's are probably maxed out for brightness, and who knows what other factors might distinguish the sets in the airport and the burn-in rates on sets with "normal" home viewing.

Mind you, I'm not arguing that the OLED sets will never experience burn-in. It just seems to me that we tend to get overly concerned about the problem based on some results with sets that don't seem to mirror normal viewing conditions. If my OLED does experience burn-in after two or three years of normal use, well, I guess then I'll say "bummer, I guess those folks who prognosticated there might be burn-in issues with normal TV viewing were right." But until then, I'm not losing any sleep over what rtings tests and TV's in airports show. :)

Besides, don't studies show that the majority of things people spend time worrying about don't happen? :cool:
 

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Calibration to 100-120 nits assumes a dark room, just as movie theaters are dark. Running ISF 120-nit in a living room TV you watch with lights on or during the day looks better with more brightness and yes the calibration still matters as it will lock in the gamma and color.

But.nobody should be grudgingly admitting that a TV that's too dim for the ambient environment looks better than a brighter TV because it is not true.

And again that all completely ignores HDR.
Agree with the earlier poster who pointed out that some people are jumping on Mark in somewhat disagreeable ways. This is a fun forum. We can disagree and jibe from time to time but we can do it in good humor. LED v. OLED, just like plasma v. OLED will always elicit passionate responses. But let's have fun with it.

My quick 2-cent follow up to Mark's reply to my post.

To me—and I stress to me only—a TV calibrated to 35fL will appear plenty bright even in a room that's less than properly light controlled. (Remember that, ignoring HDR, movie theaters in a completely light controlled environment, based on THX standards (and the light output capability of projectors), are calibrated to 14-16fL.)

But again, IMHO.

For SDR I've calibrated my OLED with a dark room setting (35fL) and a bright room setting (50fL). But strangely, I still find myself leaning towards the dark room setting even when there's ambient light. (Note, when I say ambient light I'm referring to lights on rather than the sun gunning through a window.) But once more, this is all IMHO.

How bright one likes their picture is subjective. I like mine a touch on the dark side because I personally feel that the art of cinematography lies in the shadow detail, the darks, rather than the opposite end. I guess that makes me more a Vermeer guy than a Van Gogh guy.

Regards!
 
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